300tdi vs td5

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Originally Posted by justinc

What Slunnie mentions is right on the money. Sit in and then drive a D1 and then a D2 and you'll pick the D2 any day. In fact, most will have no real issues at all, even fewer problems in the post '02 models.

I remain convinced that despite the lack in power and torque, for remote area travelling a simple and non electronic dependent engine and trans(Auto) is the way to go. The reasons that JDNSW mentions are true, that there are precious few 'mechanics' willing to touch the later stuff for anything, some don't even want to service them!

Personal opinion;
I work on and consequently drive all these on a regular basis.
I would have a 2003 on(Upgraded lamps version) auto, chipped non ACE/SLS D2 in a flash for an everyday driver and local offf road stuff, but I would keep my Isuzu RR for outback towing and travel . It fills me with total confidence that RR, I know that I can leave home here and drive to the cape without lifting the bonnet or expecting any problems. The Defender. My other pick for outback touring. A 130 Tdi, they are geared low enough to be powerful enough with a decent load,they have an unbreakable chassis and suspension in standard trim is well up to it. They are also simple and not really unlike a series in many ways. The Td5 version again, great for local and 'mild' tourinhg, but still too complex for roadside DIY or local servo knowledge. A great pity as the power and torque of a chipped Td5 trransforms the 130 into a perfect tow vehicle.

Each person must choose their vehicle using a set of criteria specific to their own needs. Make yourself a list and honestly ask questions such as 'do I need heaps of power/ toerque, or is standard OK? and Do I need a decent A/C system, or at all? etc.

If it wasn't such a headache, I would build myself a 130 DC like the following; fit a new 4BD1T and a 5spd auto, rooftop aircon (Like Gerry's 110) some recaros and decent cabin soundproofing and that would be my ultimate outback tourer and work truck:cool:

Simple, Powerful/ torquey, quiet on the road, and comfortable.

JC

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As time passes and D3's start to age I bet we will be saying the same about D3's in a few years. However the D3 owners will be along soon to flame me, and state a D3 is more reliable than a D2 so to clarify( and before anyone gets their nickers in a twist ) that is not the point I am trying to make the point being with even fewer D3's selling than D2's there will be bugger all people around that will want to work on them out side capital cities. That's the price we pay for driving classic vehicle's more than a few years old that the masses don't or won't drive.

What a can of worms this is , go the Tdi;)

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Originally Posted by ak

As time passes and D3's start to age I bet we will be saying the same about D3's in a few years. However the D3 owners will be along soon to flame me, and state a D3 is more reliable than a D2 so to clarify( and before anyone gets their nickers in a twist ) that is not the point I am trying to make the point being with even fewer D3's selling than D2's there will be bugger all people around that will want to work on them out side capital cities. That's the price we pay for driving classic vehicle's more than a few years old that the masses don't or won't drive.

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Hey ak,
Don't you know that D3s are "bulletproof"? :D:D:D

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Originally Posted by ak

As time passes and D3's start to age I bet we will be saying the same about D3's in a few years. However the D3 owners will be along soon to flame me, and state a D3 is more reliable than a D2 so to clarify( and before anyone gets their nickers in a twist ) that is not the point I am trying to make the point being with even fewer D3's selling than D2's there will be bugger all people around that will want to work on them out side capital cities. That's the price we pay for driving classic vehicle's more than a few years old that the masses don't or won't drive.

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My thoughts are the opposite. At the end of the day, they are still just and engine, gearbox, diffs etc and they all still basically work in the same way. One has electronic control and one doesn't. As I understand it, although I may be corrected here, I thought that even within ECU's there is tending to become a standard communications/interrogation language between manufacturers which will make it easier for workshops to purchase computers for servicing. Workshops will do exactly the same mechanical stuff, although if they can't start doing ECU's and other auto electronics then they're going to go out of business eventually. The days of non-computer control are now history, and even Toyota weilding luddites have now been forced into electronic control for their motorsas the old 1HZ's now slowly die out. Interestingly, every issue that I've had (and generally which I have induced) in my TD5 have not related to any of the computers.

