Defenders on "Car Sales."

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Originally Posted by Zeros

Yes I think most would agree Ozscott. Most would see replacement due to imminent failure of a critical part of the engine as unreliability.

Many Defender owners are used to doing major 'maintenance', but most people would not classify an engine-out bearing replacement as DIY.

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It's not an engine out job and takes less time than adjusting the valve clearances on the latest Mitsubishi diesels (for example). Head gasket on a 300Tdi takes less time...

But see it how you want to, it's just my opinion, although I had to laugh at maintenance being described as oil changes...

On the way to 300k kms in a modern diesel you'd be;

Replacing injectors
Coolant changes and radiator maintenance
Fuel filters x lots
Valve clearances in some cases (big job)
etc
etc

And no, Defenders are not safe cars. Not by today's standards, not by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Zeros

Yes I think most would agree Ozscott. Most would see replacement due to imminent failure of a critical part of the engine as unreliability.

Many Defender owners are used to doing major 'maintenance', but most people would not classify an engine-out bearing replacement as DIY.

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But you still get into an aeroplane with your family, even though they are so unreliable (by your definition) that the engines are subject to a complete teardown and rebuild every X number of hours, whether they "need" it or not. It's called maintenance.
Like top fuel drag racing, every so many runs, you replace the conrods. If their MTBF is 10 runs, replacing them at 8 is good sense.

All good points...so reliability is about maintenance, but also about perceptions as to what is standard maintenance and what is failure.

I didn't think I should need a new clutch at only 70,000 km (no towing) but because my rear main seal 'failed' and was replaced twice! The second time it was deemed a new clutch was also needed as clutch springs had 'failed' and the clutch is seen as a consumable so no warranty on that part.

Many would see all of the above as another string of failures in a low km Land Rover. As I've owned Defenders for a long time, I don't, but perhaps it's just what I'm used to?.

Enjoying the discussion. Cheers guys.

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Originally Posted by ozscott

Haha. I love Land Rovers but these last few posts are showing why some other makes owners take the **** out of LR owners. I mean really a rebuild using new main bearings, head gaskets etc is hardly maintenance. Maintainence is an oil change. Replacement due to imminent failure of a critical part of an engine is somewhat different. Ned Kelly's / Grandad's axe analogy is coming to mind. It's a bit hard to keep a straight face and say it's so reliable I have done 300k with just maintenance...

Cheers

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Hardly.

My comments were made from experience owning a TDI and rolling it past half a million km

Main bearing shells on a TDI are sacrificial, eventually they are due to be replaced. Most people dont own them long enough to get there. On a TDI the procees is almost as easy as popping off the sump and rotating some new ones in place of old. The shells are cheap.

Head gaskets are consumable, you replace them when they go. Easy for DIY so piece of **** for any mechanic. Gasket is cheap and they seem to be weaker around the 250k mark so you could change it as you would a timing belt. Or you could wait for it pop.

My point was that on some engines the required maintanence at high mileage is reasonable and on others it is not.

Some people own a new motor for 5 years and sell on at under 200k km. If the engine does not stray from its service schedule during that time then they would consider it reliable.

We are talking about the second hand market for defenders where km can be HIGH. Based on my experience I would still buy a 300-400k TDI engine and be confident that it has another cheap and cheerful 200k left in it. Would I be as confident with a 400k TDV6/puma engine? Less is known so not so sure.

To add something else to the mix when considering prices. The older defenders have less restrictions when it comes to engine conversions. I think the older ones will be highly sought after when the market sees the potential in rebuild/restore.

I'm just about to do a little spot of maintenance on my D2 at 330k. Just need to pop inside the transfer case and replace all.the bearings before catastrophic failure...at least then I can say it's all original and only requires maintenance. Meanwhile my mate with the untouched Toyota transfer case in the 75 series with same miles and zero noise etc is probably thinking wow what a gr8 vehicle...only needs maintenance. Got them fooled.

Just keep up that maintenance and you will.never need a whole new anything. So if rings need changing because they are colapsing that would be maintenance too? When I replaced the head gaskets on my D2 4.6 that was maintenance...if I replace.them every 100k they will never blow.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by manic

Hardly.

My comments were made from experience owning a TDI and rolling it past half a million km

Main bearing shells on a TDI are sacrificial, eventually they are due to be replaced. Most people dont own them long enough to get there. On a TDI the procees is almost as easy as popping off the sump and rotating some new ones in place of old. The shells are cheap.

Head gaskets are consumable, you replace them when they go. Easy for DIY so piece of **** for any mechanic. Gasket is cheap and they seem to be weaker around the 250k mark so you could change it as you would a timing belt. Or you could wait for it pop.

My point was that on some engines the required maintanence at high mileage is reasonable and on others it is not.

Some people own a new motor for 5 years and sell on at under 200k km. If the engine does not stray from its service schedule during that time then they would consider it reliable.

We are talking about the second hand market for defenders where km can be HIGH. Based on my experience I would still buy a 300-400k TDI engine and be confident that it has another cheap and cheerful 200k left in it. Would I be as confident with a 400k TDV6/puma engine? Less is known so not so sure.

To add something else to the mix when considering prices. The older defenders have less restrictions when it comes to engine conversions. I think the older ones will be highly sought after when the market sees the potential in rebuild/restore.

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In 2 years time the first of the 300tdis will comply with the North American DOT 25 year rule. Watch the prices of original chassis/engine examples (even those with their main bearings replaced!) go north then. This will bump the prices of the dung heaps (98 per cent of all 300tdis by now) as the importers will be looking to rebuild, but only those that are mostly original (chassis/drivetrain). Defender prices in the US are going up and up.

You can now pay US$1,500.00 a day to drive a vintage Defender!

I'm sending invoices to my mates for the times they've spent out on the tracks in mine.

http://media.landrover.com/en-us/new...enter-heritage

Someone needs to tell this bloke to go get his head read 😂😂 my favorite part is the 'price is firm' bit. Lol good luck mate
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/11613...utm_source=sms

It looks like an immaculate Defender, low kms, leather, etc ...it's actually not far off an equivalent price to other large HD 4x4 Wagons on the market with equivalent kms eg, Tojo 76, G Wagen. ...if he's not in a hurry, prices for immaculate Defenders are probably going to rise.

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Originally Posted by Jake93

Someone needs to tell this bloke to go get his head read 😂😂 my favorite part is the 'price is firm' bit. Lol good luck mate
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/11613...utm_source=sms

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Interesting.... as the years go on these low mileage Defenders will start having some problems I reckon from not being driven.... Seals drying up and things starting to leak, etc.

Will the price continue to rise then? Will depend on the buyer/s.....

If the new Deefers are any good, the "old" ones will drop in price, I reckon. Then all the yuppies that bought them as an "investment" will start off-loading theirs, and they'll drop even more! Then I might be able to afford one!