Thread: Fitting upgraded Axles, CVs and converting to oil lubed hubs

Originally Posted by mools

So.....

at the moment I'm toying with the idea of keeping all of the seals and just upgrading the outer seals to higher spec (RTC3511 / FTC4785 type) and tapping a fill and drain hole in each of the HD flanges. I've measured them up and it looks like theres plenty of meat on them to accommodate a couple of 5 - 7 mm holes. This way I have drainable oil lubed hubs, greased CV's / swivels (not drainable due to no drain plug), and (of course, hopefully?) oil in the diff. The main advantage to this being a reduced chance of cross contamination between these areas if / when seals fail and allow them to be checked for contamination independently. It dawned on me that without a drain plug in the swivel housing it'll always be a strip down job to replace the lube in there as you can never drain the bottom of the swivel housing through the hub or the diff. If it had a drain I'd use oil in the swivels (not tap the hubs) and change regularly but I don't plan on breaking these down too often so grease I think is a better long term option for the CV given longer service intervals.

Any comments on the above plan would be gladly received.

Thanks,

Ian.

Ian,
Is there any good reason that you can't drill and tap drain holes in the swivel hubs while it's all in bits?

Tony

I'm not seeing a benefit in having 5 different oil levels to check in the front axle assembly.

Lately I've been considering ditching the inner seals and just having one fill/level to worry about.

I just did all this last week... I've kept three 'oil compartments'. Retain the diff/ axle as one. Replace the seals in the axle ends. As I had a leaking swivel balls I replaced the seals at this point. Replace the needle roller bearing that supports the new Ashcroft CV, but leave the old seal in there as it acts as a bearing spacer. Cut the lip out of it though to allow the oil to migrate. Remember to replace all your hub seals for the 'oil type' as the ones fitted will be the grease type! As you are fitting the HTE shafts, as said before, you won't have to worry about oil leaks. It should be noted though, do NOT use loctite on the end caps as you will never get them off again. Also be prepared to find stretched 'End Cap' bolts... All mine needed replacing as some heavy handed monkey had been in there before and stretched them all and broken one, along with using a chisel on the hub nuts!!

Ok, one last important note, when you buy your front HTE axle shafts, I'm assuming you are combining them with a set of the Ashcroft CV's to suit the later axle... In this case, you won't be supplied with the 'CV upgrade kit' as the CV's are built to match your old ones.. Your new shafts won't come with the spacer and snap ring needed to fit/lock them to the CV, so you will need to order the correct ones (RTC4820 ring and FTC254 spacer) of the earlier axles or you will end up with floating axles!

I bought my Detroit and Trutrac from Lucky8 on here as he was half the OZ prices, and all the shafts came from Les Richmond Auto (HTE recommended him)! Good luck!

Hi,

some good responses there, thanks, it is appreciated.

I have a few answers and a few more questions so...

Drover, you are spot on I am over thinking it - thats what I tend to do. Do the theory then the practice. Yes, maybe getting going in to things a little far but I can reign myself in later if need be, that's what usually happens. But with regard to the end float (not the wheel bearing) that's a very real concern as if I'm laying out the expense I dont want to shaft anything longer term with a sloppy install. Tried and tested install - yes it is, but tried and tested by me - no.

Tony, in an ideal world I would put a drain plug in the swivel housing but... I dont have a drill press and don't want too much down time on the truck. Whilst I can take the driveflanges to be drilled and tapped before stripping it all down the same is not true for the swivel housing. Compromise I know but that's life.

Dougal, the reasons for keeping the compartments separate would be a) easier to trace which seals become defective. b) less chance of cross contamination if / when seals fail, these are explicitly stated in my post from 21st April 2013 04:13 PM. I could add that it could make it slightly easier / less messy to strip down to get at somthing on the outside of the hub, say a wheel bearing. On the negative side more levels to check but that does not bother me - its a plus. I don't find the level is the worry per-se, more the reason why the level is not as it should be is the worry, separate compartments could help determine whats up quicker - but having said that - there is a lot to be said for KISS and oil leaks are usually (relatively)easy to find. I both agree and disagree with you .

Sitec, you preempted some questions RE the seal and its use as a bearing spacer but also raised some more...
What did you use to cut the lip off the seal?

