Thread: Puma starter removal - 2.4

Quick check-
The starter motor has a 500A Mega Fuse built into the factory Positive (red) connection block on the battery terminals. Check it's not blown. The main fuse block connects to the battery before this fuse so it's possible to have dash lights, and many other functions (I presume!) with this fuse blown.

As for replacement, never done it. They are usually just a case of disconnecting battery, a harness and a cable connector on the back, and a couple of bolts.
For the puma, it's on the Rear LHS of the engine block. It has 2 bolts securing it to the block. All other accounts that I've read of it is that it's fairly well sealed for water ingress, so a complete failure to chooch should be looked at with the entire picture in mind.
The starter solenoid / starter relay also come into play, being the low current side of the operation, so as always, things like alarm sstems, and that specific circuit will influence its operation.

FSM troubleshooting guide for the starter is below:

OK, did a bit more checking before I lost daylight.

The battery seems fine - when the RACV first attended, they ran one of their big test meters over it and reported it as having a clean bill of health - and, it is barely 12 months old. I can also measure good voltage (12.5V, car not running) at the high-ampage +ve feed to the starter. So, the mega fuse should be OK but I will check.

I then ran a test lead to the solenoid +ve feed (quite a challenge in its own right - that starter is buried...). It shows 0V without turning the key to "crank" (as you'd expect) and then about 10V when turned to "crank" - low, I think? So, that makes me think that:

1. The solenoid and/or starter is fried and shorting somewhere, or
2. the starter relay (under the seat, see snip from manual) is not delivering proper voltage - faulty.

Relay diagram.jpg

The thing I didn't mention earlier is that I had a few occasions in the last couple of weeks where when turning the key, there was a slight pause before the engine cranked. So something was failing gradually.

And, while I was digging around, I saw where the main bolts are on the starter. The bottom one doesn't look too bad, but the top one's going to be a pig (presuming I go the route of starter removal). Also, last time I did a starter, the bolts went along the axis of the starter (ok, it was a while ago - '73 Jaguar XJ6, and a P76 V8...) - these bolts go across the axis of the starter. Not what I was expecting, but it is what it is...

So, my guess is still that it's in the starter itself, but, as always, would welcome thoughts from all!

Will continue this as I keep exploring.

I have seen several instances of failing ignition switches that can cause a pause and eventual fsilure yo crank situation. ..

Originally Posted by justinc

I have seen several instances of failing ignition switches that can cause a pause and eventual fsilure yo crank situation. ..

Hmmm ok... but wouldn't that mean I'd get no voltage when turning to crank, because the relay wouldn't be triggered? Or is this another one of these Defender relays that's not in the greatest place in the circuit (like the headlights)?

Ignition switch is on the key barrel
Starter relay is in the battery junction box (under driver's seat).
Starter solenoid is part of the starter motor assembly.

BJB Fusible link 1 (60A) feeds the IGN switch. When the key is turned, the white/red wire in the starter relay is energised to activate the coil. This should only have 12V power when key is set to crank. This signal continues out of the relay to the ECM via the orange/black wire. So this circuit pulls in the starter relay switch.
Fusble link F3 (30A) in the BJB powers the Brown/Grey wire which is a thick wire on the starter relay. This should always have 12V. On the other hand, the high current output of the starter relay (Brown, red trace) should only see 12V when relay is energised. This brown/red wire has a connector when it changes to a Brown/Green wire... which eventually connects to the starter motor on the smallest of the 3 wires.


So if I were you, I'd have a crack at the following steps:
1) Take off drivers seat cushion and access the Battery junction box. Flick key to crank, and listen for the activation of the starter relay (you can also feel them activate if you put a finger on it while doing so). If Good, go to step 5. If not, go to step 2
1a) Swap out starter relay for another suitable relay in the junction box (if available). You might be able to rule out the relay as the problem before going balls-deep in the wiring.

2) Check for 12V at fusbile link 1- this goes to the ign barrel. If OK, also check for 12V at the Brown/white wire on the back of the ign barrel (and while you are at it, check that all connections are secure. As JC says, these switches can and do fail.

3)Turn key to crank, you should see 12V on the White/red wire coming out of the ignition barrel. If this is OK, then the switch is operating correctly, if it is getting and losing power (while key is on 'crank'), then the switch might be flakey. Probably worth looking at a replacement switch if this is the case.

4) Check all other fusible links in your BJB that they are not blown- specificially fusible links 1 and 3, plus the big 500A job on the battery. You should check for 12V at fusible link 3 (the 30A one). Should read 12V. This is the output circuit of the starter relay.

5) If your starter relay is clicking, then check for 12V while cranking on the brown/red wire coming out of the starter relay.

6) You can also check the brown/red wire from step 5 for continuity with (or voltage at) the small brown/green wire on the starter motor itself. Should have cuntinuity... having power upstream, but not at the starter motor while cranking might indicate a break or short in the wiring.

6) As with anything electrical, lok for the basic things first... broken connectors, loose wires flapping in the breeze, obvious damage...

7) If the on-car electrics check out as OK, then if you can get the starter motor to an auto sparky, they can easily bench test the motor. I haven't been able to find any test procedure for the starter motor, but usually checking resistance thru the windings might be a good indication of whether the guts of it are burnt out.

As JC mentioned earlier, the ignition switch can stick and cause the unit to run on and hence fail. Just finished a big shift at work, but I do remember a Landrover Service bulletin somewhere.

Ah ha found it.


Models
LD - Defender
Title Mulitiple Star
Starter Motor Failure
Last Modified 21-JAN-2009 17:43
Category Electrical
Symptom 203000 Basic Electrical
Content
Issue:
Repeat failures on Defender starter motors.
Cause:
The ignition switch can jam causing starter
motor failure due to over running.
Action:
If the starter motor has failed check
operation of ignition switch;
a) Is the switch jammed through any of its
positions?
b) Does the switch fully return to position 2
once cranked and the inhibit operates, not
allowing re-crank from position 2?
c) Does the starter
motor continue to
engage once cranked and key released?
If the answer to any of the above is YES
please change ignition barrel as well as
starter motor as potentially the starter motor
will fail again.
Vehicles post vin. 775971 have been
modified and should not demonstate this
concern.

Also below is a link to the Electrical wiring diagrams for the 2.4, hope it helps. To tired to think straight at the moment.
Microsoft services

Yes the sons Puma had a running on starter,it was fixed under warranty.

But what they didn't do,during the job, was put the battery terminals on tightly,so then he had similar issues to the OP.

Something else(battery terminals), need to be checked.

Also on occasions,corrosion under the terminals will cause a similar problem.

All will seem fine,until the battery is loaded,when the starter is engaged,then the voltage will drop way down at the starter terminals.

Had this exact problem a few months ago. Ended up it was the ignition switch and by the sounds its a fairly common problem. Removed the starter (what a bastartd of a job) and cleaned and serviced the starter. All was ok. Had noticed for some time the ignition switch was sticking on at times and was not all that free turning. Could actually start my puma by turning on the ignition and then activating the starter solenoid. So for a few weeks I had a twin wire running from the starter up to the guard so when I needed to start it I had to turn the ignition on and get out and touch the 2 wires to activate the started and it started perfectly. Found the problem was the ignition switch so I ordered and installed a new one. Much better now not having to get out to start it. Lol