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Thread: 99 130 4BD1T conversion

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Brisbane, Queensland
    Posts
    4,300
    No idea on diff/sump clearance or bonnet/tappet cover clearance.
    L322 tdv8 poverty pack - wow
    Perentie 110 wagon ARN 49-107 (probably selling) turbo, p/steer, RFSV front axle/trutrack, HF, gullwing windows, double jerrys etc.
    Perentie 110 wagon ARN 48-699 another project
    Track Trailer ARN 200-117
    REMLR # 137

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Batemans Bay mostly, and Brisbane
    Posts
    224
    I used perentie chassis mounts. They are an odd looking thing but not particularly so when in-situ. Having watched engineers and engine fitters as a kid, the old way is to hang the engine in place and cut fit tack steel plates with the engine in place- much like what Murray describes in his V8 initial conversion.

    With regard to gearing, I'm perfectly happy running 235/85/16 on an LT95a box. On a straight, my rig will sit on 140km max possibly more. These things weren't made for much over 100 and my gearing and fuel economy at that rate (100km/h) is very respectable at 11 litres per 100km.

    Really from all I have read and heard, I am not convinced that the MSA five speed is really necessary. Just my two bobs worth.

    Cheers
    steu

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Hunter Valley NSW
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Svengali0 View Post
    I used perentie chassis mounts. They are an odd looking thing but not particularly so when in-situ. Having watched engineers and engine fitters as a kid, the old way is to hang the engine in place and cut fit tack steel plates with the engine in place- much like what Murray describes in his V8 initial conversion.

    With regard to gearing, I'm perfectly happy running 235/85/16 on an LT95a box. On a straight, my rig will sit on 140km max possibly more. These things weren't made for much over 100 and my gearing and fuel economy at that rate (100km/h) is very respectable at 11 litres per 100km.

    Really from all I have read and heard, I am not convinced that the MSA five speed is really necessary. Just my two bobs worth.

    Cheers
    steu
    I find this interesting considering I have yet to drag home a gearbox.

    Is this with a 4BD1 or 4BD1T? I take it you have the high ratio gears?

    With 3.54 diffs, 1.11 (LT95) high range gears and 235/85's you should be spinning at 2615rpm in 4th to do 100kph....is this your set up?

    Are there lower gears (numercially) for the LT95?

    Cheers,

    Jason

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Darwin
    Posts
    1,239
    Hi Fubar, watching this thread with interest. Certainly will be a long thread if you include the Europe/Africa 'road test' of your work. Jealous!

    I'm confused over what gearbox broke in an earlier post in this thread?

    When I bought my Outcast adaptor case and shaft it cost $3k. The shaft was SAE10 spline into transfer case input gear. They were going to keep manufacturing the shaft, but not the case. Most considered the case too expensive so not many buyers. Plus, if cases were to be continued, there was the hassle of getting small production runs fitted into a professional CNC manufacturers routine production schedule. You can see all this kit in my thread.

    When Sheldon came up with his adaptor shaft I opted to buy one. I will continue to use the Outcast adaptor case. The Outcast shaft will sit in my spares when I go to Tassie ()

    Sheldon now casts, himself, his adaptor casings, rather than fabricating from steel.

    The shaft Sheldon produces has moved away from LRovers conventional SE 10 spline, instead using (in my case) 32 splines into transfer case input gear. You will have to buy a modified LT230 input gear to suit, machined to remove the 10 spline and re-cut to 32 spline, also from Sheldon. You can get these reworked gears from Sheldon in the 1:1002 ratio.

    Note, going from 1:122 to 1:1002 means no longer being able to remove the 1.22 from the case for inspection. Any issues with the gear requires transfer case off. See Vern's Tasmanian campaign.

    The Sheldon shaft cost me $900. Took quite a few months for it to get made. Sent him a lead slug casting of the original drive flange that came with with my MSA. This was to ensure Sheldon had a good idea of the gearbox output shaft design - seems there is some variance in gearbox output shaft specifications. Now that he and his machinist have a better idea of manufacturing costs, ie how many shafts they get per cutter, Sheldon told me new shafts will cost a bit more.

