Bathurst....V8 Supercars...Russel is driving!!

I'm going to stick my neck on the chopping block and say up front IMHO Brocky was over rated,yes he could drive but so could many others like Jim Richards,Dick Johnson and Larry Perkins could not only drive but put their engineering ability to the test,DJ took a world beating car and beat the world with it,LP made a Taxi go faster than it ever had the right to,same as I put Sir Jack ahead of all the current ''I'm Lewis Hamilton but you can call me gansta'' F1 drivers because he built his car and won in it. Pat

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Originally Posted by bacicat

As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this is the first time I've watched Bathurst in many many years, but one thing hasn't changed - the Ford fans making excuses about coming second.... :D:angel::wasntme:

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Like last year? ;)

This is what I think . Whincup was acting under team orders & was to ho;d up the other cars to give Lowndes the 13 sec lead so there were not enough laps left to catch & pass Lowndes. Whincup had to win every race until season end with Frosty having some DNF's to win the championship . with Lowndes win he is second in the points & will have every chance of winning with Whincup"s help, & Winterbottom has no one to protect him because the Bottle O car is 3rd in the points & he wants to win also.
That's my 2 bob's worth& yes I don't like the Red Bull team & would rather see anybody else win weather they drive Ford ,Holden Volve or Merc, o yes I forgot about Nissan.

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Originally Posted by 1950landy

This is what I think . Whincup was acting under team orders & was to ho;d up the other cars to give Lowndes the 13 sec lead so there were not enough laps left to catch & pass Lowndes. Whincup had to win every race until season end with Frosty having some DNF's to win the championship . with Lowndes win he is second in the points & will have every chance of winning with Whincup"s help, & Winterbottom has no one to protect him because the Bottle O car is 3rd in the points & he wants to win also.
That's my 2 bob's worth& yes I don't like the Red Bull team & would rather see anybody else win weather they drive Ford ,Holden Volve or Merc, o yes I forgot about Nissan.

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It wasn't 13 seconds & Lowndes has NO CHANCE of winning the Championship, unless Frosty fails to finish in any of the ramaining rounds, which I do not think is even a remote possibility.
AFAIAC, the Championshipis Frosty's & well deserved too.
Pickles.

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Originally Posted by Tank

Rightly so, when holden has to cheat to win, Regards Frank.

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Geez, get over it - I was having a joke.

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

Like last year? ;)

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Hee, hee - Couldn't tell you - this is the first time I've watched Bathurst in about 8 years, but I'm guessing Ford made the grade last Year? :)

Oh, and you all think I'm a Holden man right? Well, actually I'm not, so that blows your little theory. ;). I actually like most of the V8 drivers no matter who they drive for - Frosty is one of my favourites actually, but I'm not blubbering away saying the win was stolen from him.

Go the Volvo's!!! :D

So, Tank lighten up - it's only a car race, no need to blow a gasket. :). (See what I did there...)

Pat, I totally agree about Brock (and the others), a great driver, but a bit of a whacko.
My gripe really is with GM Holden and their tactics, I was involved with a team at Bathurst, who fielded a 5.7L Monaro (against Fords 5L) and as a privateer wasn't in the pocket of GM. This Monaro never had 4 bolt mains, manganese steel suspension components, extra bracing for body and frame and a host of goodies the favoured GM teams and privateers got gratis.
The Monaro body was crap, the passenger side footwell split every time the car went through Skyline, the passenger side top of the windscreen ended up with a gap up to 2" and a lot of Gaffa tape to keep it in.
As this team never had access to a dyno it couldn't run in the engine properly and blew the engine about a 1/3 of the race.
Holden never raced the full size Holden again against the Ford Falcon, instead they imported the English Vauxhall and called it a Torana (and later the German Opel), it was a light 4 cylinder car, which GM stuffed a hotted up six with multiple carbs.
If you remember the quickest six full size Holden was the twin carbed 186 that was released as the X2, it was the first Holden factory car that could achieve 100mph from the factory.
So Holden wouldn't race their full size passenger car, the HQ's with radial tuned suspension.
So they homlogated the Toranas, which were much smaller than the Falcons and 1/2 a ton lighter, which were allowed to run larger brakes and the same size race tyres as the heavier Falcon, Ford didn't stand a chance, GM stuffed this type of racing, I can remember drivers at Bathurst who drove their race cars to the track.
Then they went further and stuck a V8 in them.
When Ford retaliated with the Ford Sierra (also a British designed car) GM Holden kicked up a stink and said you can't do that (even though GM did it).
Sierras wiped GM's arse and they didn't like being beat at their own game.
How many race wins at Bathurst do you think Brocky would have had if he had to compete on an even footing and had to drive Holden's Flagship full size Passenger/Taxi the HQ.
This rivalry and downright will to win at any cost by GM ruined the best race car series and Bathurst race forever.
So Brocky RIP, I don't know whether you were for what GM did, but you did have to earn a quid, eh!, Regards Frank.

