EGR Valve Noise

Hi all.
First of all I want to apologise for my posting technique. I'll work it out.

"You will notice that the pedal position sensor indicates full throttle which if the EGR was connected, the EGR position would be showing 100% instead of zero."

Are you sure about that?
I would like to see live data that demonstrated that. Apologies for being sceptical about this but it goes against everything I've been taught and there are alot of fallacies about EGR and reprogramming PCM's (generally) and some of these remaps will destroy your engine.
The example's you have given really need to be comparing apples for apples. But still very interesting. Thanks.

What program is that live data taken from?

Thanks
Andy

Hi Andy,

the live data screens were only posted to show that the EGR stays closed through the remap the whole time and the OEM file was used as a comparison. The live data was recorded as an avi file from a MSV2 on to my laptop.
As to the remaps destroying engines, I have not heard of any from people using the Alive or BAS remaps on a Puma, could you clarify if this isn't the case? The reason Alive and BAS get such good reviews and are well respected is because they produce their own remap files and do not use generic files like other companies who specialise in tuning any car. They are both Land rover experts when it comes to tuning and Pete Bell from BAS was actually the first person to do any research and development into remapping a Puma.

Defender2 - View topic - BAS/Allisport Puma Defender 2007 development - public for th

I can only speak for Alive now as this is who I have had the most experience with. Gary tests all his new maps on his own Defender before releasing them to his customers, in fact I was involved in the EGR closed upgrade testing.

Defender2 - View topic - Alive Tunings No EGR Upgrade

As to the EGR live data concerning the 100% at full throttle, It's not, it's zero but only when the pedal is on the floor. I can confirm this as I have just spent the last 3 hours testing my Puma with the scangauge,nanocom and MSV.

If the pedal is held just of the floor when accelerating I get the EGR showing
being open about 70%:

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...0/egr17911.jpg



But when I push the pedal completely to the floor the EGR reads zero until I lift my foot then it returns to a high reading:

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/.../3egr17911.jpg

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...0/egrhigh2.jpg

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/.../2egr17911.jpg

I now know that the scangauge doesn't give an accurate reading for the EGR because when accelerating as it goes straight to 100%. The live data from the MSV and nanocom gave accurate indications based solely on each others readings and so I will plug in the IDS/VCM system tomorrow and go and do some more tests to confirm the readings.
So I now have to agree with you that at 100% acceleration the valve is closed but also when not at 100% acceleration, as in normal driving the valve is open 75% most of the time with fluctuations up and down. :TakeABow::TakeABow:

Though I must admit I like it closed 100% of the time. :twisted::p

Andy. If you pm me your email address I will send you the complete live data recordings I made for this answer.

Here is a picture of the EGR Electrical Plug should you wish to unplug the EGR. The MIL will illuminate and will log DTC's P1402 and P1409 and will not go into limp mode. The DTC's can be deleted only once the plug is re attached otherwise the codes will re appear. I used to have this unplugged until I remapped with no issues other than the MIL.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...10818-1806.jpg

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...10818-1825.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Thanks for that reply.

The remaps I was thinking about are on petrol engines and not Land Rover (apologies for the confusion). When a remap is done the parameters that indicate a fault detected by the Oxygen or knock sensors is shifted so much the MIL will never be illuminated. Allowing the engine to run very lean while at cruise, therefore returning a great fuel economy but at the cost of engine reliabilty.

The reason I asked about the EGR was purely from a technical point of view (my knowledge of electronic diesel is some what more limited). I thought maybe they have started using EGR at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) as part of emmission control.
One of the reason it is not used (in all example's I know of) at WOT it effectivly reduces the size of the engine and therefore your 2.5 becomes a 2.2L. So you may of well bought a 2.2L in the first place. Their is a lot more to it than that. But...
I guess why fuel economy is improved on cruise with the EGR off is because higher gas tempretures are achieved therefore a greater amount of expansion in the combustion chamber (???? Not sure). If someone is able to confirm that it would be great. A pyrometer measuring exhaust gas temp with and without EGR at cruise would be interesting.

Cheers.
Andy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nobbyclrk

I guess why fuel economy is improved on cruise with the EGR off is because higher gas tempretures are achieved therefore a greater amount of expansion in the combustion chamber (???? Not sure). If someone is able to confirm that it would be great. A pyrometer measuring exhaust gas temp with and without EGR at cruise would be interesting.

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I have noticed that the fuel demanded drops slightly at cruise with a known engine load and revs with the EGR closed and take this info as meaning a cleaner burn as the exhaust gases are not lowering the combustion temp. As we all know that the EGR gases being recycled into the Inlet manifold and then into the combustion chamber actually lower the combustion temp therefore reducing power output as a by product of the recycled emissions. And with the EGR closed the power output will be as you say more comparable with the 2.4 fitted compared to a functioning EGR's power drop in the same engine. I have a thermocouple fitted downstream of the Turbo which is not accurate enough or in the correct position to monitor the differences in having a functioning/ disabled EGR. However in the near future I will be replacing the Turbo unit with a hybrid and ergo will also need to replace the exhaust manifold. I will then take the opportunity to drill and weld on a nut on the upstream side of the turbo flange to allow fitting of a new thermocouple to give more accurate EGT readings, or hopefully this will come as standard on the new manifold so I will take up your interest in the temps and will post them once everything is changed next year. The other options are to blank the EGR, which I think will cause MAP issues unless the EGR outlet assembly is re fabricated to over come this, as one German company is looking into with an already designed prototype.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...0/EgrBlank.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Unfortunately the blank comes with a problem, the MIL will illuminate as the EGR has been removed. The only way around this is a software patch or possibly the design of a plug in box attached to the vehicle looms EGR plug to simulate the EGR functions and signal returns to the ECU. Though if you have the EGR closed on the remap would you need to blank the EGR?
Personally I think the remap is a better and not as permanent as removing the EGR altogether, as it can be swapped out in under 10 mins. I also think that even if you did blank the EGR you would still need some alterations done to the existing OEM fuel file to take into account the changed parameters that the ECU uses to determine the EGR position. We all know that the ECU uses the information from the MAP and Manifold air pressure, TPS, Fuel rail pressure, Engine temp/coolant temp, MAF,Barometric and air intake temp against the factory settings stored in the fuel map file to set the EGR opening %. So by changing say, reducing the MAP because the Gas transfer and mixer pipe has been removed due to the blank then the OEM map settings would not equate to the readings being received by the MAP sensor. But as you say there is more to it than that...........

As a side project I am curious as to the temp of the EGR cooler pipe (No3 in the bottom pic) with the EGR closed and working as normal? I have a contact thermocouple for my Fluke DMM which I think I'll wrap around the cooler pipe and do some more testing with the EGR closed and open. I'm just curious if when the cooler blank is fitted if there would be any rise in temp or if the temps would stay the same or if the cooler would actually drop the EGT in the exhaust manifold? Anybody any thoughts on this? Would the coolant pipes even need to be attached as the EGR is gone, or will removing them increase the EGT and pressure in the manifold?

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...rvalvepic2.jpg


Brian.

Very interesting reading but I think re-mapping is starting to get a bit too technical for me.......I have come from owning a 1985 Stage 1 V8 3.5L to now owning a puma.......prefer the old dash but love the mod cons inc. coil suspension, a/c, power steering...aaaahhhh the comforts.

In an attempt to reduce the volume of the annoying valve cleaning noise on shutdown, I have decided that I will remove the EGR valve and clean with brake fluid as suggested by Lorryman100. Seems to me relatively straightforward removal and installation process involving unplugging the electrical connector, removing 4 bolts and replacing 2 gaskets. That simple hey? I am hoping the parts that require to be cleaned (to remove carbon build-up etc.) will be obvious to me once the unit is removed for inspection? Anyone done this before with good results?

If this doesn't work then I will investigate to purchase a new valve.

With my BAS remap, the EGR self cleaning still cycles at shut down. Some people on the forum say thier BAS remap cancels out the cleaning cycle. I wonder if I have the EGR closed option (it was ordered and paid for), and Peter from Bell Auto says the cleaning cycle is still active even with the closed option. Any thoughts

I don't know what the problem is,mines done the cleaning shukker shukker a few times and I can hardly hear it.I think complaining about a 3-4 second shukker shukker every now and then is getting a bit princess like. Pat

I have not heard the EGR cleaning cycle since my BAS re-map was installed.
Not once....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PAT303

I don't know what the problem is,mines done the cleaning shukker shukker a few times and I can hardly hear it.I think complaining about a 3-4 second shukker shukker every now and then is getting a bit princess like. Pat

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When the valve is goosed Pat it sounds like an old dunney door swinging in the wind. You can hear it 20 mtrs away:D. Not a good sound when parking next to a Poorole or Tojo.

Allan