Thread: wont crank! bad timing please help

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 10:38 AM
man this is bad timing

well im not sure where to post this i just thought is reach out and see if anyone had any suggestions........

Post hurricane sandy im over here trying to help people with much bigger problems then me......... Im suppose to be rebuilding a familys roof today that had a large tree fall on it........probably trying to do to much to soon but how do you say no to people who are living with no heat and no power with a hole in there house.

anyway i drove home no problem yesterday......get out of truck for about 3 minutes and go to restart the truck and it wont start....

turns over fine just will not fire.

i try until my battery dies and decide to leave it for about 2 hours.....

came back and jump started it.....turns over for awhile....almost starts but doesnt.....

i leave the jumper cables on for awhile and now there is NOTHING....glow plugs light up........fuel pump comes on all normal but when i turn the key there is nothing....no click....just nothing......

im no mechanic so normally i would call up a local shop and let someone look at it..........but there is NOTHING open.......land rover monmouth is less than a mile from me and they are closed.......

does anyone have any thoughts on what could be wrong?
is there anyone local who knows of a shop with power who will work on a TD5 diesel?
timing on this couldnt be worse......

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 10:54 AM
This is fuel starvation before the IP. either your fuel filter is so restricted that engine consums more than pump can pull through, or your pump is failing and can't keep pressure. The fact that it would start up after a while has to do with pressure equalization over time (if it sits a while the vaccum created from a higher draw than supply equalizes). Since it's a TD5 I know there's an ECU involved, and not sure how much control the ECU has over fueling, but there's normally at least a limp mode with rover ecu's.

don't suppose you have a spare filter? crack the injectors to see if fuel leaks at injector when it turns over. that will be telling. all diesels need is fuel, air and compression. I'm assuming you don't have an air or compression issue overnight just like that.

any chance somehow your air filter got wet? that would choke it. Do you have a water seperator? drain quite a bit out if you have a bleed valve.

If all else fails, remove the fuel filter, dump it completely out, and let it dry in the sun completely (in case there is water contamination). reinstall prime and hope for the best.

Diesel drivers should always have a spare filter on hand. it's just good practice. (trust me on this-btw, I need to order my replacement).

good luck.

------ Follow up post added November 2nd, 2012 10:57 AM ------

I almost forgot. figure out where your fuel stop solenoid is and check the wire! Also check all wires to all that fancy schmancy crap on the engine. My buddy just had his Jetta TDI lose power and then die on him. After an inspection at the dealer, it ended up being a wire that broke going to a temp sensor on his intake manifold. F' ECU's!

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 11:00 AM
hey i appreciate that and will do all those things....sounds very plausible.......my only issue is the truck wont turn over now......even with jumper cables attached it wont do anything......so even if i fix the original problem could i have done something else?

is there anything i can look at now?

before it was turning over and just not starting....

NOW there is no turning over, no clicking, when i turn the key there is no noise....NOTHING

Red90 November 2nd, 2012 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander (Post 384832)
crack the injectors to see if fuel leaks at injector when it turns over. that will be telling.

any chance somehow your air filter got wet? that would choke it. Do you have a water seperator? drain quite a bit out if you have a bleed valve.

figure out where your fuel stop solenoid is and check the wire!!
None of this is applicable to a common rail engine......

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 11:05 AM
if the battery was completely worn down, it could take 10-15 minutes of charging just to get it do click. do you have a multimeter to check state of charge? do you get any voltage reading at all from dash gauge when you turn ignition to position 2?

I'm thinking in Jersey there has to be a 100 abandoned cars laying around with batteries you could "borrow". turning over (starting seperate issue) is as simple as ignition switch charging the starter solenoid to close direct circuit between battery and starter to turn over. not even clicking means that the battery is just dead, the battery connection is loose/corroded, or the wire between ignition and solenoid has been interrupted.

------ Follow up post added November 2nd, 2012 11:06 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 (Post 384841)
None of this is applicable to a common rail engine......

