Puma Transfer Case wear metals high

Thanks for everyone's comments...
One Iota...
I think in my case the heat is from the transfer rather than the exhaust. So far, I've found LR will readily rectify any problem, no matter how big, if they can confirm the problem, rather than dodge the issue. MR Automotive tell me the transfer case is the same as the previous model, so I guess it is.

Rick 130...
The oil was Bimrose 75W90, which I believe to be higher end quality, so should have more than met required specs. The oil lab tells me that if dust was the source of Silicon, aluminium would be approximately TWICE the Si reading. As you see below, Al is a mere 1/9th of Si, so they conclude gasket maker is the prime source of Si.

Cu 949; Fe 353; Cr 3; Pb 1; Al 27; Si 251; Sn 54

Yes sometimes lab reports don't show much light on things. It doesn't tell you how much visible, large iron particles are present, and in this case that was significant. But it did raise alarm bells indicating a problem, which is supported by the magnet plug debris. An independent LR mechanic did not pick up the problem, during a routine inspection, so the lab analysis was an excellent step in this case.

B92 8NW...
Yes, I was using our AW10 Antiwear, and it ran a little cooler than before. I could hold my hand on the seat box, although still hot. Initially I could not hold it there for more than 8-10 secs! Unfortunately it won't necessarily fix mechanical problems.

PAT 303...
Actually i have 99,000kms on the vehicle and only 40,000km on this oil, so it would have no run in wear metals in that oil. Occasionally the centre diff lock is activated when firm ground intersects loose stuff, and often gear changes are needed then. That's exactly when the severe driveline clatter takes place...it shouldn't be as violent as it is.

Rick 130...
Transfer running hot: Yeah I think viscosity choice is very much a balance between keeping mechanical friction, or metal to metal wear as low as possible, while also minimizing fluid friction or churning, which is more a problem with the higher viscosity oils. So you need a viscosity that is not too low to cause increased wear, and not too high to churn. At this stage, it appears that the 75W140 has it running cooler than before. A 75W110 may well be a good option as you suggest, but my main goal at this stage is to rectify the cause of the problem under the last 800kms of warranty left.

Cheers
Brid

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brid

[snip]
The oil lab tells me that if dust was the source of Silicon, aluminium would be approximately TWICE the Si reading. As you see below, Al is a mere 1/9th of Si, so they conclude gasket maker is the prime source of Si.

Cu 949; Fe 353; Cr 3; Pb 1; Al 27; Si 251; Sn 54

Yes sometimes lab reports don't show much light on things. It doesn't tell you how much visible, large iron particles are present, and in this case that was significant. But it did raise alarm bells indicating a problem, which is supported by the magnet plug debris. [snip]

Cheers
Brid

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Brid, the problem with analysis as you have found out is that the spectrograph only shows particles within a certain size range in a specific sample size, but a 'PQ Index' shows all contaminants regardless of size and is a very handy number to see when things are really going pear shaped.
A high PQ Index reading can indicate if a component is self destructing, something that may be missed in a slightly higher than normal Fe number for example.

Re the silicon, how long has it been since the last oil change and how long since any gaskets were replaced, or was spray on Hylomar used on the fill and drain plugs ?
Or is it still the original fill ? (which would explain the high silicon from using RTV as gaskets from the factory)

Without knowing too much about gearbox analysis, the chrome and lead look acceptable, (re the lead, you'd be amazed at what numbers a virgin analysis shows up at times :lol2: ) but the iron and copper are insane, as is the silicon.

BTW, do you have a TDS of that oil and its copper corrosion number ? (if a GL-5 you don't want it any higher than 1b )
If unbuffered reactive sulphur is used in the add package that could explain the high copper, leaching the copper from the bronze shims, etc.

I also wasn't joking when i said about contaminated oil.
some blenders can be less than clean when filling or when changing over tanks and can contaminate the oil.
I've known of one very expensive boutique oil that was giving less than stellar results and all the indicators pointed to poor filtration or some sort of dirt ingress.
After the client insisting everything was up to par the analyst told them to swap the oil for a Valvoline blend and get a VOA done on a small sample of their previous oil.
It was contaminated.
The UOA's looked 100% better than previous tests with the Valvoline oil.
The new, expensive synthetic oil was wearing out the engine as someone wasn't clean enough when filling the drums during the automated filling at wherever the oil was bottled.

G'day Rick130

Thanks for those comments. There is no silicon carry over as the oil's only done 40,000kms. I don't have the oil specs, so can't shed light on Cu corrosion factor, etc.

i guess a PQ Index would be of interest too, however, although I am sure I have problems, I don't think they are that advanced to fail in the short term...it is longer term I'm concerned with...when I don't have manufacturer's warranty.

As you say the Cr is low, although the interpretor felt it was early bearing wear. Cu and Fe are the real concern, and seem to confirm abnormal wear...which was the point of my exercise, so from that aspect, I feel that the analysis was worthwhile.

Are you of the opinion that the spectro analysis is of no use? Just not sure if that is your thoughts, or no use in isolation?

I have found it very useful on several occasions (eg identified early dust entry into newly fitted 4BD1, and coolant leak in same (just had to retension head to rectify), and also confirming no problems in others.

i might ask for PQ on next occasion though as you suggest.

Regards

Brid

Brid, I always get PQ done too in concert with the normal tests, it just paints a fuller picture. eg. when you have a valve stem cap failure in a 300Tdi the Fe isn't catastrophic but your PQ goes through the roof.

Re the silicon, I'm no expert and not an analyst but I'd re-test in 5,000km with fresh oil (different brand too, stuff going for trend) in the t/case (I know this is outside warranty so a possible PITA re a future claim) and look at your numbers again.
That silicon is not coming from gaskets, not after this long, and AFAIK no one uses anywhere near that amount for anti-foaming (IIRC, try around 15PPM) the only place it can come from is externally.
Add sodium to the test schedule too, the labs only look at it as an indicator for coolant, but, if that's high alongside your silicon it's dirt ingress.

In the meantime really give everything a good going over to see if the breather is snapped or broken on the t/case, etc.
I'd be taking it up with Land Rover straight away too, those numbers are major, major wear. It's lunching itself pretty quickly.

oh, forgot to add I've run a mix of 75W-90 and 80W-140 for years too.
Gears are funny things, they run cooler with a lighter fluid but you nearly always get better protection the heavier you go.
80W-140 is good in a Salisbury IMO too. They run hot and if towing, it should help a fair bit. The Rover diffs run a lot cooler.

Na was done too, and it was minor..haven't got thereport at hand, but I think it was 1. And it has done a little beach work on that oil, so if there was extraneous contamination, Na should have been a little higher..although it wasn't a lot of beach work.

I'll have a good chance tomorrow to check out breathers all round. There's no sigh of oil weeps from above so I think the selector area shouldn't be an entry point for dust.

My gut tells me that it is a build issue, something internal not assembled right, too much point loading somewhere..that sort of thing...mainly because it has always run a lot hotter than my 2005 Defender.

I thought I should provide an update on the transfer case wear metals problem. I have now done a further 43,000kms on the 75W140 GL5 synthetic oil. The oil is still as bright as new, and no evidence of visible wear metals or oil contamination. I did an electrolite test comparing the oil with an unused sample, and it suggested no significant wear metals as well, so at this stage I haven't sent a sample off to the lab for analysis.

This leaves me wondering about the cause of the severe wear that was occurring before I changed to the 75W140 oil...

Was the oil not up to the job?

Or...Was it a one off incident? (I know that I did the Simpson on the oil service period that had the wear metals & that on numerous occasions centre diff lock slipped out for several sand dunes, until I realized. XS centre diff spinning could cause it??)

Or...The 75W140 offers exceptional severe duty protection, but could it stop that wear in its tracks?

Anyone had similar experiences with the transfer case or thoughts on the matter?

Brid

Thanks for the heads up mate.

Just a FWIW, the bloke that used to do my analysis had a customer using a premium boutique syn engine oil that was showing high (really high) wear metals and evidence of dirt ingress.

The customer went right through everything, couldn't locate the source of dirt so the oil bloke suggested some run of the mill but good quaity Valvoline xW-40 engine oil as a control.

Problem solved.

The customer had a small amount of the original oil and had it tested.
Contaminated at bottling. (I suspect it was bottled here, imported in bulk)

It's also possible for an oil to have the wrong add pack added, or no additive pack too at a blending plant.

With humans involved anything can happen.

Thanks for the heads-up on this issue. I only have about 7000km on mine so a long way to go yet, but I'm a little concerned about some serious noise I'm hearing in my transfer case too. Much like you I get serious clunking at gear changes with the centre diff engaged (and this is on the soft stuff), and it even disengages without notice at times too, with a resounding clank when it does. I'm a little nervous about what this might end up doing. I'll watch this thread with interest.

every puma i have driven, the seat box and rear floor gets very hot wile driving after about 30mins or so,, all so, your oil sample, do you have a sample of the previous oil change from new or from another car to compare,,

as we had a 2010 puma blow a engine with 12k on the clock, (yes 12.000km) the customer demand a oil sample be taken and was sent off to castrol test lab, pretty much they say this sample means nothing with out another control and about 20 other samples to put side buy side, to find a avg and go from there, ;) just a thort,