Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by Tins

He's presenting accurate findings as pertain to him. But don't let that get in the way of defending your choices.

In the conclusion vid the Taycan cost more than double the Beemer for the journey, took more than six hours longer, and didn't actually finish.

See that's really deceptive. You know it's not right but you defend it. That's what FUD is at it's core.

You can't prove my example of what conditions are like here is wrong, because it's not wrong. EV's are massively cheaper to fuel in Australia. Even if you can't charge at home.

As I sit here.. our tesla has done 6500k. It's cost $350 in electricity this far (all at home). I reckon that's less than a third of what our 1.4l golf was costing us. Insanity.

Originally Posted by Arapiles

First, "Japs" is a racist term and I'm surprised that you think that it's OK to use.

Second, I don't know if your comment was aimed at me because of my post about the Tokyo Mobility Show, but let me set you straight on a few things:

1. I've lived in and out of Japan for the last 34 years - at one point I'd spent more of my adult life in Japan than Australia;

2. I speak Japanese and went to Uni here;

3. I was an adviser to several large Japanese car-companies in my area of professional expertise, and also to several European makers operating in Japan - so I know the market and the companies in a way that I suspect few non-Japanese would: certainly not the Australian car journalists who are largely clueless;

4. I've been to multiple Tokyo Motor Shows, beginning in 1991 - I'm in Japan at present, primarily to go to the Motor Show, which I went to on Monday. I'll probably go again tomorrow.

So, in my honest opinion - the Japanese car companies are ****ed. Unlike other years there was nothing of particular interest on any of their stands. There was nothing that pointed to any thinking about the future. Three even had "sky cars", basically large drones, which will never be a thing and suggest that they had no other ideas. The most popular thing on the Honda stand wasn't even a car, it was a mocked-up fueselage of a Honda Jet - the queue to sit in that was up to 75 minutes. The foreign journalists get carted around on days that are closed to the public so have no idea what the Japanese public are interested in. From my observations, they were interested in the new GTR, the new MX-5 / RX-9 (looked like an RX to me, and nothing like an MX-5), the Honda/Sony collaboration and interestingly, the new Toyota Century SUV, which is Toyota's take on a Bentagya. Even more interestingly, I haven't even seen it mentioned in any foreign coverage of the show. And the Japanese public were really, really interested in the BYD stand - it was 6 people deep around every vehicle. And the presenters on the BYD stand I spoke to were multi-lingual when I don't think I spoke to a single person on any of the Japanese stands that could converse in English.

There were also some broader issues that point to systemic issues in Japan - prior to going to the show the TMS website said that you could buy tickets at the gate - which is what I've done every other time I've gone. It also said that the gates opened at 9.00am. When I got there it turned out that you couldn't buy tickets at the gate and I had go on-line on my phone and buy them - and then get a physical ticket from a 7-11 (cf, why couldn't I show them an electronic one or QR code, which is standard pretty much everywhere these days) which promptly closed when myself and about a hundred Japanese attendees tried to do so. And the gates didn't open at 9.00am, they opened at 10.00am. It was a complete ****ing shemozzle. There would've been 5,000 people lined up there at 10.00am.

I had dinner the following night with an older Japanese friend who's very connected and I basically told him the above and he just winced. He, and a lot of other Japanese, are very worried about Japan's direction at present and the fact that Toyota is so far behind in what's looking to be the future is of huge concern to them. It seems to me that it's a re-run of Japan's previous disastrous backings-of-the-wrong technology: for example, Betamax/Laserdisc/minidisc instead of VHS and their Japan-only phone tech vs GSM. The Japanese call it the Galapagos syndrome. So, if Europe turns all electric, and the EU comes to terms with the Chinese EV manufacturers, who are vastly more cost-competitive than any of the Japanese makers, what exactly will Toyota be selling? Betamax cars?

Thanks for the objective take. Remember this thread is actually "People who hate EV's yelling at people".

I really do think any objective look at the situation.. the Japanese car industry has really really missed the boat on this. I honestly think they have only recently realised this too.

Their dedicated EV platforms aren't due to really come on line until later this decade. So they've got to survive the onslaught of the Chinese until then. Somehow they've got to keep making enough money to develop new platforms, new supply chains, new factories ETC. And what's more - when they do "pivot' their cars are going to have to be competitive not with cars we have now, but where the competition is then. And they have to be able to make them profitably.

Yes they have a lot of assets, but much of that is in producing things that are declining in demand. So they also have to feed their debt in the meantime.

I've no doubt that the smaller Japanese manufacturers will be subsumed into other organisations, and it's likely the car industry will need government support.

So in the meantime - all they have got is to spray FUD to try and buy time.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Thanks for the objective take. Remember this thread is actually "People who hate EV's yelling at people".