Do you think it is nesesary to replace the needle roller bearing? I wasn't planning on doing this, was yours worn? My truck is relatively low KM's (circa 100k)

Also, regarding the spacer and circlips for the half shafts, thanks for the part no's very useful to know. But I was planning to use the spacer off the half shafts I remove and new circlips came with the CV's and the halfshafts (which are Ashcroft not HTE), but please let me know if you think this would present a problem.

So all in all, the jury is still out on exactly how I'm going to convert to oil lubed hubs - my main bug bear being that undrainable 'sump' in the swivel housing. But I'll think on it some more.

In the mean time any further advise or suggestions glady received,

regards,

Ian.

re draining the swivel sans a drain plug. I was doing this research exercise last year until i bought a house and all my money has disappeared.

In my reading I came across somewhere that you can release the metal retention gasket that holds the external swivel seal in place and the oil drains out.

Taking the part number off Bearmach catalogue page 3 for VA.... on

FTC3401 oil seal
FRC4206 gasket

Not as convenient as a drain plug but may be alternative solution.

That page also lists the spacer and retention clip part number for the CV referred to in an earlier post.

cheers MLD

Originally Posted by MLD

re draining the swivel sans a drain plug. I was doing this research exercise last year until i bought a house and all my money has disappeared.

In my reading I came across somewhere that you can release the metal retention gasket that holds the external swivel seal in place and the oil drains out.

That'll work, but the oil won't come out and be caught as cleanly as an actual drain hole.

Drill, tap, fit bolt with copper/aluminium washer. Done.

Mools,
I envisage you will do what you want to do anyways SOOOOO just to encourage a little

For trailers with proper bearings and hubs I have run a system as you suggest.
Good rear seals, grease and oil combo then a flange with fill hole. Spin it to the up position to fill, then spin hub to down position to drain.
It works, you can can get the hub compartment half filled with oil - all is well with the world
To drain most comes out but to properly clean your gonna need to yank the hubs off (no bother really)

To be frank though I would just run her straight through no seals but RTC3511 and proper flanges with sealant.

I have waded through wet season mud for way to long and never had ingress of any significance

when it comes time to drain and fill pull the diff plug, fill her up and the little remaining residue is just that - residue. Once every couple of years pull the hubs/swivels and clean her up - dont think you will find any problems?

Steve

Hi Mools.
Re the seal, firstly I hooked the seal spring out, then used a sharpened screwdriver and worked my way around the lip. It does not have to be that neat so long as the oil can migrate. I couldn't bring myself to trashing a new seal, so spent a little time cutting the old one out neatly!!

As for the roller bearings.. no they prob won't be that worn, but my local LR mechanic/parts supplier Brendan at British 4x4 rightly said to me that if you are replacing the CV's then change the needle rollers.. Good practise I guess.

Spacers... I only brought this point up as I got caught out. If your vehicle is Td5 or newer (don't quote me on this tho as I might be wrong) you will lave the later shafts which have the smaller 32 spline (I think) at the CV end so the spacer and snap ring in your current CV will be too small to fit over the new shaft.... If you are running the older 110 axle then you will have the older AEU 2522 CV which if original is pretty strong and will have the correct sized spacer so no panic (and IMO no need to upgrade the CV).

If you are using Ashcroft shafts as well as CV's does this mean you are using the old Land Rover 'End Caps' with the pop on rubber cover? These leak if you convert to oil in the bearings and need upgrading... HTE caps with oil proof covers can be bought separately... Don't forget to drill a small hole in the stub axle between where the two bearings sit as this helps oil migrate to the rear/inner hub bearing without having to work through the outer bearing first...

Re drilling holes in the flange caps.... The ones in the series caps were never looked at IMO, the oil will get there! It has too!! I did all the work on the front of mine, filled the swivels, drove to work and back a few times, then re checked them and topped them up the night before we drove to the Vic High Country from Adelaide... 2500km later and we got home this avo. If the oil had not got here I'd have found out somewhere the far side of Murray Bridge on the trip out I guess!!

Re the lack of swivel drain holes... I hear ya!! WTF is that all about?? Perhaps the guy who used to drill the drain holes and fit a plug got bored and went to work for Tata!!!