EV general discussion

Not sure I would call it a myth, more of a misunderstanding on the meaning.

The term Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) first came into accepted usage in 1990 when the California Air Resources Board defined a Zero Emissions Vehicle as one which produces zero emissions when driven to meet tailpipe standards for air quality, and as part of these regulations they defined battery electric vehicles as being zero emission vehicles.

Of course the issue is today it’s meaning when used in advertising implies more than just zero emissions at the tailpipe.

Interesting most government bodies today still refer to electric vehicles as being Zero Emissions Vehicles, it seems they just don’t like it when car manufacturers use the same term when advertising.

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Originally Posted by Homestar

Yay, let's all live in the city and make the crowding and pollution worse!!! [biggrin] Couldn't think of anything worse myself but each to their own. If we all have to face this inevitable future people speak of let's just hope they put a bus service in (Electric of course) to the millions of Australians that don't have one, let alone multiple public transport options. When I was younger I lived in a Country town that had one bus a day go to the biggest local town (1/2 hour away) and one back. It left at 7.30am and got back at 5.30pm - not ideal to do the shopping run. 40 years later that town has tripled in size and guess what - it still has the same bus service - once a day in and out. I'd imagine this story could be repeated countless times across Australia. Cities get all the money and the Country is left with bugger all - much less per person than any spending that happens in any Capital City. That bus by the way is a smoke belching 20 year old clapped out POS with some guy that's 5 years past retirement is driving until one or both die.

Sorry, short rant over but you see my point - what options do so many have apart from ICE? Not just those without driveways but those that live in Rural areas, don't have public transport, don't have much money - I know whole areas where if you see a car newer than 10 years old you think it's been stolen - we're leaving too many behind in this mad rush IMO.

As for zero emissions - the media is bad for perpetuating this myth - just google zero emission EV and see how many Muppets there are on Youtube sprouting this garbage.

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Everyone in living in the city might make crowding worse, but it's likely to result in less pollution. As in my example - if I lived in a remote area I'm quite confident my family would have to do a lot more driving than we do and would have a higher co2 footprint. But I digress.

Honestly.. this is the issue. People think EV's the end of the world. Which .... they are just cars with batteries instead of ICE. And as I've said over and over. Don't worry about people in the bush, or that have needs for cars that can't be filled by electric cars. Now is not the time. We've got 18 million vehicles on our road, and the manufacturers are sending us 100k EV's a year at the moment. Let's jot that down. 18,000,000/100000 = 180 years. :D Don't stress and let's just try to go for the low hanging fruit first. ICE cars are going to be around long time.

Fun fact for you BTW.. over two thirds of Australians live in capital cities.

So one of my neighbours.. they live 100m from me. He lines up five cars outside his house every day (They have two garages but both are full). Both parents and every kid has a car. The little one they just bought them a highlux to learn to drive on (bless them). Of their five cars, four of them are 4x4's with one Nissan hatchback. All of their cars look shiny and new. None of them show any evidence of ever being used off road. Personally I think their car requirements are all about life choices. I'm pretty sure that probably 4/5 of them could be EV's and even then the only 4x4 thing I've seen evidence of them doing is towing a trailer occasionally (which could probably be done with an EV!). Judging by the property they are living in - cost is not an EV adoption barrier for them. And that's without questioning why every house inhabitant needs a vehicle.

Another neighbour just a few metres away chose to send their kids to a school across town. For which there is no PT. So one of the parents is basically a school shuttle driver for multiple hours a day. Choices.. choices.

This is the kind of thing that I see everywhere in the city. People making life choices to drive. So if that's how they want to play it, let's help them to choose an EV next time. And let's just stop stressing that we're going to take anybody's ICE car off them at any point in the near future.

And to offset this picture, consider my son's situation. They have a household of Mum, Dad, four kids, 13-25. Four working, one looking for work. Town has virtually zero public transport, three of the workers are part time and often or largely work outside normal hours. Dad, working normal hours, has a 120km round trip commute. (Same applies for most medical appointments for anyone in the family, and some of the work by two of the others.)

The family cars are a diesel I30, a diesel seven seat Disco 2, a Nissan Micra, a small four door Toyota? and a small two door Toyota (can't think for sure what those two are).

While I have discussed with my son several times getting an EV, and it would make sense for his commute, there are two problems with this solution. Firstly, none of their cars cost more than $10,000, most well under. It will be years before you can buy a worthwhile EV for this sort of money. Secondly, he has now been allowed to work from home two days a week - this has reduced his commuting costs by more than the savings that would be made from an EV.

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

Interesting most government bodies today still refer to electric vehicles as being Zero Emissions Vehicles, it seems they just don’t like it when car manufacturers use the same term when advertising.

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There is no way the Govt or its agencies would have taken a stand unless there had been complaints.

Notwithstanding the origin of the term, current usage is obvious. Seems the punters don't like being lied to.

