Oil colour after service?

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Originally Posted by Tank

In 2003 I bought (new) a Ford BA GT, this engine came from the factory with Castrol edge(?) 0W-40, I was using almost a litre of oil/5K.
At 15K with no improvement in oil consumption, Ford swapped out my engine for a brand new engine (same engine #, old engine crushed)and used Penrite 20w-40 for 5K and I drove it like I stole it, after 5K and not using oil like before went back to Castrol edge, no more oil problems.
Perkins also states under NO circumstances to use Synthetic engine oil in their 6354T line of engines.
Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank (whatever) and suspend soot particles that bypass piston rings and and deposits on cylinder walls.
Diesels when Idling or at low revs (pressures) do not expand the compression ring effectively, allowing soot to by-pass.
If this soot is not washed off the cylinder walls and suspended in the oil till it reaches the oil filter then the engine will fail early, now oil filters only take out the rocks and boulders, very fine particulate matter stays suspended in the oil making it turn black.
So if a diesel engine oil comes out clean there is a problem.
Modern oils are strong enough to be changed at 10K no worries, back in the 80's I was doing 10K oil changes on my Mack, I changed over to Marina M (Shell) to try to extend oil changes to 15K. As my Mack had a 60L sump, 3 oil Filters, 2 fuel Filters, 1 water filter and I was clocking over 5K/week it got to be an expensive exercise.
This New oil leaked out of every orifice and then some, the engine rattled and I used 20L of oil from syd. to adel. and back, this oil also came out clean.
I complained to Shell and they sent me a 44 of Rimula X to shut me up.
So alarm bells ring if I see clean oil esp. in a diesel engine, IME., Regards Frank.

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I'm assuming you are just providing more info, as there is nothing to disagree with you.

*Rimula X was/is a good heavy diesel engine fleet oil, most old and new guys in the heavy diesel industry will agree and I used to use it on Franna Cranes etc.
*Perkins, Cummin, Komatsu, Volvo... all the heavy diesel engines as used in generators (and I guess trucks etc) generally recommend not to use full synthetic oils. Especially generators that were prone to being over spec'd for their use, as in using a 200Kva generator to run a small exploration camp 24/7.
*Some of these heavy diesel engines were the size of a small Japanese car and were of a very low tech design and quite a long way from a fragile high reving light common rail diesel engine as found in light vehicles.
*I've not really had anything to do with old american designed (what mid 70/80's at best?) engines such as used in Ford Falcons (except the age old Rover V8 which dates back to the mid 60's) but at a guess its the same level of tech. Maybe it was a poor build quality thing?

*Yes one of the functions of "Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank" so if we are talking light diesel engines, having an oil that has good flow characteristic on cold engine start is an important critical factor. Surely your not suggesting using a multi grade engine oil 20W50 in a light common rail diesel engine, because it simply will not offer cold starting protection nor will it offer as good high temperature protection due to their inherent lower VI rating which floats around 120 - 130. The multi grade engine oil 5W40 will have good flow characteristics when cold and will resist mechanical shear at hot engine temperature due to their very high VI rating of 150 and above.

But there is three topics of conversation in that.
*Oil consumption (most likely) due to the oil doing its job too well and offering no run in ability or bedding such as the case with a multi grade oil labeled "full synthetic". Hence why I recommend semi synthetics that fall into the "manufacturers specs" (as in not being too over the top protection for an engine that does little work).
*And an oils ability to offer good engine protection at both critical cold start, running and high temperature running.
*An oils resistance to breaking down due to such factors as mechanical shear.

This is compounded by the fact most light diesel engines in light vehicles are grossly over powered for the vehicle, as in the engine is doing very little work, stop start to the shops and back, sitting on just above idle rpm on the freeway. The average common rail turbo diesel in a light vehicle is producing round (or generally over) 400NM of torque, to propel a vehicle weighing 1.5 - 2.5 tons, thats not really a lot of work for a light diesel. Sooting, glazing, sludging is a common issue with light diesel engines.

Regards
Daz

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Originally Posted by DazzaTD5

T
Its also worth noting that engine sludge is caused by the engine oil breaking down (or rather the additives used in that oil) due to such factors as heat, impurity loading (there is a technical word for that somewhere) and mechanical shear. Once an oil has broken down, its ability to resist such factors as mechanical shear is greatly reduced, which then compounds the sludge issue. Heavy sludge is a sign that the oil running in an engine is not the correct specification, as in real world specifications, the oil is breaking down and not doing its intended job.