I have no experience with common rail or TD5, so if you have some value add, go ahead and give it up.

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 11:11 AM
i appreciate the help very much..........

and yes the dash all lights up like normal. everything seems like it has juice....

when i turn to position 2 the glow plugs warm up and shut off like normal......you can also here the fuel pump? or oil pump? im not sure turn on and turn off like normal.......

then i turn to start and there is no noise at all...no click.......

could i have BROKE something trying to jump start it? or turning it over too much.......could i overheat and fry something?

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 11:15 AM
i seriously doubt it. I think you only have enough voltage to run electronic dash (like 11ish volts) but not enough to actually move the starter solenoid to close the circuit and turn the starter. you need a jump.` I guess the TD5 doesn't have a volt gauge?

------ Follow up post added November 2nd, 2012 11:17 AM ------

If I were you, I would be looking for loose connections right now on the engine, and checking all fuses (main panel under bonnet and the under dash), before attempting any more starts. solve the running problem before working on the starting problem.

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 11:22 AM
ok thanks for the help......does turn out that i have a new fuel filter i havent installed yet......ive never done it before so this will be my first time.....

i will check all wires, fuses, change the fuel filter, prime, charge up battery and see if i can get the thing to start......

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 11:24 AM
do all those things, and I can't imagine what would keep it from starting and running, unless there's a dead cat that crawled into your intake during the night.

Red90 November 2nd, 2012 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander (Post 384842)
I have no experience with common rail or TD5, so if you have some value add, go ahead and give it up.
Make sure you have fuel after the fuel filter. Easy to check with bleed port or cracking a line. Then hook up a computer. That is it....

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 11:57 AM
do you happen to have a computer that will read my TD5 ecu?

does anyone have a computer that will read my ecu?

Id love to turn off this stinkin engine immobilizer while im at it.......

tjfslaughter November 2nd, 2012 12:04 PM
Pm sent. It's probably the immobilizer. Change the battery in it.

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 12:07 PM
If you change the filter, here is a quote from someone that posted the TD5 fuel line purging procedure:

"ust to be sure, the official procedure (or at least the one I know of !) for purging the air is...

Turn the ignition off for at least 15 seconds as this makes sure the ECU resets.
Turn the ignition key to position 2 and wait 3 minutes (this purges any air from the fuel rail)
Push the throttle to the floor and crank the engine keeping the throttle wide open (it needs to be more than 90% throttle or the purging ceases) and you need to crank continuously as stopping cranking will also stop the purging.
Max cranking time is 30 seconds, if it doesn't start after 30 seconds you have to repeat.

If you do have air in the system it will be between the regulator and the injectors and the above steps will "tell" the ECU that it needs to open the injectors for a longer period than normal so the air has a chance to bleed through. Because of that though, using it when there isn't air in the system can flood the cylinder with too much fuel making it difficult to start. "

TD5 won't start no matter what.... - Defender Forum - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum

tjfslaughter November 2nd, 2012 12:10 PM
Mark. The pedal sequence takes about 10 times to fully purge the air out after changing filter....

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 12:13 PM
Damn! I"m going to go hug my 2.8. BRB.

tjfslaughter November 2nd, 2012 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander (Post 384872)
Damn! I"m going to go hug my 2.8. BRB.
It only takes about 5 min....

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 12:42 PM
OK, it was a hug and some white castles from the freezer. now I feel all fuzzy and warm inside.

Oxcart13 November 2nd, 2012 02:03 PM
Yeah, sounds like the immobilizer. Can you post what lights you see on the dash when trying to start? What does the red light in the speedo do? And the engine light? Mark

winn442 November 2nd, 2012 02:04 PM
There are two relays (more if you have factory A/C or ABS/ETC) under the seat where the ECU resides, to the inside of the fuse box, can't remember which one, but I had the same symptoms, had just a slight bit of corrosion on one the the relay blades, plugged it in and out several times to get a good connection, fired right up.....

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 04:39 PM
im at work now so i will work on all this tomarow and see how it goes......

the little red light is on like normal when i get in and the immobilizer light (the engine with the lightning bolt on it) doesnt light up....like normal...

my key fob is brand new....everything on the dash seems normal like it always does.......

when i turn the key to position 2 everything seems normal...i hear the fuel pump whine for like 2 seconds like normal.......i go and turn to position 3 and there is no noise.....not even a starter click.....

the battery looks clean, no corrosion.......i will look under the passenger seat where the relays are but last time i looked it was clean enough to eat off........

of course having no phones, no internet and no electric @ home is not making this any easier....

Ben01 November 2nd, 2012 05:34 PM
If the fuel pump is whining, it is not the pump. It is very hard to get diesel right now so be careful how far you go. If the pump is whining, it means it is on its way out to begin with. I actually have an extra if you need it, but that is another conversation.

Purging the fuel line (by I think pumping the pedal with the ignition in run position) will not do it. The fuel pump may whine more but you wont get the engine on in this case.

It could be a relay, check the ones under the driver's seat.

It is possible that it is a fuel filter, but the one time my filter was bad in the 300tdi, I was able to get the truck to start. I have changed the filters regularly in the td5 so don't know from experience.

Do you have an alarm or remote central? I would guess it actually has something to do with your alarm (if you have one). If the alarm is not disengaging and the fuel is low, I think the pump would start whining and the truck would not start. Try another remote if you do have remote central locking. The alarm could also be using up too much power from the battery.

Lastly, take your battery out and bring it to an auto store to be tested. It could be a bad battery. If you search bad battery in a td5 in the British forums it does happen more frequently than on a 300tdi.

Hope this helps...my first guess would be the battery so keep that in mind. I highly doubt it is the ECU.


Ben

------ Follow up post added November 2nd, 2012 05:36 PM ------

A really can go bad without corrosion.

golden747 November 2nd, 2012 06:03 PM
It definitely sounds like the immobilizer.

Ben01 November 2nd, 2012 07:18 PM
I'm just not sure the fuel pump would turn on with the immobiliser (or alarm as I called it) still engaged. Get your battery tested and charged and try a different remote as the immediate first steps. If the battery is fine you can also follow the instructions in the owner's manual to disable the alarm.

Also, I once had an issue with a low battery, but the fob wouldn't lock/unlock the doors...once it unlocked the doors the truck started immediately. So if it is working to unlock your truck, it is likely not the battery.

Oxcart13 November 2nd, 2012 07:44 PM
Kolton - some data to help you hopefully rule out the immobilizer. My truck is a 99. Speedo red light flashes before getting in, goes solid with the door open, and flashes again once the door is shut, until the key is turned, then goes out. Yellow engine light illuminates briefly in key position two then goes out. I separated my key from the FOB and tried it again. The red engine light with the lightening bolt illuminated when I turned the key. So based on your posting, should be able to rule out the immobilizer. Battery? Ignition switch? If it's not turning over it has nothing to do with the ECU. Hope this helps. Mark

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 08:59 PM
yes mark thank you.....my truck goes thru the exact same sequence as yours.......i think the ECU and immobilizer are fine.

like i said, never had a problem, drove home, turned truck off, got back in truck literally 3 minutes later and it turned over but would not start.......i tried for about 30 seconds and then left it to sit for about 2 hours.
came back and turned it over for about another 30 seconds till the battery started to die.

I hooked up jumper cables and it turned over very enthusiastically and ALMOST started...got a little rumble out of it.

figured id let the battery charge up so i waited about 3 minutes and went to turn it over and now its totally dead as a doornail........

that was last night.....i stuck the key back in when i got home just to see and its the same....... I've had many dead battery and in my experience you usually get some sort of sluggish clicking or something.....im talking even hooked up with jumper cables to another truck its totally dead......

im gonna play around tomorrow in the day light and see if i can make any progress.....again thank you very very much....

it really is appreciated guys..

JSBriggs November 2nd, 2012 09:03 PM
Have you ruled out water in the fuel?

-Jeff

koltonstanley November 2nd, 2012 09:10 PM
im not ruling anything out.......i did fill up diesel at a pump that may have been underwater from sandy a few days prior......i understand that being a reason for the truck not to fire up......by why do i now have the problem of no turning over?

i feel like i have 2 problems now.....truck wont turn over.....once it turns over THEN it wont start.....

if it was turning over i think i could change fuel filter, bleed air and get it to start......

Oxcart13 November 2nd, 2012 09:32 PM
Kolton - I think you are on the right track. Get the truck to crank with some vigor first. Then see if you have another problem. I'm still betting on the battery.

Some ancillary information that may come in handy:

I've changed the fuel filter on my truck several times. I've just turned the key to position two, and let the pump do it's thing. You'll hear a high pitched sounds for a few seconds, and then it will return to the normal tone. It's just pushing the fuel to the engine and back to the tank and once any air is out the pump sound normal again. After that, position 3 on the switch and cranks right up.

Only the crank position sensor is needed for the truck to run. If any of the rest of the sensors are bad, the default settings will be used by the ECU. If the throttle position sensor is bad, the truck will start, but only idle.

I have a Nanocom. I'm hoping it doesn't come to this and you get it running tomorrow, but if you don't I would be glad to send it to you FEDEX on Monday to aide in the troubleshooting.

Mark

Ben01 November 2nd, 2012 10:17 PM
Your battery is most likely juiced. Search the Forums in the UK. For some reasons batteries have a greater tendency to go bad on a td5.

Overlander November 2nd, 2012 11:43 PM
if you only trying cranking twice for 30 seconds each and then it started showing signs of dying, thats a different story all together and I'm suspecting battery now too. I aas under impression you were cranking repeatedly for 5-10 minutes. two 30 second cranks is nothing for a healthy battery. you need a voltmeter or multimeter to confirm on the spot. check if yoir headlights come on fully bright or dim.

best of luck. battery is going to be easier to confirm and replace then anything else. maybe you have a friend or neighbor that will let you borrow a healthy battery just for a test. only takes 10 to pull a battery.

eco 45 November 3rd, 2012 12:05 AM
When computers are involved a dieing battery can cause all sort of issues.

Step 1 check condition of battery
Step 2 check all fuses and relays
Step 3 check wire connections--especially to the starter
(It is possible to kill a starter if you crank it continuous for more than 30 seconds at a time....especially if the truck has some miles on it)

If all three things check out fine above you can use a jumper to activate the starter to see if it works at all. This would bypass your security system and at least let you know if the starter is working or not.

Good luck. Computerized trucks are great when they run, but mechanical engines are nicer to fix to in the field.

koltonstanley November 3rd, 2012 12:09 PM
still no luck

ok guys before i can even try all your great suggestions i need to figure out why this truck will not turn over.

the battery seems good to me......i have a charger hooked up that reads full, even with it hooked up i get nothing.

all the lights and dash and everything seems normal, immobilizer seems normal.
checked all the fuses they all seem to be good, checked all relays that i can find they all seem good.

looked for any loose wires, everything seems good.

when i turn the key i do hear a very very faint click coming from what sounds like behind the dash?


If there is anyone near asbury park NJ that could look at the truck im more then willing to pay......i even have gas or diesel if you need it.........

surf110 November 3rd, 2012 12:53 PM
3 Attachment(s)
If the battery died or got disconnected, you need to reset your alarm system. There's a procedure for this based on a security code that came with your vehicle where you open and close the door a number of times to enter this code. The owners manual should explain this. See photo below

I have a Nanocom you can borrow. I'm on the west coast though. Overnight shipping won't be cheap.

try this...

with the ignition in the on position (fuel pump running) and the vehicle in neutral

using some wire rated for 10A+ from a known strong positive (the charge lead on the back of the alternator or the main +ve feed on the starter if your hands are dexterious enough) to the small tab on the solenoid to see if it will throw the starter.

if that gets it to crank its the feed to the starter from the start relay if that does nothing its the starter.