Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

We have covered it pretty well. My big problem is them burning ... but mostly the life span. Have you ever owned any battery .... ever ... of any description that has been usable after the 5 -> 8 year mark? especially one deep cycled and rapidly charged... hmmm.....

The next issue is of course how will we even get EV's to this country if the globals shipping companies refuse to ship them as they keep sinking there ships when they torch off

See that's the thing. These are big batteries and they are just being "tickled". Our EV .. is LFP so it says in the app to charge to 100 every week. We don't always manage this but I try to do it once a month. For the most part when it gets down to 40 someone plugs it in and we charge it to 70. A few days later the same thing happens. So it doesn't even get one full cycle a week. It probably only does about 60% charging a week. At over two years old and with 25k on it, I reckon that it has done well less than 100 full cycles so far. Even if you said we did absolutely the worst treatment we could to the thing LFP in that use case is supposed to do 3500-4500 cycles. If you are real nice to them they can do 12000 to 19000 cycles.

Contrast this with my phone which is not two years old (It's not LFP but the exact chemistry is unknown) and it has almost 700 cycles. That's why small device batteries don't last long.

Contrast that with my EV.. I remain convinced that what will cause it's demise will be the same as an ICE car... some fender bender when it's 10-15 years old.

I just saw in the FB group that one of the members has a car which he uses for ride share. 2021. He's just about to pass 400,000k. He's tested the battery and it's still at 91% health (LFP). LFP car batteries are very durable.

If you want something to worry about - I'd be worried about the batteries in Hybrids. They lead a far far more tortuous life than that in a proper EV as they are smaller batteries in less efficient cars so they get smashed every drive.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

See that's the thing. These are big batteries and they are just being "tickled". Our EV .. is LFP so it says in the app to charge to 100 every week. We don't always manage this but I try to do it once a month. For the most part when it gets down to 40 someone plugs it in and we charge it to 70. A few days later the same thing happens. So it doesn't even get one full cycle a week. It probably only does about 60% charging a week. At over two years old and with 25k on it, I reckon that it has done well less than 100 full cycles so far. Even if you said we did absolutely the worst treatment we could to the thing LFP in that use case is supposed to do 3500-4500 cycles. If you are real nice to them they can do 12000 to 19000 cycles.

Contrast this with my phone which is not two years old (It's not LFP but the exact chemistry is unknown) and it has almost 700 cycles. That's why small device batteries don't last long.

Contrast that with my EV.. I remain convinced that what will cause it's demise will be the same as an ICE car... some fender bender when it's 10-15 years old.

I just saw in the FB group that one of the members has a car which he uses for ride share. 2021. He's just about to pass 400,000k. He's tested the battery and it's still at 91% health (LFP). LFP car batteries are very durable.

If you want something to worry about - I'd be worried about the batteries in Hybrids. They lead a far far more tortuous life than that in a proper EV as they are smaller batteries in less efficient cars so they get smashed every drive.

I wish this was the case. Even if a battery is never used, it just dies. There is no exact number of cycles they can do. Even un-used you will probably get a similar run from it. You average laptop battery would probably be lucky to be discharged once per year. They still die at 5'ish years of age.

"Cycles" only means somethimg for the time period the battery chemistry is viable.

I was watching questionable garage a year or two back. He wanted to harvest the batteries from a lowish milage crashed tesla.

https://youtu.be/NzjeuIOs_3o't=1610

Take a look. He has never gone ahead with the project. Tesla probably makes the most reliable, well made and designed batteries. But have a look at the battery modules as he lifts them out. I don't think there is a single module there that isn't leaking. IMO this means none of the modules are safe for re-use...... Not one .... They would probably have been fine while in the tesla with its battery management systems, heating and cooling circuits, safety circuits etc.... but to re-use leaking cells ...... and put an aftermarket controller on them

there is a reason why re-sale is absolutely horrific on evs ...... everyone has owned lots of "things" that contain batteries in there life times. and the only absolute certainty is ... the battery will die at some point. Who is going to spend $20,000+++ on an essentially worthless car

The oldest car i have here is 75 years old. I don't give a seconds thought to its petrol tank (let alone its motor). It can sit un-used for 5 years, I throw a fresh battery in it ... some fresh fuel ... prime the carby and she's away again. It would be dumped at the local tip if I had to spend $20,000+ every 5 -> 10years just to have a functional vehicle just "because" another battery has crapped itself (well I'm sure another battery will have crapped itself. In its case there is a big difference between a $100 battery and a $20,000+ battery).

seeya
Shane L.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

I wish this was the case. Even if a battery is never used, it just dies. There is no exact number of cycles they can do. Even un-used you will probably get a similar run from it. You average laptop battery would probably be lucky to be discharged once per year. They still die at 5'ish years of age.

"Cycles" only means somethimg for the time period the battery chemistry is viable.

I was watching questionable garage a year or two back. He wanted to harvest the batteries from a lowish milage crashed tesla.

https://youtu.be/NzjeuIOs_3o't=1610

Take a look. He has never gone ahead with the project. Tesla probably makes the most reliable, well made and designed batteries. But have a look at the battery modules as he lifts them out. I don't think there is a single module there that isn't leaking. IMO this means none of the modules are safe for re-use...... Not one .... They would probably have been fine while in the tesla with its battery management systems, heating and cooling circuits, safety circuits etc.... but to re-use leaking cells ...... and put an aftermarket controller on them

there is a reason why re-sale is absolutely horrific on evs ...... everyone has owned lots of "things" that contain batteries in there life times. and the only absolute certainty is ... the battery will die at some point. Who is going to spend $20,000+++ on an essentially worthless car

The oldest car i have here is 75 years old. I don't give a seconds thought to its petrol tank (let alone its motor). It can sit un-used for 5 years, I throw a fresh battery in it ... some fresh fuel ... prime the carby and she's away again. It would be dumped at the local tip if I had to spend $20,000+ every 5 -> 10years just to have a functional vehicle just "because" another battery has crapped itself (well I'm sure another battery will have crapped itself. In its case there is a big difference between a $100 battery and a $20,000+ battery).

seeya
Shane L.