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Originally Posted by PAT303

I'm going to stick my neck on the chopping block and say up front IMHO Brocky was over rated,yes he could drive but so could many others like Jim Richards,Dick Johnson and Larry Perkins could not only drive but put their engineering ability to the test,DJ took a world beating car and beat the world with it,LP made a Taxi go faster than it ever had the right to,same as I put Sir Jack ahead of all the current ''I'm Lewis Hamilton but you can call me gansta'' F1 drivers because he built his car and won in it. Pat

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Pretty biased post Tank.
The FACTS on the XU1 are as follows. Ford came out with the Phase 1 Falcon, which was based on an American design,...check your facts,..there is an Amercan Falcon virtually identical to the XR (XW predecessor),...there are even a few of them in Aus,...and the Falcon has a TOTALLY American engine & drive train. So all this talk about who used what, why it was used etc etc etc is all pointless,...they were all trying to win, and they were all doing the same thing in one way or another.
And yes, the Falcon KILLED the Monaro,..NO ARGUMENT from me. So, what are Holden to do? John Bagshaw was the Holden GM at the time, and loved his motor sport. His word, "What are we going to do"?,...because in those days "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" were true to a much larger extent than they are today. Bagshaw did not have the Budget to develop the 350 Monaro, it would've cost far too much to do what needed to be done, and He simply did not have the budget.
So, Bagshaw & Co decided to place a 186 engine in an LC Torana, later upgraded with the LJ to a 202,..which,..with Brock driving, was a winner.
Every manifacturer in those days,& to some extent today, does what it can to win.
"Ford didn't stand a chance"??!!....I seem to remember one Allan Moffatt having a few wins, and after that, still using a U.S drivetrain in the XC Falcon, AND employing an American Carroll Smith to engineer the whole thing.
I ain't saying Holden did this or Ford did that, or Chrysler, or whatever,.....mate, they ALL did it. (Remember the Mopar 340V8 & all the associated "hot up bits" that Chrysler were going to use before Evan Green's "Phase 1V scare" stopped it all?
And, there ain't no bias here, When Moff was racing, I was his most ardent supporter, so no bias from me.
Brock, as a driver? Talk to Moffatt, he's got a different opinion than you,..and so do most of the other drivers who raced against him.
Brock in the "best equipment"?....yep, most of the time He was. Frosty & Chaz?.....are they not in the best equipment?,...and Moff had the best Ford when He was winning too. It's always the way.
Pickles.

Facts, GM imported the English Vauxhall and the Opel from Germany, both small light 4 cyl. cars and named them Torana's to replace the garbage HR/HQ holdens because they were crap and they would never be strong enough to race, Fact.
Ford Cleveland engines were totally built here in Australia, in USA the Cleveland was only manufactured for 3 years, the Australian Cleveland was manufactured through to 1985 and the 302 Cleveland was an Australian only production.
When did holden start using Ford 9" diffs.
You seem to think it is fair that Holden imported small 4 cyl. cars from Europe to compete against full size Australian sedans, you say you are not biased but you cannot accept that the only way holden could beat Ford's Falcon was to cheat by using a small, lighter car that was allowed to use the same size brakes and tyres as the 1/2 tonne heavier Falcon.
Please explain why holden never used their full size sedans to compete with Ford's Falcon, if the Monaro was such a great race car why didn't they continue with it.
Every holden in that era was designed in either USA or Europe, so the Falcon being an American designed car is not relevant, from the XA Falcon every Ford Falcon was a total Australian design, the XA Coupe was designed in Australia by Australians 5 years before release, the only part borrowed from Ford USA was the bulging rear panels over the wheels (Torino).
Will you admit that the Torana's were Vauxhall's and opels , if you won't then you are burying your head in the sand.
I didn't say Brock was a **** driver, I agreed with Pat303 that he was overated, how do you think Brock and GM would have fared if they competed fairly and raced car for car, i.e. full sized holdens, how did Brock and GM fare when Ford played GM's game of importing the Ford Sierra.
You are comparing apples to oranges, If Brock had to race a full size holden sedan, HQ or whatever they were designated against a full size Falcon, you would be now saying "Peter who", Regards Frank.


