Thread: BROCK OR WHINCUP?

Originally Posted by Pickles2

Very true mate, very true.
I knew Brock very well, & among the current drivers, Whincup is my favourite.
Over a period of time, Jamie may well eclipse Brock, but IMHO, at this stage, he still has a way to go.
Pickles.

very well said mate. the only time i ever got to meet the great man was in the early 80s at lake side when i was a young fella it is something i have never forgotten even after signing hundreds of autographs he made feel like i was the most important kid there that day. he had time for everybody and that is something i think has rubbed off on lowndes and is one thing whincup needs to do better. brock also had a connection with whatever he was driving whether it be a austin7, shopping trolley, VC commodore it did'nt matter if it wheels and a engine he could get the best out of it. he won races with some ****boxes because he had that mechanical sympathy

[quote=discovery39;2116335]

Originally Posted by Tank

Ambrose and Moffat, only reason Brock won so many Bathust races was because Holden cheated and ran a small car (4 cyl. Vauxhall, stuffed with a I.L. Six and later a V8) against a full size Ford Sedan, and then they cried all the way up CAMS bum when Dick Johnson smacked Holdens behind in a Pommy 4 cyl. shopping cart, Holden sucks and always will, Regards Frank.[/quot

! Seriously. This is what u believe. For ****s sake, u clearly haven't got a clue

Well lets see you prove it wrong, why didn't GM run the HQ Holden against the the equivalent Ford Falcon, why did GM run first a Vauxhall (torana) and then a 4cyl. German Opel (commodore) with engines not originally designed for them.
Could it be that they were sick of getting their arse kicked by Ford Falcons, could it be that they figured a car half the size of the Falcon and the HQ with a large engine, same size tyres would have a better chance of winning.
As far as not having a clue, that's reserved for GM fans that think Holdens are an Australian car and Bleat like the sheep that they are when Ford follows GM's lead and brought in the pommy Sierras.
The proof of the pudding is in the next sheep off the block, he states that holden ran an underpowered car, what a joker, 300+ horsepower in a 1 tonne car against a 380 hp 1.8 tonne car, both on the same size tyres, and brakes, no contest.
How many GM monaros could you buy in Australia with a 4-bolt main block, I worked for a team that raced a Monaro, unfortunately this team was a privateer and only got the inferior Chevrolet engine with 2 bolt mains, the engine didn't make it BTW.
If the Sierras weren't homolagated why where they allowed to race, FORDS are the innovators the rest are sheep trying to catch up, Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by disco man

Bugger had no idea about the weight issue with the falcons dick has always been a hero of mine got me thinking twice about how i feel about him now maybe he wasnt as good as i thought

Hey I still have respect for DJ and is one of the greats. He did not cheat, but was the only one to read the rules and discover the weight discrepancy. I have just finished reading his autobiography. It was a good read and can recommend it. He was and is still complimentary of Brock. My main point was be careful who you accuse of cheating with the other poster saying the XU1s cheated. Far from it the XU1 did not cheat and starting to drag up that the XU1 was based on a Vauxhall, so what. The Falcons were based on American Falcons.
Dick Johnson was still a great driver, is a great man and though I am Holden he is one of my favourites and one person I respect. I even made sure my son named Brock had a photo taken with him last year in Perth. He is a genuine legend and when you read about his struggles and lack of team backing it does put things into perspective. Plus the way he was screwed over several times. Gets my respect not just as a driver but as a human being.
There are only a few of the current drivers that could hold their own in older cars or cars with problems and Whincup is not one. Lowndes is one, Ingall maybe another. Look at the stas over the last year or so, every time Lowndes gets in the groove the Red Bull team seem to cause a technical error that allows Whincup to make up ground. Tell me that is coincidence in so many occasions. We all know Lowndes has never had the same car in this team, this year when he seems to maybe have a similar car he has proven he is much faster than Whincup (Vettel).

Originally Posted by CraigE

You are kidding, holden ran an underpowered car that handled and you call that unfair against a GTHO? You are just delerious. How do you work oit Holden cheated? The races were open to any car sold in Australia that sold over a certain amount.
What about the fact the Dick Johnson only won races when he ran a Falcon 500 odd kilos lighter than anyone else as some moron lodged the weight of a Falocm ute instead of the sedan. If this did not occur he would not have won too many races and would have gotten nowhere near Brock in any race.Not to mention at the time of the Sierras you were supposed to be able to buy one. Ever tried buying a POS Sierra let alone a Cosworth in Australia.

