Making a diesel Range Rover

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Originally Posted by geo41

Two reasons:

1. The 2.5 litre engine is hardly enough to pull the RR over the Gateway bridge, let alone tow a caravan in off-highway hilly and outback roads. Might as well put in a 300TDi.
2. That will be an auto transmission I believe.

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A mate of mine has had 4.6 v8 p38's and recently got sick of feeding them. He bought the diesel and tells me it's just as quick up hills as the v8.
It's only if you rev the tits off the v8 that it pulls ahead and few can afford to keep doing that these days.

The 3 litre BMW engine from the L322 has been successfully retrofitted into P38's, and by all accounts seems to transform the drivability of the car, lots more power, lots more torque.

You might also consider a Td5? They work with the R380, and all the issues are well enough known you shouldn't be seen stuck with it, they're also quite tunable to the tune of your wish for 380nm of torque.
sticking with the R380 as a manual box makes some sense as you know it'll fit in the car, have selectors where they need to be, and a decent range of bellhousings available off the shelf.

Of course the main issue converting a P38 (especially with a mechanical diesel) is attaching enough electronics to the new engine so as the old ECU still thinks it's running the show and keeps the BCM happy.

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Originally Posted by geo41

Good tip from finallyrangie on emissions and on 2.8 TGV. Am I going to be able to buy one of those as cheaply as a 4BD1T? I think not by a long shot but it will fit up a lot more easily so might not be so bad for the budget. It's still a tiny engine (defined as less than 3 litres) and I presume that torque only comes when the turbo is full speed, otherwise it's struggling eg hill starts from lights etc. Is it a bit peaky in the torque ie narrow torque band? My experience is that towing a caravan is best done with engine volume, not turbo spin.

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maximum torque is at 1400 rpm so not peaky at all, but you are quite right, not a cheap option, I only did it because a red P plater was kind enough to make the engine in my disco available for transplant, just bear in mind that things are changing quickly in the diesel world and smaller engines are not the same as they used to be, variable geometry turbos make a huge difference to drivability, even at low revs, 4BD1T would still be a good option if you can make it work though

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Originally Posted by DasLandRoverMan

The 3 litre BMW engine from the L322 has been successfully retrofitted into P38's, and by all accounts seems to transform the drivability of the car, lots more power, lots more torque.

You might also consider a Td5? They work with the R380, and all the issues are well enough known you shouldn't be seen stuck with it, they're also quite tunable to the tune of your wish for 380nm of torque.
sticking with the R380 as a manual box makes some sense as you know it'll fit in the car, have selectors where they need to be, and a decent range of bellhousings available off the shelf.

Of course the main issue converting a P38 (especially with a mechanical diesel) is attaching enough electronics to the new engine so as the old ECU still thinks it's running the show and keeps the BCM happy.

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The firm (BodyLogic?) which supplies the kits for this (L322) engine transplant seem to have sorted it very well. However the costs in A$ are enormous (A$12k min for the kit, then you need to secure an engine plus ancillaries, send your engine wiring loom to the uk for adaption.... you'd be lucky to get out of it for under $20k all up.... I seriously considered this option but it is just not economical. If you lived in the UK , earning Uk pounds and had access to a greater supply of engines etc, then maybe...but not 'downunder' .... I also considered the BMW 2.5 diesel 6cyl. Apparently there is a relatively inexpensive remap plus larger intercooler available which improves its performance considerably

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Originally Posted by finallyrangie

maximum torque is at 1400 rpm so not peaky at all, but you are quite right, not a cheap option, I only did it because a red P plater was kind enough to make the engine in my disco available for transplant, just bear in mind that things are changing quickly in the diesel world and smaller engines are not the same as they used to be, variable geometry turbos make a huge difference to drivability, even at low revs, 4BD1T would still be a good option if you can make it work though

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Yes, I have to admit that small diesels are better now than small diesels used to be. But a friend recently hired a mobile home thing built on a VW delivery van chassis and equipped with a hard-working 2.2 litre TD engine I believe. Sluggish he said. Struggled to get up the gentle slope to Stanthorpe. Trucks were passing him. So I am wary of small diesels combined with heavy loads. Maybe they're OK if the vehicle is empty. And certainly not pulling a caravan.

Love those red P-platers. They are exempt from speed limits, red lights, indicator signals, following too close, just about everything really.

There's a few people made the 'Td6' work in the P38 and a few other applications using its own management system without using the Simtek kit which makes it considerably cheaper, more so if you could get the engine out of a BMW rather than an L322.

The Td5 is also a fairly uncomplicated option and can be set up to run independently of anything else with the ecu set properly. A quick look round also suggests you could pick up a Td5 locally for a lot less than $12k, and if you really wanted a complete engine, box and everything else you needed out of the UK for less than $5k.