P.S. BTW holden did develop the Monaro HK 1968 to 1977 and again in 2001 to 2005.

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Pretty biased post Tank.
The FACTS on the XU1 are as follows. Ford came out with the Phase 1 Falcon, which was based on an American design,...check your facts,..there is an Amercan Falcon virtually identical to the XR (XW predecessor),...there are even a few of them in Aus,...and the Falcon has a TOTALLY American engine & drive train. So all this talk about who used what, why it was used etc etc etc is all pointless,...they were all trying to win, and they were all doing the same thing in one way or another.
And yes, the Falcon KILLED the Monaro,..NO ARGUMENT from me. So, what are Holden to do? John Bagshaw was the Holden GM at the time, and loved his motor sport. His word, "What are we going to do"?,...because in those days "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" were true to a much larger extent than they are today. Bagshaw did not have the Budget to develop the 350 Monaro, it would've cost far too much to do what needed to be done, and He simply did not have the budget.
So, Bagshaw & Co decided to place a 186 engine in an LC Torana, later upgraded with the LJ to a 202,..which,..with Brock driving, was a winner.
Every manifacturer in those days,& to some extent today, does what it can to win.
"Ford didn't stand a chance"??!!....I seem to remember one Allan Moffatt having a few wins, and after that, still using a U.S drivetrain in the XC Falcon, AND employing an American Carroll Smith to engineer the whole thing.
I ain't saying Holden did this or Ford did that, or Chrysler, or whatever,.....mate, they ALL did it. (Remember the Mopar 340V8 & all the associated "hot up bits" that Chrysler were going to use before Evan Green's "Phase 1V scare" stopped it all?
And, there ain't no bias here, When Moff was racing, I was his most ardent supporter, so no bias from me.
Brock, as a driver? Talk to Moffatt, he's got a different opinion than you,..and so do most of the other drivers who raced against him.
Brock in the "best equipment"?....yep, most of the time He was. Frosty & Chaz?.....are they not in the best equipment?,...and Moff had the best Ford when He was winning too. It's always the way.
Pickles.

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Frank, YOU are the one who cannot compare apples with apples.
I'm saying, ALL the manufacturers did what they did to win, ALL of them.
As an example, you yourself mentioned the Sierra, FULLY imported by Ford, THE WHOLE CAR. You talk about Holden not using a "Full sized Car"??...Well mate, back to you,....why didn't Ford?
You mention the HR Holden,....I don't remember too many XP/XR Falcons being raced at the time, but I do remember a lot of Mustangs.
Who said, in your words, "The Monaro was a great "race car"??...Never heard that at the time from any GM people I know?..Never.
Yes mate, I know all about the Cleveland engine, and it is an American design,...I know it was also further developed in Aus, but it's a US engine as was the gearbox & Diff.
All that stuff about full sized Vs small etc is TOTALLY irrelevant to what we're talking about. Mate, you are the one that mentioned the Sierra,not me, & it's EXACTLY what you're having a go at Holden for!?......I seem to remember there was a car called a Falcon around at the time, or am I dreaming?....but Ford chose not to use it,...so they FULLY IMPORTED Sierras,....Ford didn't even develop it, or design it, to anywhere near the same degree as Holden did with their locally modified Torana, or for that matter, what Chrysler did with their Charger.
You appear to be a "Ford Man"?..No problem,..all good, plenty of people are, I have been too, still am. Holden/Ford no difference,....well some I guess, but basically, looking at things, I'd say I follow the driver, as I did when Craig went to Ford.
Me?..Well I'm a bit different,..if you're interested in reading. My first car was a 1948 Ford Super DeLux Side Valve V8, followed by a 1948 Ford Mercury V8, followed by a 1951 Ford Twin Spinner V8 (gen 60,000mls!). I loved my V8s, ...all my mates drove their FJs etc but I loved my V8s, so initially I guess I was a "Ford Man", as they were always associated with V8s. Later on, got married (twice!) couldn't afford a V8 then, so had a few other cars, but I supported Ford, particularly "Marvin". Later on I nearly bought a XE 5.8ESP, but preferred the A9X, which I owned for a few years. Then had a succession of Brock cars,...at that stage you may remember Ford discontinued the V8, so I couldn't own one. So, became a Brock supporter, got involved with HDT etc,...tremendous times. Still followed Brock when He went to Ford & drove a Sierra. Also owned a Ford RS Focus, so unlike yourself, I don't really have any "Brand Loyalty",...I'd rather follow the driver, as I did when Brock went to Ford, & as Craig did. I was thrilled when Moff went to drive for HDT,...what a pairing,...your comment with respect to Peter is relevant here?!
So Frank, it's all good, I don't believe We'll ever agree, but I do believe we're passionate racing fans.
Pickles.

