Large Caravan TARE weights

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Originally Posted by Rick Fischer

Most caravan and trailer builders wouldn't know how to do a structural "stress" analysis on their structures, never mind a "fatigue" analysis, as for a "finite element" design, Well??? .......................and as far as I know there is no regulatory requirement to provide such design analysis to the regulatory authorities.

Cheers

RF

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The reason for authorities not requesting technical proofs are: they don’t have anyone or enough of the people required to understand the outcomes/content of technical reports, authorities don’t want to have the responsibility for accepting technical information. Short of extended testing I can’t see how else anyone could claim to build something suitable for purpose other than by technical analysis or by sticking to standard documented best practice by recognised/accepted authorities.

Back to the OP topic, I think towball weight is what will get most people. I have a towbar stamped as good for 4 tonne atm yet only 150 kg Towball down mass. I think those values are more suited to a dog than pig trailer. Ok for farm trailers but their are few dog configuration caravans. As soon as we get over the 1500-2000 kg atm we should be seriously considering the adequacy of our tow vehicles and certainly pay close attention to changing our driving style.

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Originally Posted by pop058

Most people ( me included) are not up to speed on ADRs, yet many claim alsorts of wonderful rules. 10% ball weight, rated shackles, brake and load requirements, etc. To be clear, I do not have any issues with any of the rules, I just want to see them in print and not myth and hearsay.

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Some research online and you will probably find most of what you mentioned in government websites.

10% is the only one that you probably won’t find a reference to.

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Originally Posted by Wilyms

Thats called quoting out of context Pop!!

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Pop states it the operator responsibility

Pop also states he doesn’t know what a myth and what fact and asks for references

I assume pop doesn’t tow....given pops statement it the operators responsibility.

Not sure why pop is involved in the thread....sounding like a cracked record.

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Originally Posted by vbrab

Have been in katherine NT for past 4 months and probably get to see the biggest fleet of road travellers anywhere passing through, many with large caravans.
It seems all state police intend to start targeting caravanners for their tow ball weights and total caravan weight being towed.
(Some rigs did look a bit scary with the front wheel almost off the ground, or the back of the vehicle almost touching the road.)

Just wondering what the average tandem (dual axle) caravans of 5.5 to 6 meters would be at TARE weight?
Have noticed that most seem to be about 1900- 2300kgs (TARE).
Is that about the average TARE weight of a large caravan?
Australian design rules allow for minimum 10% at towball, and evidently prefer <15% for "safety", which might start to put a loaded caravan of that size beyond the allowed towing capacity of many vehicles (possibly except Land Rovers). Which is likely why the pilce have announce a plan to target caravan travellers.

My interest is that having built a 6 meter enclosed trailer totally of aluminium with a TARE of 1175kgs (wasn't intended as a caravan because it runs tri-axle, which adds 200kgs), I'm wondering if switching to all aluminium construction for caravans (chassis N' all), might start to look like a viable option, especially as vehicles become lighter (as in the new Disco), and as the police start to crack down on overall/towball weight.

Any thoughts on that?

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My thoughts

I couldn’t direct you online documents, when I build my last camper all I did was research what QLD required to have it registered, that was a simple process. Apparently you need brakes on a trailer weigh over 750kg

I actually registered the trailer before it was completed....than discovered it at out on weight during construction

I didn’t really consider tow ball weight during the build. From memory I was under 10%

I fitted a custom axle with electric over hydraulic brakes on a trailer that was registered with an ATM < 750kg

I have no idea what the average rate of caravans in a set range is, there is enough comments inline suggesting the manufacturers displayed weights are generally incorrect which is why I would weigh it myself during he fitout and as I roll out of town fully loaded.

I built it all out of steel, much easier than aluminum for me.

There are manufacturers running ally chassis and more will follow....

The comments about caravans being heavier than the tow vehicles isn’t ideal.....it what it is, up to the individual how close to the limit he wants to go

Every trip I headed south I would run my combination over the weigh bridge at work.....depending on which tug, one I would exceed rear axle limit and the other exceed front axle limit.......oh and always exceed the trailer ATM. Don’t reckon too many punters would check weights that often, whilst I knew my weights I didn’t adjust anything, hell I was already holding up the holiday as it takes time to weigh all three axles and tow Val.

When I sold the trailer I deregistered it as a 750 and re-registered it with an ATM 1400kg.

I to suspect a good number of combinations exceedGVM, ATM, GCM and individual axle weights.

Sure there seems to be more roadside checks which I think is a good thing, helps educated the uneducated. I also think think any state has commuted funds and resources to do a blanket roll out. If they actually fined owners and pulled them off the road immediately the few blitzes they do would make an impact pretty quick across the state.