With his 2.8 conversion finallyrangie should be able to tell you what's needed to keep the BCM happy to boot.

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Originally Posted by geo41

Yes, I have to admit that small diesels are better now than small diesels used to be. But a friend recently hired a mobile home thing built on a VW delivery van chassis and equipped with a hard-working 2.2 litre TD engine I believe. Sluggish he said. Struggled to get up the gentle slope to Stanthorpe. Trucks were passing him. So I am wary of small diesels combined with heavy loads. Maybe they're OK if the vehicle is empty. And certainly not pulling a caravan.

Love those red P-platers. They are exempt from speed limits, red lights, indicator signals, following too close, just about everything really.

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Sounds like you haven't driven any modern diesels.

VW don't have a 2.2 diesel. Plenty of 2 litres and then 2.5 in their vans. The 2.5 litres were doing ~400Nm of torque almost 10 years ago. I have a 2.0tdi VAG engined car, it's got better factory power and torque figures than a TD5 or 4BD1T and the hop-up list is truely endless.
At 1500-2500rpm in factory tune my 2.0tdi put out more power and torque than the 3.9/4.0 V8 petrols at the same rpm.

I think you need some real experience and not making decisions off hearsay and numbers on paper.

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Sounds like you haven't driven any modern diesels.

VW don't have a 2.2 diesel. Plenty of 2 litres and then 2.5 in their vans. The 2.5 litres were doing ~400Nm of torque almost 10 years ago. I have a 2.0tdi VAG engined car, it's got better factory power and torque figures than a TD5 or 4BD1T and the hop-up list is truely endless.
At 1500-2500rpm in factory tune my 2.0tdi put out more power and torque than the 3.9/4.0 V8 petrols at the same rpm.

I think you need some real experience and not making decisions off hearsay and numbers on paper.

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Well Dougal me old sparring partner, I began this thread so that I could benefit from other people's experience. I didn't expect put-downs and superior attitude. OK, it was a 2.5 litre VW. That's worse. It was a poor performer no matter what size the engine and that was a modest size mobile home, not a RR pulling a caravan. In my 73 years on this planet I have had more than average experience with diesel engines in 4, 5, and 6 cylinder configurations, with and without turbo-chargers, from less than 2 litres to more than 11 litres. The last modern diesel engined vehicle I drove was this afternoon. Little engines with big torque specs are suspect, when those numbers only apply to ideal conditions on the test bench. For example, when your engine has been idling and the turbo has run down, and the lights turn green and you are doing a hill start with close to two tonnes of caravan hooked up you realize that the little sewing-machine engine can't do the job for you. So you grab for low range, get through the intersection, find a place to stop after the hill has leveled out a bit and get it back into high range. Then you vow to have a bigger engine in the next vehicle.

But to return to the project that I opened the thread with, thank you to DasLandRoverMan who has provided very useful if sobering thoughts regarding ECUs and the like, which was one of my original concerns. There may not be a workable solutions to the problems that the electronics will present.

But to avoid irritating Dougal again I think I might do a lot better on one or two of the UK sites. I won't persevere any more with this thread.

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Originally Posted by geo41

Well Dougal me old sparring partner, I began this thread so that I could benefit from other people's experience. I didn't expect put-downs and superior attitude. OK, it was a 2.5 litre VW. That's worse. It was a poor performer no matter what size the engine and that was a modest size mobile home, not a RR pulling a caravan. In my 73 years on this planet I have had more than average experience with diesel engines in 4, 5, and 6 cylinder configurations, with and without turbo-chargers, from less than 2 litres to more than 11 litres. The last modern diesel engined vehicle I drove was this afternoon. Little engines with big torque specs are suspect, when those numbers only apply to ideal conditions on the test bench. For example, when your engine has been idling and the turbo has run down, and the lights turn green and you are doing a hill start with close to two tonnes of caravan hooked up you realize that the little sewing-machine engine can't do the job for you. So you grab for low range, get through the intersection, find a place to stop after the hill has leveled out a bit and get it back into high range. Then you vow to have a bigger engine in the next vehicle.

But to return to the project that I opened the thread with, thank you to DasLandRoverMan who has provided very useful if sobering thoughts regarding ECUs and the like, which was one of my original concerns. There may not be a workable solutions to the problems that the electronics will present.

But to avoid irritating Dougal again I think I might do a lot better on one or two of the UK sites. I won't persevere any more with this thread.

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You've got a thread full of people trying to help and now you're throwing your toys over a scenario you made up about vehicles with engines you haven't driven.

I have been in VW 2.5 diesel campervans (4-5 ton) and been seriously impressed with their get up and go. You haven't and have decided they're rubbish.

Sounds you you really need and deserve a chev 6.5 v8 diesel.:angel: