Thread: Puma 130 driveline vibration

Which WSM ?

The one's I have show the rear uni's in phase, only the front shaft is out of phase.

"The phasing is necessary on the front shaft only to allow for greater variation in angular changes"

It's a basic rear end on a 130 with a relatively long tailshaft so angular changes are less for a given amount of suspension travel compared to a 110 or worse, a 90, and a TDci has the tail of the transfer case at a lower height in the chassis than any LT85/95/77/R380 gearboxed 127/130.
If it happens in a 130 the problem will be exacerbated in a 110 and 90.

I know of TW's reputation, I plan on acquiring one of his DC front shafts for my 130, but a double DC in the rear of 130 ?
I just can't get my head around that ATM.

I suppose the point is that yes, it's a fix and it works, but is it necessary ?
Without actually eyeballing and measuring it seems like something basic has been missed ?

Rick, from what Bob has described there are other changes (than what I was aware of) with the so-called Puma that contribute to the problem. I was aware of the driveline angle affecting the front shaft! but now .... !!!

I have commented in other posts on this subject concerning issues caused by small tube diameter etc. with a long driveshaft.

Edit: BTW double cardan at one end is not my first choice and not to be used unless there is no other option. As for double cardan at both ends, I dread the thought, but remember TW is working with what he can control. Fixing the angles and offsets is for others (e.g. LR) to resolve.

Originally Posted by rick130

Which WSM ?

The one's I have show the rear uni's in phase, only the front shaft is out of phase.

It's a basic rear end on a 130 with a relatively long tailshaft so angular changes are less for a given amount of suspension travel compared to a 110 or worse, a 90, and a TDci has the tail of the transfer case at a lower height in the chassis than any LT85/95/77/R380 gearboxed 127/130.
If it happens in a 130 the problem will be exacerbated in a 110 and 90.

I know of TW's reputation, I plan on acquiring one of his DC front shafts for my 130, but a double DC in the rear of 130 ?
I just can't get my head around that ATM.

I suppose the point is that yes, it's a fix and it works, but is it necessary ?
Without actually eyeballing and measuring it seems like something basic has been missed ?

The WSM is Land Rover published " Land Rover Defender, 2.4TDCi,Workshop Manual" The relevant page dated Jan 30 2009 states ' The front and rear driveshafts are phased with the joints at each end, A and B mis-aligned as shown. The phasing is necessary to allow for greater variation in angular changes. On re-assembly it is essential the driveshafts are aligned correctly'
It is interesting that the manual makes no distinction between 110 and 130 models. Mine is a 2008 130. My previous 1996 130 did not have this vibration but did have a rhythmic hum at about the same speed.
The manual states that if there is vibration then the universals sholud be checked, and then transfer box operation and wheel balance.ULR tried everything within their limits as a dealer, swapping driveshaft,gearbox,transfer box etc and could not cure. A diff specialist likewise could not solve. L/R shipped vehicle to Sydney and could not or would not solve the issue. No-one on forums could offer help. The double cardan shaft solved the problem. I'm happy. Cheers.

John, it'd be really interesting to know what the angles are/where everything is pointing.

It seems a lot like the P38 style rear diff, they just keep sending them out poorly setup and in JC's word's "These 2003 on 110 / 130 rear P38a diffs are rubbish. Period. The inherent design is weak, and they aren't up to it." yet LR appear ok to just keep replacing them every 40,000km or so.

The paranoid conspiracy theorist in me wonders if there's a master plan ?

"If we bleed enough money on Defender, regardless of how many we sell we can prove it's not viable and drop it" ?

I should point out that the double cardan shaft was not Tom Wood's suggestion, but my own. He believed that there should be a cheaper option. However, nobody has been able to suggest one that takes into account the variation in horizontal and vertical angles and the changes due to different loads. I did not wish to import anything less than the DC shaft as it probably would not have addressed all issues and solved the problem and would have been a waste of funds. Cheers.