Regards
Daz

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Oxidation is what causes sludge. (is that word you were looking for ?)

As you say the oil has broken down, the oil molecules shear and combine with deposits, moisture etc and agglomerate.

Overheating, lack of decent additives, (cheap oil) low TBN, moisture or coolant contamination all contribute.

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Originally Posted by Tank

because it seems you are saying that if you follow the Land Rover engineers and oil manufacturers advice then you are shortening the working life of your Land Rover. regards Frank.

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Yes..... how could anyone believe otherwise?
Do you or anyone else honestly believe that Land Rover engineers (or rather the Corporation that controls "their" engineers) and oil manufacturers (good grielf, an honest oil company????) are somehow working to get the longest service life out of your Land Rover Defender???

Long service intervals, fluids for life, using thin 0 - 20 grade oils (for improved fuel consumption), coolants for life or 10 yearly, is to the benefit of the manufacturer (that large Corporation) as it meets better environmental standards due to less waste being produced for that model.

EGR blanking or delete.... why not follow the engineers and leave it all on there, surely they wouldnt have engineered something that would shorten the life of an engine?

To believe that somehow any large major Corporation has some warm fuzzy feeling towards the products they produce is an odd (wishful) thought.

If such a thing was the case, the Defender would have remained in production, there was only one reason it was stopped.... it wasnt cost effective to continue.

Regards
Daz

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

"R" Model Mack?.....Maxidyne/Thermodyne?
Regards, Pickles.

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R model Mack, 320 Coolpower, 12 speed O/D Mack box, 44,000lb Mack H/D diffs and axles camel back rear suspension, 3 leaf Parabolic front springs, Road Train Specs., great truck never let me down, top speed 115klm/h, see if I can find a pic, regards Frank.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...016/01/958.jpg

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Originally Posted by DazzaTD5

I'm assuming you are just providing more info, as there is nothing to disagree with you.

*Rimula X was/is a good heavy diesel engine fleet oil, most old and new guys in the heavy diesel industry will agree and I used to use it on Franna Cranes etc.
*Perkins, Cummin, Komatsu, Volvo... all the heavy diesel engines as used in generators (and I guess trucks etc) generally recommend not to use full synthetic oils. Especially generators that were prone to being over spec'd for their use, as in using a 200Kva generator to run a small exploration camp 24/7.
*Some of these heavy diesel engines were the size of a small Japanese car and were of a very low tech design and quite a long way from a fragile high reving light common rail diesel engine as found in light vehicles.
*I've not really had anything to do with old american designed (what mid 70/80's at best?) engines such as used in Ford Falcons (except the age old Rover V8 which dates back to the mid 60's) but at a guess its the same level of tech. Maybe it was a poor build quality thing?

*Yes one of the functions of "Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank" so if we are talking light diesel engines, having an oil that has good flow characteristic on cold engine start is an important critical factor. Surely your not suggesting using a multi grade engine oil 20W50 in a light common rail diesel engine, because it simply will not offer cold starting protection nor will it offer as good high temperature protection due to their inherent lower VI rating which floats around 120 - 130. The multi grade engine oil 5W40 will have good flow characteristics when cold and will resist mechanical shear at hot engine temperature due to their very high VI rating of 150 and above.

But there is three topics of conversation in that.
*Oil consumption (most likely) due to the oil doing its job too well and offering no run in ability or bedding such as the case with a multi grade oil labeled "full synthetic". Hence why I recommend semi synthetics that fall into the "manufacturers specs" (as in not being too over the top protection for an engine that does little work).
*And an oils ability to offer good engine protection at both critical cold start, running and high temperature running.
*An oils resistance to breaking down due to such factors as mechanical shear.

This is compounded by the fact most light diesel engines in light vehicles are grossly over powered for the vehicle, as in the engine is doing very little work, stop start to the shops and back, sitting on just above idle rpm on the freeway. The average common rail turbo diesel in a light vehicle is producing round (or generally over) 400NM of torque, to propel a vehicle weighing 1.5 - 2.5 tons, thats not really a lot of work for a light diesel. Sooting, glazing, sludging is a common issue with light diesel engines.

Regards
Daz

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The old BA GT engine referred to was a Quad OHC 5.4L V8 putting out a lazy 400HP, so was designed to use fast flowing thin oils, if you want old tech. look no further than Holden/chev pushrod OHV lumps.
Yes the post was for extra info, not disagreeing with you, Regards Frank.