    Assuming you are going MSA, but not divorced. If you want to save some cash, and are capable, then I would buy a Sheldon shaft/input gear and make the adaptor case. To me the shaft is a far harder proposition, to procure from someone else or manufacture yourself (unless your Ancient Mariner. Again jealous).

    As Vern pointed out, the gearstick I made is too close to the RRClassic dash, so I may have to make another. Can't promise at this stage, but I may not need the current gearstick I made for my MSA. I based it on Sheldon's design, for a Defender I think, but with some modifications to linkages. The next one I make will be different again (apart from not hitting the RRC dash) - I will provide shaft support both sides of the lever, using some of the concepts you see in the transfer case lever.

    If you decide on buying from Sheldon, get in earlier than later - from conversations he always seems to be getting busier!

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    West Victoria
    Posts
    679
    Quote Originally Posted by rijidij View Post
    I've been playing around with the engine mounts, they're actually tricky little buggers to get right, there's only a couple of square corners and none of the components are perpendicular to each other.
    Anyway, I finally got a jig made using my factory Isuzu chassis as a jig for the jig But the jig is only to get the design right, I've designed them in a way that you wont need a jig to fit them. If you look at the attached pictures, all you will need to do is make sure the mounts are 10mm from the forward brace, and sitting hard against the top and vertical faces of the chassis.
    I remember when I did my Isuzu conversion years ago on my V8 County. I hung the engine and gearbox in place to measure up the mounts, so it was very time consuming.

    I don't know if the mounts will suit a Rangie conversion. Are the chassis rails the same width apart as a Defender ? There could also be issues with how high the engine sits in regards to the bonnet etc. If the chassis rails are the same width, there's a good chance they would save you a lot of measuring and fabrication time, even if you had to cut the top wing off to drop them. In between the chassis rails on my County chassis is 631mm.
    I'm not doing these as a profit making exercise, so I think $120+post per pair would cover my costs for laser cutting, welding and a bit of time.

    Cheers, Murray

    My Rangie chassis is the same measurement but it doesn't have the forward brace like yours, only the rear brace. Can you take a measurement from the rear of the mount to the rear brace?

    Bonnet clearance won't be a problem as I have a LRA 63mm body lift going in, don't know about the diff clearance, will have to wait and see.

    PM sent
    Neale


    89 Range Rover Classic (Black Thunder)
    93 200tdi Disco,(OGRE)
    93 V8 Disco, (BLATT) Future Rangie ute
    96 300tdi Disco, DEAD MOTOR
    95 VS Commodore
    12 VE II Commodore Ute DD

  6. #56
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    South West Rocks
    Posts
    6,528
    Quote Originally Posted by Fubar View Post
    I find this interesting considering I have yet to drag home a gearbox.

    Is this with a 4BD1 or 4BD1T? I take it you have the high ratio gears?

    With 3.54 diffs, 1.11 (LT95) high range gears and 235/85's you should be spinning at 2615rpm in 4th to do 100kph....is this your set up?

    Are there lower gears (numercially) for the LT95?

    Cheers,

    Jason
    I have found in the past that when driving 4bd1t's with the lt95, 35's, and 3.54 diff gears and .996 tcase ratios i was still looking for 5th gear.
    My msa conversion (msa5r and 1.192 tcase) is sooo much better.
    Damien
    ------------------------------------------------

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Hay Point
    Posts
    3,670
    Have to say I am a fan of the old 4 speed LT95A. 6X6 with 3.54 diffs and 0.996 transfer ratio = 2400 rpm at 100k/hr which is quite comfortable for the 4BD1T. In my opinion not worth the money to do all the changes to go the MSA/LT230 way. Also not feasible in a 6X6 unless you bastardise an LT95 case to get the transfer case off it so you can still have 6WD.
    Cheers......Brian
    1985 110 V8 County
    1998 110 Perentie GS Cargo 6X6 ARN 202516 (Brutus)

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Hunter Valley NSW
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by workingonit View Post
    Hi Fubar, watching this thread with interest. Certainly will be a long thread if you include the Europe/Africa 'road test' of your work. Jealous!

