Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern
How often you planning on doing that? What goes wrong with an input gear?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern
How often you planning on doing that? What goes wrong with an input gear?
With my track record, quite often😆.
I have on here from a 1.003 with chipped teeth.
But reason i ask, is if i'm in central australia and for some reason my transcase dies from stripped teeth just say and need to do a change over, what do i do?
Yes, original 10 spline is turned into 32 spline.
The reason for going for a larger 32 spline stemmed from mucking around with a 6L80. Originally I was going to make an adapter to mate the 4BD1 to a 6L80 and buy an already available adapter for the 6L80 to LT230.
I came to the conclusion that by using a 6L80 2wd output shaft (they appear to be different to the 2wd ones here) from the States, that it would be possible to go straight on to this shaft with the LT230 rather than a spud shaft like other kits.
Sourced shaft from here;
GM 6L80 06 UP Part 104678AA Transmission Output Shaft 11 250'' Long | eBay
There may be some clocking of the LT230 to make this happen. I need to fit this shaft to a 6L80 I have here to confirm. If this is the case, for a 4BD1 adapter I will clock the 6L80 the other way to get angles as close as possible.
With this in mind, the other adapters I will be making namely MSA, AOD/4R70W, 6L80 to both the LT230 and Borg Warner P38 transfer I figured I may as well use the same spline because;
AOD/4R70W - either needs a spud shaft or total new output shaft: just as cheap and simpler (one less spline/spline interface) to make a new output shaft, so might as well make that stronger too.
MSA - have strong engine, strong box etc.... weakest link in drive train is now the 10 spline. Have to cut new spud shaft anyway....
6L80 - as mentioned above.
For the P38, it's a 25 spline, to fit to the;
6L80 - simplest to cut internal splines on the Borg Warner input gear to match.
AOD/4R70W - I'll have output shafts with 32 splines sitting around for these (for the LT230) and Borg Warner input shafts sitting around (for the 6L80), so might as well use these. Could just make an AOD output shaft to suit the Borg Warner (and save splining it), just given volumes I'm likely to sell I'd prefer to keep part count down for sitting on the shelf.
The % chances of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern
1. Swap your input gear over in to the 1.003 transfer case you find lying about in Alice.
2. Call me up and get me to send a spare input I have sitting about (I will have spares for the each different ratio transfer) or a whole transfer case
3. Call up someone I've hired to do the same.
4. Find a decent machinist, pull the input gear out of your replacement transfer and have them machine the splines in.
5. Dump your Rangie in a dry creek bed and text me the coordinates, I'll be out in the Mog to salvage it.
I hear where you're coming from, also know why Henry Ford built cars any colour you wanted....
I guess I can do 10 spline if you're absolutely desperate. I strongly don't really want to. Seems to me that the poor design, smaller diameter and the quality control on 10 spline input gears increases you're chances for such a failure out in Alice Springs.
Are you talking chipped gear teeth - if people report that as a common problem behind the 4bd1 then a 32 spline is not going to save the transfer case? Something else going on from past misalignment?
My guess is you'll have an auto before venturing out again. The wife and kids will have airline tickets and tour bus boarding passes :)
In regard to Tdi 300 engines, an independent LR workshop said in their experience 10 spline stripping was primarily occurring in manual gearbox vehicles - auto's tended to protect the setup, not that they won't strip, just less frequently. Lube in all cases being important.
Will there be enough 'meat' for 32 spline once the 10 are machined out? What is the next failure point along the drive train if 32 splines provide the added strength?
Is a auto gearbox designed for high power out of a smoother petrol v8 going to cope just as well with a large 4 pot diesel torque stroke?
OD of drive flange for 32 spline on 6L80 = 48mmQuote:
Originally Posted by workingonit
min OD of LT230 gear where spline is driving 52mm (although half of the driven section is under the 80mm diameter gear)
Plenty of meat.
Next failure point? Who knows? Hopefully tyres with uprated axle/diff.
A stock standard non-electronic AOD auto ran behind a turboed 4BD1 in a 110 for 13 years.
Given that, 4L80/6L80 should be fine.
Correction from earlier posts - think I stated 36.5mm for 32 spline. It's 35.5mm Mixed it up with 36.8 for MSA
Some simple maths on comparing 10 spline to 32 spline
10 Spline ID ~26 OD~29.7 Spline depth ~1.85mm
32 Spline ID ~33.5 (need to recheck this) OD~35.5 Spline depth ~1mm
Torque a solid shaft can take;
Torsion of Shafts
Tmax = (π / 16) τmax D3
Torque is a function of Diameter cubed.
If we use ID of splines as dimension of solid shaft
10 Spline 26 cubed = 17576
32 spline 33.5 cubed = 37595
32 spline compared to 10 spline = 2.1 times stronger
Surface Area of teeth
(Assume both are equal % spline contact)
10 X 1.85 = 18.5mm
32 X 1 = 32mm
That's 72% more surface contact (Load spreading)
Oh and because there is no flange (Diameter 120mm) on the new shaft, the stock material is a closer size to the finished machined part (OD 45mm down to 35.5mm).
From memory stock material started at 140mm and machined down to ~30mm. Where the inner core is less effected by the heat treatment.
New shaft won't have this issue.
Regarding heat treatment and the inner core. Slightly of topic at this stage, but likely to be raised in the future. There was some discussion earlier about 'heat treatment' of the adaptor shafts previously supplied.
Back then I did some reading, not claiming to be an expert etc. Seems, if I understand correctly, round bar for axle applications and the like can be supplied already 'through treated' ie has the twist and return and shock absorbent characteristics required of an axle, from the surface to the core, but is not wear resistant. You can machine through the bar and its characteristics at the core will be the same as at the original diameter. No further 'through treatment' is required. It is only once teeth/splines are cut is there a requirement for further treatment. The further treatment consists of surface or case hardening of the teeth/splines to make them wear resistant.
You end up with wear resistant teeth with a brittle tendency, backed up by a more malleable shock absorbent core.
Metallurgy and heat treatment is a whole science in itself (and I am not an expert either).Quote:
Originally Posted by workingonit
In general there are 2 types - induction and through hardened. Induction hardened will have a "soft" inner core as you describe. In many cases the choice of one or the other will be decided by material type.
However, the "soft inner core" of a shaft is irrelevant as it sees no stress. You can buy "gun drilled" axles that are just as strong as solid but have slightly less mass.
The axle blanks you talk about - 1541H and similar materials, are supplied hardened (the H) and IME are not rehardened after spline cutting. They just rely on the hardening depth being sufficient.
The issue in things like axle shafts is they can be shock loaded, so need to be resilient and not too brittle. This is not related to leaving a "soft core" but not hardening all the way. e.g. Maxi-Drive / HTE axle shafts are through hardened, but only to about 80% of the hardness possible for the material.
EDIT: This is all a bit OT, I will leave Sheldon to clarify the specifics. I think he might be talking about machining a hardened blank - but to a much greater extent than just cutting splines.