The car manufacturers are just required to ensure it is clear they are referring to zero emissions when driving.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6b5c11f73f.jpg

It’s only the ads which failed to make the qualifier that have been required to withdraw the ad, or could face action by the ACCC.

The legislative terminology still defines zero emissions vehicles as vehicles which emit no emissions when driving, and automakers just need to align with this.

An example of the sort of complaints that can be raised and upheld in favour of the car manufacturer:

https://adstandards.com.au/sites/def...ts/0343-21.pdf

Ford zero emission driving claim ‘not’ misleading

And an example where it was found to be misleading:

BMW pulled up by Advertising Standards Authority over EV 'zero emission' claims

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Everyone in living in the city might make crowding worse, but it's likely to result in less pollution. As in my example - if I lived in a remote area I'm quite confident my family would have to do a lot more driving than we do and would have a higher co2 footprint. But I digress.

Honestly.. this is the issue. People think EV's the end of the world. Which .... they are just cars with batteries instead of ICE. And as I've said over and over. Don't worry about people in the bush, or that have needs for cars that can't be filled by electric cars. Now is not the time. We've got 18 million vehicles on our road, and the manufacturers are sending us 100k EV's a year at the moment. Let's jot that down. 18,000,000/100000 = 180 years. :D Don't stress and let's just try to go for the low hanging fruit first. ICE cars are going to be around long time.

Fun fact for you BTW.. over two thirds of Australians live in capital cities.

So one of my neighbours.. they live 100m from me. He lines up five cars outside his house every day (They have two garages but both are full). Both parents and every kid has a car. The little one they just bought them a highlux to learn to drive on (bless them). Of their five cars, four of them are 4x4's with one Nissan hatchback. All of their cars look shiny and new. None of them show any evidence of ever being used off road. Personally I think their car requirements are all about life choices. I'm pretty sure that probably 4/5 of them could be EV's and even then the only 4x4 thing I've seen evidence of them doing is towing a trailer occasionally (which could probably be done with an EV!). Judging by the property they are living in - cost is not an EV adoption barrier for them. And that's without questioning why every house inhabitant needs a vehicle.

Another neighbour just a few metres away chose to send their kids to a school across town. For which there is no PT. So one of the parents is basically a school shuttle driver for multiple hours a day. Choices.. choices.

This is the kind of thing that I see everywhere in the city. People making life choices to drive. So if that's how they want to play it, let's help them to choose an EV next time. And let's just stop stressing that we're going to take anybody's ICE car off them at any point in the near future.

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Except if you are a bad'un/hoon & have it confiscated for the Crusher.


"we're leaving too many behind in this mad rush IMO".



And you can see them left by the roadside or Outback as one drives past. Heaps of rusting metal.

Ok Ok, I know what you meant.[smilebigeye]

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

And to offset this picture, consider my son's situation. They have a household of Mum, Dad, four kids, 13-25. Four working, one looking for work. Town has virtually zero public transport, three of the workers are part time and often or largely work outside normal hours. Dad, working normal hours, has a 120km round trip commute. (Same applies for most medical appointments for anyone in the family, and some of the work by two of the others.)

The family cars are a diesel I30, a diesel seven seat Disco 2, a Nissan Micra, a small four door Toyota? and a small two door Toyota (can't think for sure what those two are).

While I have discussed with my son several times getting an EV, and it would make sense for his commute, there are two problems with this solution. Firstly, none of their cars cost more than $10,000, most well under. It will be years before you can buy a worthwhile EV for this sort of money. Secondly, he has now been allowed to work from home two days a week - this has reduced his commuting costs by more than the savings that would be made from an EV.

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At last, a Real Life Story. Thanks John.[bigsmile1]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Everyone in living in the city might make crowding worse, but it's likely to result in less pollution. As in my example - if I lived in a remote area I'm quite confident my family would have to do a lot more driving than we do and would have a higher co2 footprint. But I digress.

Honestly.. this is the issue. People think EV's the end of the world. Which .... they are just cars with batteries instead of ICE. And as I've said over and over. Don't worry about people in the bush, or that have needs for cars that can't be filled by electric cars. Now is not the time. We've got 18 million vehicles on our road, and the manufacturers are sending us 100k EV's a year at the moment. Let's jot that down. 18,000,000/100000 = 180 years. :D Don't stress and let's just try to go for the low hanging fruit first. ICE cars are going to be around long time.

Fun fact for you BTW.. over two thirds of Australians live in capital cities.

So one of my neighbours.. they live 100m from me. He lines up five cars outside his house every day (They have two garages but both are full). Both parents and every kid has a car. The little one they just bought them a highlux to learn to drive on (bless them). Of their five cars, four of them are 4x4's with one Nissan hatchback. All of their cars look shiny and new. None of them show any evidence of ever being used off road. Personally I think their car requirements are all about life choices. I'm pretty sure that probably 4/5 of them could be EV's and even then the only 4x4 thing I've seen evidence of them doing is towing a trailer occasionally (which could probably be done with an EV!). Judging by the property they are living in - cost is not an EV adoption barrier for them. And that's without questioning why every house inhabitant needs a vehicle.

