spring retainers vs dislocation cones

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Originally Posted by discowhite

ive got a cure for that! safari guard 3 link kit. just have to find the time to fit it. then you can enlighten me on the ins and outs of roll stiffness and unsprung weight etc.;)

ive found it harder to get the front working in the 90 than the disco, think its a wheel base thing...

cheers phil

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What Slunnie says regarding the rear end and tying it down to a degree is pretty true.
If one end isn't working, stiffen the roll resistance, either with spring or bar (or restricting travel) at the other end and it forces the opposite end to work.
Ideally you want to soften the end that isn't working, but that can be an engineering challenge, so I think that balance is often a better compromise.

It's amazing how a 130 front end will work if you ditch the anti-roll bars due to the stiff rear end. With stock springs front and rear and stock ARB's, the suspension is pretty balanced (in rough terms of roll resistance and articulation), and was far more comfortable off road than our Patrol.
Yet taking the ARB's off lets the front end flex a lot more, particularly with the longer springs and shocks, but you tend to get thrown around more violently on very uneven ground, but obviously articulation and ultimately traction is much better.
I still want to try slightly longer-softer main springs in the back of the 130 with air bags interlinked with a solenoid valve between the bags that I can open off road.

The most comfortable stock 4wd at crawl speeds I ever drove off road was my old Jeep CJ6.
It used a narrow, parallel railed chassis with underslung leaf springs with identical spring rates front and rear. The distance between the springs was very narrow and the same front and rear and the damn thing had fearsome body roll on road, but the chassis stayed nice and level off road with the front and rear axles just articulating up and down underneath you, as long as you were within the limits of travel.

I love the shots here Bill's LRs - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum of Bill Larman's vehicle, and it uses dislocation, but it also uses narrow based springs to achieve it.

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Originally Posted by rick130

The MTB is a fairly light Giant NRS XC bike with a fairly eclectic mix of bits, including a nice Chris King wheelset I built up a few years back.
The roadie is an older Cannondale from about seven years ago. It's their old Paris-Roubaix frame with a Headshock/carbon leg front fork (15mm of hydraulically damped travel !) Hügi hubs and Dura-Ace/Ultegra bits. I had to rebuild the rear wheel in December when some monumental chain suck wiped out the rear derailleur, frame tip and all the spokes on the drive side.
That's only supposed to happen on the MTB !

Dougal and I used to hang out on the same MTB forum, me on the Weight Weenies board and Dougal on the shock and brake boards.
I stick to XC as my technical skills are non existant. :D

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Cool. I used to ride with a guy who had an NRS Air - was an awesome bike, magnesium spokes and rims, XTR everything, weighed 8kg!!! We were doing more and more DH/FR type stuff though, and he was breaking so many super expensive bits each ride that he bought an AC1. I have a Big Hit DH (set up for freeriding). A bit on the heavy side, but I love it.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

Cool. I used to ride with a guy who had an NRS Air - was an awesome bike, magnesium spokes and rims, XTR everything, weighed 8kg!!! We were doing more and more DH/FR type stuff though, and he was breaking so many super expensive bits each ride that he bought an AC1. I have a Big Hit DH (set up for freeriding). A bit on the heavy side, but I love it.

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I had a Bighit DH with the BETD rear end on it. Could take a 26" rear wheel and pushed it out to about 9" of travel.
But the BETD kit wasn't that well thought out, it extended the wheelbase too much rearwards for no real reason (could have been 2" shorter). Your weight was so far over the front that it was almost impossible to get the front wheel up. It was very fast but gave that feeling of being stuck on a runaway toboggan.

I then moved to a place with no downhilling, so I sold it and bought another turner. Now I have two, one built for trail riding (6" each end, upright riding position maybe 15kg) and one built for fun (7" DC forks, rearward riding position, heavier wheels, bigger tyres etc). It doesn't get used much, but it's still a keeper.

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Originally Posted by rick130

What Slunnie says regarding the rear end and tying it down to a degree is pretty true.
If one end isn't working, stiffen the roll resistance, either with spring or bar (or restricting travel) at the other end and it forces the opposite end to work.
Ideally you want to soften the end that isn't working, but that can be an engineering challenge, so I think that balance is often a better compromise.

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yep i ve done that, ive swapped the spring rates round from front to back. weaker in the front and stiffer in the front. the oe front was 170lb and the rear was 240-280lb progressive, after weighing the 90 i found the split weights were very close, as in 50kg heavier in the front.
so i now have 220lb in the front and 180lb in the rear. this has worked far better than stock (same shocks) and the actual feedback from driving was brilliant.

cheers phil

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Originally Posted by discowhite

ive got a cure for that! safari guard 3 link kit. just have to find the time to fit it. then you can enlighten me on the ins and outs of roll stiffness and unsprung weight etc.;)

ive found it harder to get the front working in the 90 than the disco, think its a wheel base thing...

cheers phil

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Sorry to go off topic guys, just a question to Phil, the 3 link setup, will that affect your touring ability especially when towing the trailer.

I know it will help greatly offroad, but what about touring, won't this be a little unstable at hwy speeds?

Baz.

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Originally Posted by Dougal

I had a Bighit DH with the BETD rear end on it. Could take a 26" rear wheel and pushed it out to about 9" of travel.
But the BETD kit wasn't that well thought out, it extended the wheelbase too much rearwards for no real reason (could have been 2" shorter). Your weight was so far over the front that it was almost impossible to get the front wheel up. It was very fast but gave that feeling of being stuck on a runaway toboggan.