I really do think any objective look at the situation.. the Japanese car industry has really really missed the boat on this. I honestly think they have only recently realised this too.

Their dedicated EV platforms aren't due to really come on line until later this decade. So they've got to survive the onslaught of the Chinese until then. Somehow they've got to keep making enough money to develop new platforms, new supply chains, new factories ETC. And what's more - when they do "pivot' their cars are going to have to be competitive not with cars we have now, but where the competition is then. And they have to be able to make them profitably.

Yes they have a lot of assets, but much of that is in producing things that are declining in demand. So they also have to feed their debt in the meantime.

I've no doubt that the smaller Japanese manufacturers will be subsumed into other organisations, and it's likely the car industry will need government support.

So in the meantime - all they have got is to spray FUD to try and buy time.

Seems you’re the only one yelling. I’ve said time and again I don’t hate EV’s yet you tar me with the same brush - EV hater - just because I disagree they are viable for the majority.

More like EV lovers yelling at the world.

EV owners. The new Vegan

FUD - an EV owners equivalent of “Boomer”

Originally Posted by Saitch

I'm not gainsaying anything here, Arapiles, but it's ironic that 'Betamax' v 'VHS' is mentioned. 'Beta' was far superior to 'VHS' and it was only the marketing (and the good old US of A) that made VHS more popular.

Oh, absolutely, and you'd be astonished by how advanced my Japanese phones were - in 2001 I had a 3G(+) phone with an e-SIM, these little embedded programmes which they called "Applis" but which are now called "Apps", a virtual assistant (which true to form, was simply annoying), high resolution camera and video, and I remember my TMT colleagues in Europe being gobsmacked by it. But it was using the Japanese standard, which only worked in Japan and so they were never sold overseas.

Originally Posted by Saitch

Double Hmmm.
What Is the Difference Between Betamax and VHS?
– Kodak Digitizing.

That link is light on facts, and I don't see how a smaller tape could hold longer recordings and Betamax vs. VHS Tapes: What is the Difference? (foreverstudios.com) seems to agree, also I'd heard the US porn industry preferred VHS which killed Betamax, and I still like to think that as VHS was cheaper. Also, I think by the time "Titanic" came out people were using DVD's. Actually, not much in it, released on VHS 1 Sept 1998 and on DVD 31 Aug 1999. There was also a Betamax to VHS adaptor but not the other way around due to the size difference, same with NATO vs Russian 7.62 ammo.

Now to get this thread back on track, EV's were available in the days of VHS that is mid 90's in California mostly....Who Killed the Electric Car? (2006) - IMDb

Originally Posted by Tins

This is long, and it's part two. I have skimmed sections. The parts I have watched contain no expletives. If I have missed one I apologise.
I find it interesting due to the problems encountered in the UK, where there is a far greater coverage of charging stations than here.

So they have established that an expensive EV that sells in small numbers is not the best choice for a trip the length of the UK.

So what! Perhaps there are a handful of people who regularly do a 900 mile trip in the UK who will find their test useful.

For the millions of people in the UK who will never do that, it is hardly relevant.

What are the chances of that pair doing a much more useful comparison involving the sort of trips that the vast majority of people do?

Are they likely to do a similar distance but involving traffic lights, roundabouts and intersections, and doing just a dozen or two miles each day?

Many more people would benefit from such a comparison.

Otherwise their conclusion is no more helpful than proving that a Suzuki Swift can't fit seven passengers while towing a 3,500 kg boat or that a Kenworth prime mover won't fit in the average suburban garage.

Why are so many people contriving tests that simple establish that EVs are not great for some of the things that a small number of people need to do?

Originally Posted by vnx205

So they have established that an expensive EV that sells in small numbers is not the best choice for a trip the length of the UK.

So what! Perhaps there are a handful of people who regularly do a 900 mile trip in the UK who will find their test useful.

For the millions of people in the UK who will never do that, it is hardly relevant.

What are the chances of that pair doing a much more useful comparison involving the sort of trips that the vast majority of people do?

Are they likely to do a similar distance but involving traffic lights, roundabouts and intersections, and doing just a dozen or two miles each day?

Many more people would benefit from such a comparison.

Otherwise their conclusion is no more helpful than proving that a Suzuki Swift can't fit seven passengers while towing a 3,500 kg boat or that a Kenworth prime mover won't fit in the average suburban garage.

Why are so many people contriving tests that simple establish that EVs are not great for some of the things that a small number of people need to do?

That channel is all about a guy who hates EV's yelling at the world that they are rubbish. The occupants of this thread who also hate EV's frantically repost it, while spraying as much FUD as possible.

I've already explained the reality of charging locally (QLD) but we choose not to deal with reality here. No apology, no response. Whatever. I hope no one who actually wants to reasonably understand EV's listens here!