Another neighbour just a few metres away chose to send their kids to a school across town. For which there is no PT. So one of the parents is basically a school shuttle driver for multiple hours a day. Choices.. choices.

This is the kind of thing that I see everywhere in the city. People making life choices to drive. So if that's how they want to play it, let's help them to choose an EV next time. And let's just stop stressing that we're going to take anybody's ICE car off them at any point in the near future.

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No issues with anything you say here but that’s not the issue. The issue is that it seems every Gubment and almost every OEM is scrambling over each other trying to force them down our throat and love them which translates into crowds of Muppets all over the internet telling us the same thing. If those ****wits back off the whole situation would be much easier to accept. I don’t care who owns one but I do care about all the people (and there are lots of them) that tell me I should be driving one and that I’m out of touch, a Boomer, a Luddite or any amount of other slurs because I don’t want one.

They will absolutely work for a percentage of the population who will buy them, love them and make them work without issue but don’t tell the rest of - City Slickers or not, that they need to go buy one. Not you, I’m talking about the media, Gubment, car manufacturers etc.

It should be a choice that shouldn’t be criticised either way. As I’ve said countless times I’m not anti EV and I love all tech, but the physics of everyone owning one don’t add up and there’s still too many heads stuck in the sand to see this.

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Originally Posted by Homestar

No issues with anything you say here but that’s not the issue. The issue is that it seems every Gubment and almost every OEM is scrambling over each other trying to force them down our throat and love them which translates into crowds of Muppets all over the internet telling us the same thing. If those ****wits back off the whole situation would be much easier to accept. I don’t care who owns one but I do care about all the people (and there are lots of them) that tell me I should be driving one and that I’m out of touch, a Boomer, a Luddite or any amount of other slurs because I don’t want one.

They will absolutely work for a percentage of the population who will buy them, love them and make them work without issue but don’t tell the rest of - City Slickers or not, that they need to go buy one. Not you, I’m talking about the media, Gubment, car manufacturers etc.

It should be a choice that shouldn’t be criticised either way. As I’ve said countless times I’m not anti EV and I love all tech, but the physics of everyone owning one don’t add up and there’s still too many heads stuck in the sand to see this.

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I was in the middle of writing a long post when I read this. Says what I want to say just fine. Thanks, Gav.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homestar

No issues with anything you say here but that’s not the issue. The issue is that it seems every Gubment and almost every OEM is scrambling over each other trying to force them down our throat and love them which translates into crowds of Muppets all over the internet telling us the same thing. If those ****wits back off the whole situation would be much easier to accept. I don’t care who owns one but I do care about all the people (and there are lots of them) that tell me I should be driving one and that I’m out of touch, a Boomer, a Luddite or any amount of other slurs because I don’t want one.

They will absolutely work for a percentage of the population who will buy them, love them and make them work without issue but don’t tell the rest of - City Slickers or not, that they need to go buy one. Not you, I’m talking about the media, Gubment, car manufacturers etc.

It should be a choice that shouldn’t be criticised either way. As I’ve said countless times I’m not anti EV and I love all tech, but the physics of everyone owning one don’t add up and there’s still too many heads stuck in the sand to see this.

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I'm glad you're starting to understand my opinion on this. [bigsmile1]

We are a long way from forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to. As I've said over and over I understand that there is a very solid portion of Austrlians for whom an EV is at this point unsuitable - or for whom there would be some adjustment required to own one.

As I've stated two thirds of Australians live in major capital cities. What if 50% could own one?

The answer to that is WHO CARES! The supply of EV's is so small relative to our 18 million vehicles. Even if we bought 100% EV's this year it's going to take 18 years to replace all the vehicles. And that of course doesn't account for attrition etc.

So my position is - if an EV isn't right for you that's fine. If you don't like EV's because you just like burning stuff that's fine too! I genuinely don't care because it doesn't matter and why make people unhappy.

My position is - if you genuinely think you need a new car (best environmental outcome is probably to drive what you have) then you should have access to resources to help you make a decision based on facts and not FUD. If people can make an EV work for them then please do. Because every ICE car we put on our roads is a commitment to continue with that for the life of the vehicle.

This all comes down to behaviour change. We do need people to transition to EV if we're going to meet our climate targets. For the health and well being of our cities we need people to back off on SUV ownership too as it's not helping.

So the best way of doing this is to encourage people to make the right choices by making them the best choice if that makes sense. I think in years to come you'll find that people will choose EV's not on idealogical grounds - but simply because it's the most pragmatic choice.