    I'm confused over what gearbox broke in an earlier post in this thread?

    When I bought my Outcast adaptor case and shaft it cost $3k. The shaft was SAE10 spline into transfer case input gear. They were going to keep manufacturing the shaft, but not the case. Most considered the case too expensive so not many buyers. Plus, if cases were to be continued, there was the hassle of getting small production runs fitted into a professional CNC manufacturers routine production schedule. You can see all this kit in my thread.

    When Sheldon came up with his adaptor shaft I opted to buy one. I will continue to use the Outcast adaptor case. The Outcast shaft will sit in my spares when I go to Tassie ()

    Sheldon now casts, himself, his adaptor casings, rather than fabricating from steel.

    The shaft Sheldon produces has moved away from LRovers conventional SE 10 spline, instead using (in my case) 32 splines into transfer case input gear. You will have to buy a modified LT230 input gear to suit, machined to remove the 10 spline and re-cut to 32 spline, also from Sheldon. You can get these reworked gears from Sheldon in the 1:1002 ratio.

    Note, going from 1:122 to 1:1002 means no longer being able to remove the 1.22 from the case for inspection. Any issues with the gear requires transfer case off. See Vern's Tasmanian campaign.

    The Sheldon shaft cost me $900. Took quite a few months for it to get made. Sent him a lead slug casting of the original drive flange that came with with my MSA. This was to ensure Sheldon had a good idea of the gearbox output shaft design - seems there is some variance in gearbox output shaft specifications. Now that he and his machinist have a better idea of manufacturing costs, ie how many shafts they get per cutter, Sheldon told me new shafts will cost a bit more.

    Assuming you are going MSA, but not divorced. If you want to save some cash, and are capable, then I would buy a Sheldon shaft/input gear and make the adaptor case. To me the shaft is a far harder proposition, to procure from someone else or manufacture yourself (unless your Ancient Mariner. Again jealous).

    As Vern pointed out, the gearstick I made is too close to the RRClassic dash, so I may have to make another. Can't promise at this stage, but I may not need the current gearstick I made for my MSA. I based it on Sheldon's design, for a Defender I think, but with some modifications to linkages. The next one I make will be different again (apart from not hitting the RRC dash) - I will provide shaft support both sides of the lever, using some of the concepts you see in the transfer case lever.

    If you decide on buying from Sheldon, get in earlier than later - from conversations he always seems to be getting busier!

    Workingonit,

    Thanks for the deluge of knowledge...some great info there. Are you referring to one of my posts re gearbox breakage? My R380 lost 5th...but thats all.

    The divorced case appears to be the simplest, cheapest and most field repair friendly option, though will take up a good chunk of leisure time to get set up and installed (probably a few hidden costs too). Sheldon's kit, when you examine the contents in detail, is really excellent with respect to time saved and value.

    I have another option with a secondhand kit....which sits somewhere between the two aforementioned options. Reasonable price, but modifications will be required.

    Really my most pressing concern is absolute reliability and robustness...all this talk of shaft breakage gives me the sweats!

    Slightly of topic, but why doesn't anyone run the Isuzu cable shifter? I've not seen it first hand...it would seem like a simple thing to transplant the shifter, complete, into the defender.

    Cheers,

    Jason

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    FNQ
    Posts
    1,314
    Quote Originally Posted by workingonit View Post
    Hi Fubar, watching this thread with interest. Certainly will be a long thread if you include the Europe/Africa 'road test' of your work. Jealous!

    I'm confused over what gearbox broke in an earlier post in this thread?