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Originally Posted by Taz

Being a Tdi owner - you will always find me in the left lane (slow lane) at the lights, not wanting to hold people up waiting for the turbo to spool up when they go green (I have a manual). And I luv getting 8lt/100km (sometimes low 7's).

But now I want to tow stuff. Heavy stuff. Sure the Tdi can do it. But I dont want to be that wally holding up traffic on long hills or into strong winds. And no amount of fuel pump mods or intercooler upgrades etc, etc will really fix that.

So my advice is dont get a Tdi if you plan to do heavy towing - you will eventually be frustrated, unless you dont care about other traffic and dont mind ambling along - in which case you will very happy indeed.

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I have never managed such economy, no wonder you hold up traffic. I can keep up with traffic most times except on hills when towing my 1000-1100 kg trailer. My father used to manage double my fuel economy in my 2A but he would travel at 80 kmh on the open road while I would travel at 110.

Jeff

:rocket:

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Originally Posted by Jeff

I have never managed such economy, no wonder you hold up traffic.

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Jeff - I'm certainly not a slow driver and I dont hold up traffic any more than any other man D1 off the lights. Yes my economy is better than most which I put down to the a recent engine rebuild and that my driving is mostly on country-ish roads. Even the LR claim low 7's in their documentation.

Since you raised the subject - I think John claimed the TD5 to be more efficient (although he add the disclaimer that he doesnt own a Tdi or TD5). I think emperical evidence suggests otherwise - search this forum and compare economy and my guess is that the Tdi is better by 1or2lt/100, which is not really significant, and may in fact to due to the TD5's pushing heaver bodies compared to the Tdi, at least in discovery form. So John may be correct is saying the engine itself is more efficient, but the bottom line for your wallet, at least for disco's, is that the Tdi is better.

Not in the Fender my mate has two Tdi 300's and both get about 11-12lt/100km and i get about 9.5lt/100km from a td5. we both drive very similar with speeds and just general driving manner.
Regards Adrian

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Originally Posted by Slunnie

I just couldn't live with the lack of power from the Tdi or the poor low down drivability. Really, if you want to keep up with the traffic, then the TD5 is the way to go - then chip and intercool it for some really good performance.


Despite what you read, really the only common problem with the TD5 is the oil in the injector loom. It's not an expensive cost to change it. Changing the injector loom happens at around the same interval as changing the timing belt on the Tdi or less depending. The rest of the TD5 problems you read about are not all that widespread at all, but they get thrown around forums like they happen every day to every owner where it is just not the case, and there are many TD5's getting around now with well over 200,000km and still going exceptionally strong and have never had anything done to them which is out of the ordinary - not even an injector loom. The TD5 I think will be a very long lived motor, evidence seems to be pointing in this direction as the TD5's age and the number of 200,000km+ D2's that are still very healthy. The Tdi I tend to think are getting tired at about 250,000km, although they do keep going beyond this depending on use, servicing and tolerance of the owner.

With the head problems, it will relate to engines that have been overheated or suffered a trauma. The dowel problem doesn't "just happen". The oil pump problem I understand was a handful of engines. Just about all of the TD5's that missed the loctite on the bolt still had the bolt done up tight enough to not cause problems. This will have been sorted by now if the vehicle has been serviced by LandRover or a specialist. The electronics are fine also. Not to say that they will never ever give problems, but again it's not the normal. I've been on a Disco2 chat group for australia and also globally for about 6 years now, and it is very rare to hear about problems like this amongst members - of whom are probably the hardest on the vehicles of all. The D2 will take a good solid dunking and still drive out on the other side of the river - the ECU is placed well and it stays dry. That said, there are a few other computers in the footwells - so be warned if you're deeper than sill deep.

Otherwise, you'll also get cruise, split climate, traction control, updated dash and interior, nicer seats, ACE, SLS, larger and usable boot space, excellent factory alarm system etc. Just sitting in a D2 and a D1 will make your mind up.

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Thats fair comment but someone like JustinC works on these things everyday and for my money, I would be doing pretty much exactly what he said.

Everyone loves their vehical and will try to defend their choice but the bottom line is that if your going remote then in my opinion and Justinc as well as others all lean away from the TD5 but some of what Slunnie says is right.