Here's another load of crap, tell me and all the others here how much does a Ford Falcon sedan (of the type Johnson drove) weigh and how much does a Falcon Ute weigh and tell me how, (what in your mind is a fact) did Johnson get away with it, please no more bull****, Regards Frank.

[quote=Tank;2116579]

Originally Posted by discovery39

Well lets see you prove it wrong, why didn't GM run the HQ Holden against the the equivalent Ford Falcon, why did GM run first a Vauxhall (torana) and then a 4cyl. German Opel (commodore) with engines not originally designed for them.
Could it be that they were sick of getting their arse kicked by Ford Falcons, could it be that they figured a car half the size of the Falcon and the HQ with a large engine, same size tyres would have a better chance of winning.
As far as not having a clue, that's reserved for GM fans that think Holdens are an Australian car and Bleat like the sheep that they are when Ford follows GM's lead and brought in the pommy Sierras.
The proof of the pudding is in the next sheep off the block, he states that holden ran an underpowered car, what a joker, 300+ horsepower in a 1 tonne car against a 380 hp 1.8 tonne car, both on the same size tyres, and brakes, no contest.
How many GM monaros could you buy in Australia with a 4-bolt main block, I worked for a team that raced a Monaro, unfortunately this team was a privateer and only got the inferior Chevrolet engine with 2 bolt mains, the engine didn't make it BTW.
If the Sierras weren't homolagated why where they allowed to race, FORDS are the innovators the rest are sheep trying to catch up, Regards Frank.

The reason Ford were allowed to race the Sierras was that the organisers at the time were pushing towards the failed international rule category, so maybe you want to get your facts straight. The Sierras and later the Nissans were allowed to race under these conditions and di not have to meet the same criteria as the Commodores. The Sierras that generally won had to also cheat with doccumented illegal fuel, panels and engine management. These cars were never on par with the Commodores costing many times more than the existing Touring Car Commodores. With the extra technology they should have won and won easy but they didnt.
The XY GTHO was actually more like around 500 hp, do a bit of research. So what about the XU1 the same car could be bought on road, the category was open to all cars. Holden went down the handling path and Ford went down the horsepower, evened itself out a bit in the category.
Ford innovators, are you on drugs? Nothing came out of Australia it was all US designed, just adapted to Australia. At least the XU1 used an Australian designed and built engine, drive train, suspension etc. The Falcon used all US designed car and parts. Most teams even sourced their Ford parts from the US. Do a bit of history on these cars.
The HQ was never designed as a race car and was never going to be a competitive race car, period. The GTHO was specifically designed to go fast and race. We can ask the same question of Ford, why they went Sierras and later Mustangs? This was due to the international rules. The XD/XE were far superior cars putting out around 560hp, but the rule changes occurred meaning change. At least Holden stayed with an Australian built car.
See you have not mentioned the A9X??? You may need to go back and actually look at history and check the ratio of wins Holden to Ford and the Falcon loses out big time.
Seems to be a matter of sour grapes tat a small 6 cylinder beat a GTHO on the track.
Also do some research on the Commodore, yes it had Opel origins, but was redesigned from the ground up to meet Australian conditions, with only some of the body panels and interior parts being the same, there are a couple of good books on this that will show you the differences.
Read some history full stop.
This of course does not mean that I do not like GTHOs either I like them all but am basically a Holden person.
The big thing that will come up over and over again is the so called Super Roo was actually Super Rooted by a liitle Lion Cub.

[quote=CraigE;2116595]