    When I bought my Outcast adaptor case and shaft it cost $3k. The shaft was SAE10 spline into transfer case input gear. They were going to keep manufacturing the shaft, but not the case. Most considered the case too expensive so not many buyers. Plus, if cases were to be continued, there was the hassle of getting small production runs fitted into a professional CNC manufacturers routine production schedule. You can see all this kit in my thread.

    When Sheldon came up with his adaptor shaft I opted to buy one. I will continue to use the Outcast adaptor case. The Outcast shaft will sit in my spares when I go to Tassie ()

    Sheldon now casts, himself, his adaptor casings, rather than fabricating from steel.

    The shaft Sheldon produces has moved away from LRovers conventional SE 10 spline, instead using (in my case) 32 splines into transfer case input gear. You will have to buy a modified LT230 input gear to suit, machined to remove the 10 spline and re-cut to 32 spline, also from Sheldon. You can get these reworked gears from Sheldon in the 1:1002 ratio.

    Note, going from 1:122 to 1:1002 means no longer being able to remove the 1.22 from the case for inspection. Any issues with the gear requires transfer case off. See Vern's Tasmanian campaign.

    The Sheldon shaft cost me $900. Took quite a few months for it to get made. Sent him a lead slug casting of the original drive flange that came with with my MSA. This was to ensure Sheldon had a good idea of the gearbox output shaft design - seems there is some variance in gearbox output shaft specifications. Now that he and his machinist have a better idea of manufacturing costs, ie how many shafts they get per cutter, Sheldon told me new shafts will cost a bit more.

    Assuming you are going MSA, but not divorced. If you want to save some cash, and are capable, then I would buy a Sheldon shaft/input gear and make the adaptor case. To me the shaft is a far harder proposition, to procure from someone else or manufacture yourself (unless your Ancient Mariner. Again jealous).

    As Vern pointed out, the gearstick I made is too close to the RRClassic dash, so I may have to make another. Can't promise at this stage, but I may not need the current gearstick I made for my MSA. I based it on Sheldon's design, for a Defender I think, but with some modifications to linkages. The next one I make will be different again (apart from not hitting the RRC dash) - I will provide shaft support both sides of the lever, using some of the concepts you see in the transfer case lever.

    If you decide on buying from Sheldon, get in earlier than later - from conversations he always seems to be getting busier!
    If the adaptor case is designed properly the intermediate shaft can be removed and the imput gear with any ratio gears can then be removed without the need forTC removal also handy to rering the shaft


    AM

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Darwin
    Posts
    1,239
    Hi Jason.

    Gearboxes fit for rebuild, reply 41. Wasn't sure if MSA or Rover box was being commented on. Maybe I missed something in the threads. (Edit: yep, I missed an explanation in response 34 - all clear now, MSA).

    Cable shift. Don't know why not more widely used. Reasonable assumption or not, I took a (lazy?) lead from the fact Sheldon does not seem to offer cable, maybe hard to come by 2nd hand, difficulties in making them from new, or not suited to all vehicle types, difficulty in mounting, etc. My MSA had no shifter at all. I like tinkering so copied Sheldon's design with some mods, but seems the design I copied was more suited to Defender and not RRClassic, but got some experience and ideas for the next time I build it.

    Minor note. You probably have it worked out, but if not, to keep the lt230 in original location and in train with an MSA, the adaptor housing is approx 174mm long - that's the distance from rear of MSA (with rear cover removed) to opposing face of lt230. Even less if remote mounting and keeping the rear MSA cover in place.

    Provided Sheldon has all aspects of shaft manufacture covered then the move away from SAE10 to higher spline count should be a significant improvement in shaft strength.

    Hi Ancient.

    any thread or comment on how the adaptor is designed to allow removal of shaft and input gear, without removing transfer case? I'm thinking the straight shaft Sheldon now makes (and not the adapted drive flange type) with 1:1.002 input gear which seems to jag on the centre gear making removal seem impossible.

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