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Originally Posted by Homestar

Yes, VicPol and Vicroads have both said they will be conducting more of these proactive days over the coming years to help educate Vanners about weights and safe towing. They also said they weren't looking to book people for minor infringements and time soon which I think is a good approach.

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Earlier this year when we were looking for a motorhome to purchase and obviously test driving several locally, I spoke to a Vicroads Officer regarding vehicle weights, towing weights, etc. My reason for this was that I had driven several smaller sized vehicles which had been "reclassified" to a GVM of 4490kg and run them over our local Vicroads weighbridge and found that they exceeded their GVM. I was curious to know the reason for the need to reclassify these vehicle to a lower GVM, which mainly seems so be that they can be driven on a car licence, negating the need for "Heavy Licence" upgrade. The Vicroads Officer I spoke with told me that the fines for being overweight in a vehicle under 4490kg are extremely exy as opposed to the fines for being overweight in a Heavy Vehicle.


Regarding Shackles: This is from Vicroads site.

Do I need a load-rated shackle to connect my safety chain/cable?

Whilst using a load-rated shackle isn’t mandatory, it’s a good idea to choose a shackle to suit your trailer and towing vehicle.
Suitable shackles include:

• shackles supplied as original equipment by the original vehicle manufacturer (e.g. Ford, Holden, Toyota etc.)
• shackles supplied by an original equipment tow bar manufacturer
• shackles that are rated and compliant with Australian Standard AS 2741 “Shackles” or other equivalent recognised standards AND the break load limit of the shackle is rated at least 1.5 times greater than the Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) of the trailer (see below for example).

Regarding Weight: Also from Vicroads site.

Once you have loaded your caravan, its weight should not exceed:

• the maximum weight recommended by the caravan manufacturer
• the towing limits recommended by the car's manufacturer, or
• the weight rating of the towbar.

Some laws can be different from State to State. If you are travelling interstate with your caravan, check individual State or Territory regulations before you leave.

I quite agree with your comments about possibility of the actual weight of many trailers being way above what they are listed as, as well as towball weights being over what is recommended for the towing vehicle or what manufacturers say they are. (Or it may be that many towing need to get new rear suspensions from the way they appear to be dragging down at rear.)
main concern for me is that these people are cruising the highways and could easily become unmanageable under advrese conditions, impacting on other road users.
So bring on the roadside checks, and only those who are outside the regulations need worry.

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Originally Posted by weeds

My thoughts

I couldn’t direct you online documents, when I build my last camper all I did was research what QLD required to have it registered, that was a simple process. Apparently you need brakes on a trailer weigh over 750kg

I actually registered the trailer before it was completed....than discovered it at out on weight during construction

I didn’t really consider tow ball weight during the build. From memory I was under 10%

I fitted a custom axle with electric over hydraulic brakes on a trailer that was registered with an ATM < 750kg

I have no idea what the average rate of caravans in a set range is, there is enough comments inline suggesting the manufacturers displayed weights are generally incorrect which is why I would weigh it myself during he fitout and as I roll out of town fully loaded.

I built it all out of steel, much easier than aluminum for me.

There are manufacturers running ally chassis and more will follow....

The comments about caravans being heavier than the tow vehicles isn’t ideal.....it what it is, up to the individual how close to the limit he wants to go

Every trip I headed south I would run my combination over the weigh bridge at work.....depending on which tug, one I would exceed rear axle limit and the other exceed front axle limit.......oh and always exceed the trailer ATM. Don’t reckon too many punters would check weights that often, whilst I knew my weights I didn’t adjust anything, hell I was already holding up the holiday as it takes time to weigh all three axles and tow Val.

When I sold the trailer I deregistered it as a 750 and re-registered it with an ATM 1400kg.

I to suspect a good number of combinations exceedGVM, ATM, GCM and individual axle weights.

Sure there seems to be more roadside checks which I think is a good thing, helps educated the uneducated. I also think think any state has commuted funds and resources to do a blanket roll out. If they actually fined owners and pulled them off the road immediately the few blitzes they do would make an impact pretty quick across the state.

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Originally Posted by weeds

Pop states it the operator responsibility

Pop agreed it is the operators responsibility

Pop also states he doesn’t know what a myth and what fact and asks for references

Pop has a fair idea about the myths and was requesting factual printed information

I assume pop doesn’t tow....given pops statement it the operators responsibility.

You could not be further from the truth if you tried

Not sure why pop is involved in the thread....sounding like a cracked record.

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I, like everyone else on the forum can be involved if they choose to be, no permissions or explanations required [thumbsupbig]

In 1971 my family of 5 went of a caravan trip - 16ft Franklin towed by the Valiant - we all fitted in and van probably weight about 1400kg loaded up and even with 5 in the car the car was not overloaded.