Not so different at all,
Quote:"Me?..Well I'm a bit different,..if you're interested in reading. My first car was a 1948 Ford Super DeLux Side Valve V8, followed by a 1948 Ford Mercury V8, followed by a 1951 Ford Twin Spinner V8 (gen 60,000mls!)." end quote.


My first car was a 48 Mercury (2X), then a 51 twin spinner, 49 Single Spinner, then a succession of Customlines 55 on, had a couple of holdens, both let me down badly.
You talk about Ford being all American, well holden Monaro ran a 350 chev. a Muncie gearbox, and a chev. 10 bolt diff, later changing over to the superior Ford 9".
Still my point is that Brock would not have won so many Bathursts if holden hadn't squibbed out by using a Vauxhall and opel small car against the full size Falcon, WHY?, because the full size holden couldn't cut it, Regards Frank.

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Frank, YOU are the one who cannot compare apples with apples.
I'm saying, ALL the manufacturers did what they did to win, ALL of them.
As an example, you yourself mentioned the Sierra, FULLY imported by Ford, THE WHOLE CAR. You talk about Holden not using a "Full sized Car"??...Well mate, back to you,....why didn't Ford?
You mention the HR Holden,....I don't remember too many XP/XR Falcons being raced at the time, but I do remember a lot of Mustangs.
Who said, in your words, "The Monaro was a great "race car"??...Never heard that at the time from any GM people I know?..Never.
Yes mate, I know all about the Cleveland engine, and it is an American design,...I know it was also further developed in Aus, but it's a US engine as was the gearbox & Diff.
All that stuff about full sized Vs small etc is TOTALLY irrelevant to what we're talking about. Mate, you are the one that mentioned the Sierra,not me, & it's EXACTLY what you're having a go at Holden for!?......I seem to remember there was a car called a Falcon around at the time, or am I dreaming?....but Ford chose not to use it,...so they FULLY IMPORTED Sierras,....Ford didn't even develop it, or design it, to anywhere near the same degree as Holden did with their locally modified Torana, or for that matter, what Chrysler did with their Charger.
You appear to be a "Ford Man"?..No problem,..all good, plenty of people are, I have been too, still am. Holden/Ford no difference,....well some I guess, but basically, looking at things, I'd say I follow the driver, as I did when Craig went to Ford.
Me?..Well I'm a bit different,..if you're interested in reading. My first car was a 1948 Ford Super DeLux Side Valve V8, followed by a 1948 Ford Mercury V8, followed by a 1951 Ford Twin Spinner V8 (gen 60,000mls!). I loved my V8s, ...all my mates drove their FJs etc but I loved my V8s, so initially I guess I was a "Ford Man", as they were always associated with V8s. Later on, got married (twice!) couldn't afford a V8 then, so had a few other cars, but I supported Ford, particularly "Marvin". Later on I nearly bought a XE 5.8ESP, but preferred the A9X, which I owned for a few years. Then had a succession of Brock cars,...at that stage you may remember Ford discontinued the V8, so I couldn't own one. So, became a Brock supporter, got involved with HDT etc,...tremendous times. Still followed Brock when He went to Ford & drove a Sierra. Also owned a Ford RS Focus, so unlike yourself, I don't really have any "Brand Loyalty",...I'd rather follow the driver, as I did when Brock went to Ford, & as Craig did. I was thrilled when Moff went to drive for HDT,...what a pairing,...your comment with respect to Peter is relevant here?!
So Frank, it's all good, I don't believe We'll ever agree, but I do believe we're passionate racing fans.
Pickles.

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