Originally Posted by Tank

The reason Ford were allowed to race the Sierras was that the organisers at the time were pushing towards the failed international rule category, so maybe you want to get your facts straight. The Sierras and later the Nissans were allowed to race under these conditions and di not have to meet the same criteria as the Commodores. The Sierras that generally won had to also cheat with doccumented illegal fuel, panels and engine management. These cars were never on par with the Commodores costing many times more than the existing Touring Car Commodores. With the extra technology they should have won and won easy but they didnt.
The XY GTHO was actually more like around 500 hp, do a bit of research. So what about the XU1 the same car could be bought on road, the category was open to all cars. Holden went down the handling path and Ford went down the horsepower, evened itself out a bit in the category.
Ford innovators, are you on drugs? Nothing came out of Australia it was all US designed, just adapted to Australia. At least the XU1 used an Australian designed and built engine, drive train, suspension etc. The Falcon used all US designed car and parts. Most teams even sourced their Ford parts from the US. Do a bit of history on these cars.
The HQ was never designed as a race car and was never going to be a competitive race car, period. The GTHO was specifically designed to go fast and race. We can ask the same question of Ford, why they went Sierras and later Mustangs? This was due to the international rules. The XD/XE were far superior cars putting out around 560hp, but the rule changes occurred meaning change. At least Holden stayed with an Australian built car.
See you have not mentioned the A9X??? You may need to go back and actually look at history and check the ratio of wins Holden to Ford and the Falcon loses out big time.
Seems to be a matter of sour grapes tat a small 6 cylinder beat a GTHO on the track.
Also do some research on the Commodore, yes it had Opel origins, but was redesigned from the ground up to meet Australian conditions, with only some of the body panels and interior parts being the same, there are a couple of good books on this that will show you the differences.
Read some history full stop.
This of course does not mean that I do not like GTHOs either I like them all but am basically a Holden person.
The big thing that will come up over and over again is the so called Super Roo was actually Super Rooted by a liitle Lion Cub.

You've quoted wrong. I didn't write all that. Would take too long

Originally Posted by Tank

Here's another load of crap, tell me and all the others here how much does a Ford Falcon sedan (of the type Johnson drove) weigh and how much does a Falcon Ute weigh and tell me how, (what in your mind is a fact) did Johnson get away with it, please no more bull****, Regards Frank.

Frank,
This shows you know nothing. Rounded the average weight of the Commodores and Falcons in Sedan was around 1500kgs. I would have to re-read to determine the weight advantage but it was somwhere around 300-500kgs
The figure put into CAMS for the Falcon XD was the ute weight, now i would have to look up the exact weight but was around 300 plus kgs lighter than the Commodore and other XD Falcons. DJ has admitted to this, though it was not him that put the weights to CAMS, but he read the manual cover to cover and discovered the weight discrepancy and used it (with in the current rules). No one else did until the car was weighed at one race with no fuel and the secret was discovered. The car was meant to be weighed at full fuel to hide the weight differences some what. Once discovered the other Falcons stripped weight away and the Commodores were given a concession. From that point forward the XD could not compete and DJs advantage was over.
Read his autobiography. DJ a Ford man that became a Ford man not by choice but by circumstance. He wanted to be a factory Holden driver.
You Ford fruit loops will just never get over being beaten by a superior designed car that did not rely on horsepower alone.

Originally Posted by CraigE

Hey I still have respect for DJ and is one of the greats. He did not cheat, but was the only one to read the rules and discover the weight discrepancy. I have just finished reading his autobiography. It was a good read and can recommend it. He was and is still complimentary of Brock. My main point was be careful who you accuse of cheating with the other poster saying the XU1s cheated. Far from it the XU1 did not cheat and starting to drag up that the XU1 was based on a Vauxhall, so what. The Falcons were based on American Falcons.
Dick Johnson was still a great driver, is a great man and though I am Holden he is one of my favourites and one person I respect. I even made sure my son named Brock had a photo taken with him last year in Perth. He is a genuine legend and when you read about his struggles and lack of team backing it does put things into perspective. Plus the way he was screwed over several times. Gets my respect not just as a driver but as a human being.
There are only a few of the current drivers that could hold their own in older cars or cars with problems and Whincup is not one. Lowndes is one, Ingall maybe another. Look at the stas over the last year or so, every time Lowndes gets in the groove the Red Bull team seem to cause a technical error that allows Whincup to make up ground. Tell me that is coincidence in so many occasions. We all know Lowndes has never had the same car in this team, this year when he seems to maybe have a similar car he has proven he is much faster than Whincup (Vettel).

awesome thanks bud faith restored yeah he did cop some kicks in the nuts but in the Queenslander spirit he kept going. brave man putting the family house on the line to go racing i have done the tour of his current workshop a couple of times and compared to the places tru-blue and greens tuf were built DJR has come a long way. the day he had to sell his old race cars to the bowdens must have broken his heart the poor bastard. and i think he made the most powerful sierra's in the world ahead of all the very large euro race teams not bad for a small team working out of a very small workshop