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They've possibly done that to keep the front end glued when going quick.
I hate that feeling of the front end washing out, possibly why I've always tried to run at least a 2.3" tyre on the front, even though I was a confirmed gram counter.
I don't like gravel rash.....

Anyone into downhill/freeride will laugh, as it's really unfashionable these days, but I've stuck with a shorter top tube/longer stem (an 130mm Extralite, beautifully Italian crafted), but try buying one that length these days ! Everyone is into long top tubes/short stems, but I don't really buy it.
I sit a long way behind the BB and the long stem keeps some weight over the nose on the climbs with a slightly slack front end (for an XC bike) and does the same on single track.

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I then moved to a place with no downhilling, so I sold it and bought another turner. Now I have two, one built for trail riding (6" each end, upright riding position maybe 15kg) and one built for fun (7" DC forks, rearward riding position, heavier wheels, bigger tyres etc). It doesn't get used much, but it's still a keeper.

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What ! it must be the only place in En Zed without hills :eek:

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Originally Posted by Redback

Sorry to go off topic guys, just a question to Phil, the 3 link setup, will that affect your touring ability especially when towing the trailer.

I know it will help greatly offroad, but what about touring, won't this be a little unstable at hwy speeds?

Baz.

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Geez Baz d'you think this is a Landy forum or something !!

Personally I'd either stay stock or engineer a four link plus Panhard or Watts link (harder) as it's much more stable and can flex like there's no tomorrow. Just look at all the pictures of XJ Cherokees and Wranglers with slightly modified front ends, they flex well, far better than any stock type Rover can hope to achieve and can still drive straight on the road.
Renault did well when they designed that front end for AMC/Jeep in the early eighties.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

Cool. I used to ride with a guy who had an NRS Air - was an awesome bike, magnesium spokes and rims, XTR everything, weighed 8kg!!! We were doing more and more DH/FR type stuff though, and he was breaking so many super expensive bits each ride that he bought an AC1. I have a Big Hit DH (set up for freeriding). A bit on the heavy side, but I love it.

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Think it might have been heavier than 8kg, that's road bike territory. Probably around 10-10.8kg. ;)
The wheels would be Mavic Crossmax's with big thick bladed Zircal (aluminium) spokes. Pretty light, pretty stiff and look great and cost a fortune to repair.
The younger brother of my LBS (320km away) owner broke a couple of CrossMax spokes and Andy only weighs about 68kg wringing wet. It also took a while to get them out of Mavic, and IIRC you need special tools.


When I built my wheelset it was lighter than any Crossmax wheelset at the time as I went truly overboard and used Sapim C-Xray bladed spokes and Mavic's then best XC rim. I could've gone lighter on the hubs (American Classic and Hugi) but I wanted CK's.
There are lighter offerings off the shelf now, but mine is strong, I built them and the CK rear hub howls like nothing else :D

Whenever Vickie would go back to Sydney to coach or compete, I'd always take the bikes and hook up with a mate, Rob for an early morning blast through the mountains near his home at Faulconbridge. One of the fella's that regularly rode with us was a high school teacher and Terry would always try the difficult line, the big drop off the rock, etc.
Rob saw the look in my eye one day and said don't even think about it. Terry will be paid even if he breaks something big time, whereas we work for ourselves. If we break something we don't eat.

It's made me a coward ever since. :(

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Originally Posted by rick130

Geez Baz d'you think this is a Landy forum or something !!

Personally I'd either stay stock or engineer a four link plus Panhard or Watts link (harder) as it's much more stable and can flex like there's no tomorrow. Just look at all the pictures of XJ Cherokees and Wranglers with slightly modified front ends, they flex well, far better than any stock type Rover can hope to achieve and can still drive straight on the road.
Renault did well when they designed that front end for AMC/Jeep in the early eighties.

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Well i thought it was:D

I asked mainly because Phil is going to a 3 link setup, my understanding was (and i'm no expert in this area by a long shot) this would not be good as a touring setup, add a trailer into the mix and it would be even more unstable (ie) having even less feel from the front end.

Baz.

Maybe one of the mods should move the MTB stuff to another thread... so the landie nuts can continue talking 3-links :D

Dougal - the longer wheelbase is the reason I haven't bought a BETD link. But the other detriments don't sound good. I am happy with the 24" rear, and the way I can get my weight right back when I need to (I am 6'3" and have a medium frame - the other guys once joked that I looked like I was trying to brake with my but cheeks on one section). Mine is a custom build (bought an unused spare frame from a DH racer) - boXXer forks, mavic front rim, dice rear, hayes Mag 8" brakes, XT shifters/mechs, etc...

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Originally Posted by rick130

Think it might have been heavier than 8kg, that's road bike territory. Probably around 10-10.8kg. ;)

Whenever Vickie would go back to Sydney to coach or compete, I'd always take the bikes and hook up with a mate, Rob for an early morning blast through the mountains near his home at Faulconbridge. One of the fella's that regularly rode with us was a high school teacher and Terry would always try the difficult line, the big drop off the rock, etc.
Rob saw the look in my eye one day and said don't even think about it. Terry will be paid even if he breaks something big time, whereas we work for ourselves. If we break something we don't eat.

It's made me a coward ever since. :(

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I never weighed the bike. But the guy claimed that the NRS "Air" was the race/team model, and there were only a few in the country. He claimed it weighed 8.5kg - and that seemed about right using my hand/arm scales ;) - but maybe it was more like 9.5.
I think you are right about the rims.