Thread: So the PUMA goes back to the garage again tomorrow

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Where are they failing? In Australia?

I'm just trying to establish if it's a common problem with all the manufacturers due to fuel in Australia. From what I know manufacturers will usually do durability testing before they bring a type in, particularly where it has certain requirements. IE High sulphur in Aus diesel was always cited as the reason why we got common rail diesels here later than other countries.

If all the manufacturers are having problems then this issue is not likely to be solved any time soon. It's just that this is news to me as I know a few people with diesel golfs and BMW's and I haven't heard anything about this problem.

I noted that the prado is a direct injection diesel (like the TD5), but the landcruiser is a "common rail" diesel. Has anyone heard about landcruisers having this problem? I can't imagine that landcruisers get special filtered fuel on mine sites.

I'm sorry if I'm being tedious but I like to start at the start and work through it. If all manufacturers are having this problem then maybe LR have misjudged it. In that case it's plausible that there won't be a solution from LR.

If it's just LR, and not even transit diesels then clearly it's particular to the defender which gives me hope they will sort it.

Dullbird, the original poster of this thread, has still not actually received a diagnosis of the problem from Land Rover - they try this, they try that - it hasn't been fixed. Some other owners are having the issue. But many are not (me, for example).

But the problem in answering your question is this, and I repeat - we still don't know the exact issue. For this reason, it is impossible to state why it is or isn't happening in other vehicles makes - all we have is an effect in some vehicles.

The reports of faliure in other brands of vehicles is from overseas.
I am not familiar with the filtration system on the Puma. The only what I can say is that after considerable research overseas regarding the filtration for the common rail diesel system a filter of 2 microns is required before the pump/injectors
Going by my experience with John Deere, Ford, Class and Deutz circa 1977/1980 I only can say to you that manufacturers of machinery and vehilces are very relactant to admit faults on their design or that their system can be improved.
If I have a Puma I would fit dual filtration both with water traps.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

They are.The D4D in both 4 and 8 cylinders,the DiD are all knocking.It's not an LR thing.Hot fuel-air into a cold block means uneven burn,it's the stop-start burn that cause the knock.All common rail engines do it but only on cold start up. Pat

I have a few relatives who work in the Diesel Industry - specifically they are diesel engineers. I've been chatting to them recently because my brand new PUMA's fuel system has been destroyed by water.. Long story...

Their most common source of work at the moment is rebuidling out of warranty CRD's. Toyota tend to fix any issues under warranty at the moment - so that's why you hear little about it. Apparently a fuel issue on those new V8 diesels will empty your wallet of up to $40,000!!!!!! The car's only worth $60k... So I can imagine there will be lots of publicity once Toyota start expiring warranties.

Quite often one bad tank of diesel - or if you are unlucky enough to mis fuel with a bit of petrol, will destroy the high pressure pump. If you drive it till it dies then you will destroy the injectors and the rail. Stop as soon as any surging or rough running issues occur on a CRD, or any warning lights. Many small cheap cars with CRD, are written off when this happens as it's simply not worth fixing them.

I've learnt many things in the last few weeks due to the huge bill I face, Shell Service stations are not Shell. Shell has a great liability policy for water in fuel - but only for the COLES EXPRESS shell servos. All other shell servos are independant and you are screwed if you get bad fuel from them. You need to improve the filtering on a PUMA - the factory filter is worthless. Get RACV insurance - they will cover you in this situation.

The transit has an additional and large sedimenter and filter - and a warning light for water.

A small amount of water through a piezo CRD injector is enough to damage it - and cause a change in the spray pattern..... It may still run, but might cause all sorts of issues in the long run. Water in the rail can cause issues with the fuel pressure regulator and cause it to peg open or leak - this is the cause of the power loss. Once it's over pressured due to water in the rail - the valve seat on the regulator is damaged - and it will never by right after that.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

Most VW diesels (up until the very latest Golf VI & Tiguan) use the same unit injector technology as the Td5. Off the top of my head most heavy duty truck engines also use unit injectors, although MAN are the only ones I know that use common rail in a heavy truck (12.4 L, 353 kW/480 hp Euro 4)

Rob W

Originally Posted by Scallops

Dullbird, the original poster of this thread, has still not actually received a diagnosis of the problem from Land Rover - they try this, they try that - it hasn't been fixed. Some other owners are having the issue. But many are not (me, for example).

But the problem in answering your question is this, and I repeat - we still don't know the exact issue. For this reason, it is impossible to state why it is or isn't happening in other vehicles makes - all we have is an effect in some vehicles.

I'll confess... I thought I was posting in the puma water thread. There are so many puma problem threads I'm getting confused

Sorry!

I agree DB's problem is certainly different to the water issues. However I see the water issues as a big one!

I'm still lost on the water bit,I have had my Tdi for 12 years,have driven it in every state and territory including around tassie and have only once got water in my fuel,from a servo 30mins from home!!!.The amount of times I've fueled it from jerry cans or drums or got fuel from strange places I couldn't count so unless it all goes through the motor no worries or I'm just lucky I don't know.I've just finished 7 years of being a mobile plant fitter and I never had water troubles in countless machines,all diesel that I've looked after.It seems to me to be an excuse for stopping customers questions. Pat

Aren't we getting off-topic here? I thought we had come to some sort of understanding that the problem was cold weather related, maybe fuel delivery related but not necessarily related to the fuel itself. Over the past 18 months I have pulled a fair bit of water out of my filter canister, but surely if fuel was the source of our post-start-up-rattle issues, it would happen all the time? Not just when it's particularly cold.

On the issue of water/muck in fuel. Here is a photo showing the amount of water I pulled out of the filter/separator late last year after a particularly wet drive interstate...


That is, in my opinion, a hell of a lot of water... but I am pretty sure none of it is as a result of fuel contamination. My vehicle has never been filled at a remote, outback service station. All fills have been from major chains on highways or in the city - I figure this greatly reduces my risks of bad fuel.

Following this trip I showed this photo to my dealer and pressured them into relocating the fuel tank breather in accordance with the recommendation that was going around. In March this year they did so and it is now clipped up behind the rear wheel arch guard (not in front of it as before). Interestingly the vehicle went through the entire wet summer with the fuel breather still in it's original place but without any post start-up rattles.

I just checked the fuel filter/separator for the first time since the breather was relocated (about three and a half months ago now) and got hardly any water - A small amount of sediment but very little water (not even worth a photo). We have had some spectacularly wet weather here in Brisbane this year so to find this big a difference in the amount of water coming out the filter drain certainly proves to me the fault with the original breather location (unless it is all going through to the engine now ).

Sure, some people may be experiencing similar types of engine behaviour as the result of bad fuel, water being drawn through the system or whatever, but I don't think my problem is related to this. It only occurs in cold weather, and only briefly after start up, and so far only once been bad enough to cause an engine warning light.

I hope this extra info is of some help.