THe D2 is more comfortable, has more gadgets, has a little more power and will have less K's.

The D2 Doesnt have as much flex without mods, doesnt have Alloy body panes, has more rear overhang, Is much heavier, is more difficult to get simple things like tyres for (I dont know any country tyre dealer who would keep D2 tyres on the shelf as with D3) yet I run 235 85 16's for the reason that I could even buy a BFG AT KO in that size pretty much anywhere in OZ.

As Justin also said, they are great for around town and for the odd family 4wding trip, not going to far away from civilisation but Im with him, I would have an Isuzu RR anyday but I dont have any reason yet to get rid of the Disco.

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Originally Posted by Taz

Being a Tdi owner - you will always find me in the left lane (slow lane) at the lights, not wanting to hold people up waiting for the turbo to spool up when they go green (I have a manual). But ya get used to it.... it has never had me desiring more power. Sure I've played with the fueling on mine - more for the sake of experimentation than anything else. And I luv getting 8lt/100km (sometimes low 7's), and the simplicity and reliability that others have mentioned. It's a great donk for long distance touring and off-road work.

But now I want to tow stuff. Heavy stuff. Sure the Tdi can do it. But I dont want to be that wally holding up traffic on long hills or into strong winds. And no amount of fuel pump mods or intercooler upgrades etc, etc will really fix that.

So my advice is dont get a Tdi if you plan to do heavy towing - you will eventually be frustrated, unless you dont care about other traffic and dont mind ambling along - in which case you will very happy indeed.

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I really think you need to check your figures a bit closer as with the quality of fuel in OZ and unless you only drive down hill, never stop and start, only drive with a tail wind and have no mods at all I dont see anyway of getting into the 7's with a 300TDI unless your running LPG fumigation.

Check your figures against a GPS for your distance setting and use the same pump at the same servo to give your self the best chance of getting it fairly acurate.

With my recovery equipment, tools, roof rack, bull bar, winch, tent, lift and taller tyres I am a little slower than the traffic off the line but as soon as boost kicks in im with them no worries and with the mods and add ons my economy suffers for it but Im carrying a fair bit of weight all the time so Im not surprised it is slow and a bit heavy on juice.

I dont find the 300TDI slow at all, mine struggles to hold 100kmh going up hills but on say the Hume and sitting on 110 it seems to hold it's speed better with a few more revs and tops out at 145kmh (when NT had no speed limits) humming along at about 3600RPM quite happilly.

I dont think you really need anymore than that other than when your over taking, that is the only time I would like a bit more go.

The D2 suspension is very different to the D1/Def/RRC etc. The front is in principle the same, though LR have improved the design of the radius arms to increase flex over the classics. They've done this buy using a hinge at the chassis and larger bushes at the axle which is where the real gains have been made due to their increased crushability when articulating. The rear though they have tightened up and it's not as freely articulating as the classics with the A-frame setup. The D2 now has a very similar setup as to what the front has, except it uses a watts linkage rather than a panhard. The supension articulation if the D2 does not have ACE is pretty tight and there have been quite a few people fit disconnects to regain about 5" of extra articulation travel. Those D2's that did come with ACE flex really well, and I didn't think they lacked anything compared to the classics at all, though I'd have to find the LROCV ramp day statistics a few days ago to check that.

The door skins are steel, which apparently BMW ordered to improve the panel fit/gap. The rest except the roof are still alloy.

The D2 runs the same tyre size as other Discos being 235/70-16 for most, wit 255/65-16 for those that like fats. Those that were optioned with 18" rims are a bit odd though. Interestingly though, the D2 with a bullbar can be fitted with no mod's and no guard cutting (although 2" lift would be nice but not necessary) any tyre up to a 32" including 265/75-16 (7or8" rims) and 235/85-16 (7" rims). Just whack them on and off you go - after inverting the spare tyre carrier. That gives you the option of running other common sizes such 245/75-16 (7or8" rims), or Landcruiser/Patrol spec 265/70-16 (7or8" rims).

It does have more overhang though. It's a balance between boot space and departure angle. There have been a few rear bars torn off when the going gets tough though!