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Originally Posted by MrLandy

However while in warranty surely we can really only go by LR specified oil: Castrol Professional 5W40.

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Well all the Jaguar Land Rover info I have gives the specifications (the Ford specs) the rest just says "recommends castrol" You are meeting the Ford specification for engine oils, so your warranty is not effected.

On a side note, outside of companies such as Westrac (CAT dealer in W.A) I've not seen anyone send oil off for testing when there is a warranty claim and even with testing it will only show whats in the oil and not what brand it is.

Another note is the gearbox oil used in the Getrag MT82 box, again meeting the Ford spec, the Castrol factory fill isnt available as a retail or trade product (there is similar) unless you buy the 1lt bottles through a Land Rover dealer parts dept, the service dept isnt going to buy the 1lt bottles, they will use similar. According to Ford in Australia, Ford dont even import their "Ford" branded fluid here, again.... they use..... similar....

Personally when I change to a particular brand or specification its not because I'm just looking for an alternative for the sake of it or even for cost. I'm looking for a product that is better suited for a particular application. Even though I'm running a small business there really is not much motivation to use one brand over another, the pricing difference between them all isnt all that great, your talking equal price or 1 or 2 dollars a litre cheaper. I used Castrol for many years for all drive line applications, castrol, nulon, shell for engines, then switched and added another brand to all that. Always have used ZF Lifeguard 6 for all the newer ZF boxes in D3s etc. I've now slowly moving over to Penrite as they have a range of products that meet the specifications I'm looking for.

Regards
Daz

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Originally Posted by DazzaTD5

The oil I use in bulk (everything that is NON DPF/DPD) Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 Semi Synthetic, it also meets the Ford 913 spec.

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Are you sure that semi-syn oil meets the spec for non-DPF TDCi 2.2 engines? (WSS-M2C913-B or C)

I couldn't find that was the case from the Penrite site.

The full-syn HPR5 is lists compliance with Ford:
M2C912-A/913-A/913-B/913-C/913-D

Just asking.... If the HPR Diesel (semi-syn) really meets that ford spec then i will be happy.

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Originally Posted by tact

Are you sure that semi-syn oil meets the spec for non-DPF TDCi 2.2 engines? (WSS-M2C913-B or C)

I couldn't find that was the case from the Penrite site.

The full-syn HPR5 is lists compliance with Ford:
M2C912-A/913-A/913-B/913-C/913-D

Just asking.... If the HPR Diesel (semi-syn) really meets that ford spec then i will be happy.

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Yes it is
HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 (Semi Syn.)

Ford M2C153-H/171-C/913-B/913-C
Keep in mind the 913B spec as required is quite an old Ford spec, C and D specs now, but not listed as required on a Defender TDCi.
Here is a list of Ford specs: Ford Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org

Regards
Daz

re warranty, any oil that is licensed by a manufacturer, and it will say so, as in 'Approved by Ford' and quote the specification number.

This costs the oil blender to submit it to the manufacturer to be tested, and they'll let you know that it's an approved fluid.

Some blenders will use weasel words like "meets xyz specification" and it very well may, but there's a world of difference when in warranty between 'approved' and 'meets the specification'

Penrite do this with lots of oils, as do all the big boys.
A lot of smaller independents, and some of the big independents don't.

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Originally Posted by rick130

re warranty, any oil that is licensed by a manufacturer, and it will say so, as in 'Approved by Ford' and quote the specification number.

This costs the oil blender to submit it to the manufacturer to be tested, and they'll let you know that it's an approved fluid.

Some blenders will use weasel words like "meets xyz specification" and it very well may, but there's a world of difference when in warranty between 'approved' and 'meets the specification'

Penrite do this with lots of oils, as do all the big boys.
A lot of smaller independents, and some of the big independents don't.

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*Good point with reference to "oil blenders" .... as there are very few "oil companies" that actually refine crude oil.
*Funny enough one of the reasons I started to move away from Castrol products was the lack of available technical info. I've not actually seen a Castrol engine oil with the words "Approved by (Ford or Land Rover)" but only such marketing phrases as "selected by" "partnered with" "recommended by" "chosen" "global partner" ..... non of it very technical.

A bit off topic but interesting non the less...
Three things in life you can be sure of.... Death, Taxes, Oil Companies maximising profits. All oil companies do lots of clever, sneaky, dishonest, misleading technical marketing.

4 great dvds to watch:
*A Crude Awakening.
*CRUDE.
*An inconvenient truth.
*Who killed the electric car.

Regards
Daz