Fast forward to 2018 my brother has just bought a 22' Lotus Trooper which with his add ons comes in at around 3.5t and has every mod con you could imagine - more luxurious than his house - towed by his current model 4.5TDV8 Toyota 200 series sahara - with the van hooked up, the fat couple sitting in the front seats, full of fuel, bull bar etc the 200 series is overweight - all this for 2 people vs 45 years ago when a family of 5 could travel at almost half the weight.

Oh now we find the 200 series V8 while it can tow the behemoth it drinks like a drunken sailor - so the $130K Sahara is going to be sold off as it is not up to the job and a new American 7.2 Litre TDV8 Ute is going to be purchased to tow the behemoth. The interesting thing is that 10 years ago Bro was driving a Ford F250 with a 7.2 Litre TDV8 and it was a piece of crap that drank worse than a drunken sailor - it was traded for a new single turbo Landcruiser TDV8 which was underpowered and it was soon upgraded to the 200 series with its more powerful engine - still not good enough.

The process goes round and round all driven by bigger and bigger vans that weigh more and more and need bigger and bigger vehicles to tow them - it is the van wagging the tug.

The reality is that for most caravan trips even now - the old 1971 16' Franklin updated a bit would probably suffice.

Garry

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So bring on the roadside checks, and only those who are outside the regulations need worry.

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Hang on mate!
Maybe you should work out first who is to blame for this state of affairs.

My 1997 Camp-o-matic has a tare of 400Kg and a AGM of 750Kg. It was registered by NSW as that in 1997 and every year afterwards.
After I first saw the issues , I had it weighed, guess what a tare of about 750Kg .

I immediately fitted brakes to it even though in the 8 years I had owned it I had been around OZ twice.
It has ALKO parallel bearings which are rated to 1500Kg.

SO I wrote to the RTA (now (RMS) asking what could be done.
Answer go to an engineer and pay hundreds of $ to fix their stuff up.


I can recall talking to a trailer manufacturer who said no worries , any trailer manufacturer can write up a new plate. Unfortunately they went out of business before I got around to seeing them. I also spoke to Trak Shak who then owned Camp-o-Matic who said they were not interested. Trak Shak have now also gone.

I have met people who have bought caravans ( AVan 18 foot) where the towbar weight was much greater than the advertised weight , A van refused warranty or exchange or modification and they had to end up buying a new car to tow it.
I am sure that there are thousands of vans getting around over the towball weight or GVM.
But who should carry the can for this? the unwitting buyer or those actually responsible.?

Regards Philip A

I also live near Katherine in the NT and witness the yearly pilgrimage of overweight, overloaded nomads. The variety of car/van/camper/homemade shenanigans is never ending and you rarely see the same setup twice.

Over the few years I have witnessed this bird like behaviour, there has seemed to be a trend of change that has aligned itself with the better knowledge of weights and it actually being policed.

Originally the pick of the towing mix was Toyota's, a few dual cabs, very rarely a jeep or LR, then the American "truck" and actual truck. Now the mix is mostly dual cabs, 200 series Toyota's, Jeeps and LR are more common and a plethora of American trucks. The light duty trucks still get around but at no change.

It seems the Ranger and BT50 are the most popular, followed by the Isuzu/Holden utes. Prado, MU-X/Colorado and other family sized SUVs are still common, but no where near as much as previous years.

Another thing I have noticed is the 24 foot van towed by a 100 series with boat on roof type combination is much rarer. I would average one a day a couple of years ago, but I would say it's less than quarter of that now.

If there was a study to occur on towing combinations, weights and driver behaviour, Katherine would be the place to do it. Especially with the weighbridge that you can't dodge on the Stuart.

Now the subject of tare weights is close to my heart currently;
We have a 2013 Jayco Dove Outback (huge I know!) and it's tare weight is 1160kg, it's ATM is 1360kg and it's GTM is 1230kg. Towball weights are 133kg dry and 160kg Max. I haven't tested the towball weight, 1) I have a treg hitch and testing it is fiddly, 2) the D4 has 350kg capacity and 3) it will never go over weight. But I have weighed the van attached to the car. Rear axle Weight on the D4 was 1500(ish, the weighbridge is to the nearest 100 on the public display) and GTM was 1300. This GTM measurement is perplexing. We aren't the typical family to fill the van with cupboards or excessive clothes, don't take kids bikes or scooters, no toolboxes or additional fuel/water containers. But it seems a two burner butane stove, camping clothes line and camp kitchen put it 50-70kg overweight. This was also with a half empty water tank.

I have spoken to the dealer who we brought this van from and they have yet to get back to me with possible reasons for it being so close to GTM. It has been suggested to get a GTM upgrade, but I'm not spending money when I shouldn't have to.