I agree. Time gets batteries regardless of use. The best estimate of time for an LFP battery is 15-20 years. I have no expectations that this car will last longer than 15-20 years. It's just not how things work now. It's important to realise that the early tesla packs are far far less durable than LFP which is the most common battery in EV's in the Australian market by far.

I'm not sure what relevance a 75 year old car is. I have a 56 year old car and just rebuilt the engine and gearbox. The club people tell me they need an engine rebuild every 20-30 even if they aren't used anyway as they corrode. I've owned it for 25 years and only done about 15k on it. So that doesn't seem much better than the EV..

None the less, my defender has just turned 20. I can assure you that in the last ten years I've spent 20k on maintenance. It's actually more than that but I don't want to add it up. But defenders are not normal. I can justify repairing it because it still has value as a vehicle. They are an outlier. I'm guessing there will be very very few D3/D4/new Defenders on the road past 20 because they will be written off before that due to repair costs. When a vehicles economic value declines it repairable value becomes far less, and the cost of repairs has increased significantly recently.

So given the EV has far far lower maintenance requirements.... I reckon if I had to put a battery in it every 10-15 I'll still be ahead! But I don't think I'll have to.. and even if I do the aftermarket will very likely deliver me a battery for far far less than it's current cost. In the meantime I'll have virtually no fuel and little to no repair costs.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

If you do mainly short trips, you may be able to work around the battery as it derates with age (as all batteries do). I don't really believe the reliability studies that show EV's are proving to be extremely unreliable compared to normal cars. You see, with recalls, warranty work etc... What do they consider unreliable? is it just dumb stuff like parking sensors not working, tire pressure senders.... or is the car actually breaking to the point where is can't be used.... That is what I consider unreliability. if the car can't function as a car.

seeya
Shane L.

Shortish trips - it is Darwin

I didn't record where the article was but it referenced that real life performance of an EV battery was actually better than the manufacturers were claiming as the manufacturer sat it on a test bench and went - charge - discharge - repeat. Real lif is charge use for a while and then recharge. Time will tell.

As I use the car as a car and charge it as required I have not recorded all details of my use and charging sessions etc. but after 2 years and almost 50K km the range and performance has not noticeably diminished.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

I agree. Time gets batteries regardless of use. The best estimate of time for an LFP battery is 15-20 years. I have no expectations that this car will last longer than 15-20 years. It's just not how things work now. It's important to realise that the early tesla packs are far far less durable than LFP which is the most common battery in EV's in the Australian market by far.

I'm not sure what relevance a 75 year old car is. I have a 56 year old car and just rebuilt the engine and gearbox. The club people tell me they need an engine rebuild every 20-30 even if they aren't used anyway as they corrode. I've owned it for 25 years and only done about 15k on it. So that doesn't seem much better than the EV..

None the less, my defender has just turned 20. I can assure you that in the last ten years I've spent 20k on maintenance. It's actually more than that but I don't want to add it up. But defenders are not normal. I can justify repairing it because it still has value as a vehicle. They are an outlier. I'm guessing there will be very very few D3/D4/new Defenders on the road past 20 because they will be written off before that due to repair costs. When a vehicles economic value declines it repairable value becomes far less, and the cost of repairs has increased significantly recently.

So given the EV has far far lower maintenance requirements.... I reckon if I had to put a battery in it every 10-15 I'll still be ahead! But I don't think I'll have to.. and even if I do the aftermarket will very likely deliver me a battery for far far less than it's current cost. In the meantime I'll have virtually no fuel and little to no repair costs.

15 -> 20year Ok, if you insist. No a car engine will never corrode out, that is insanity. Just change its coolant regulary and it'll be fine. If your really concerned run a waterless coolant in it (expensive), they run hotter, but there is no boiling point and the stuff lasts forever and never corrodes anything.

I have my fingers crossed you are right about the 15->20years. sadly these batteries are already failing. But hey, lets hope you are right.

Here I have a 1950 Citroen Traction Avant, two 1963 citroen id19s, a ranger over (fully alloy motor), a citroen cx2500 GTi turbo ( 40years old ... the motor has never been touched), and the modern poogoes are over 15years old. Guess how much corrosion I have to deal with

Please don't start the "Look over there, trees burn too" type responses to valid concerns about battery life and propensity to fire. saying things like "but, but, but ICE engine will corrode out too" is just nuts. There is Model Ts still running around with there original engine blocks and motors in them. they probably ran on bore water for 80years too.

seeya
shane L.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

15 -> 20year Ok, if you insist. No a car engine will never corrode out, that is insanity. Just change its coolant regulary and it'll be fine. If your really concerned run a waterless coolant in it (expensive), they run hotter, but there is no boiling point and the stuff lasts forever and never corrodes anything.

I have my fingers crossed you are right about the 15->20years. sadly these batteries are already failing. But hey, lets hope you are right.

Here I have a 1950 Citroen Traction Avant, two 1963 citroen id19s, a ranger over (fully alloy motor), a citroen cx2500 GTi turbo ( 40years old ... the motor has never been touched), and the modern poogoes are over 15years old. Guess how much corrosion I have to deal with

Please don't start the "Look over there, trees burn too" type responses to valid concerns about battery life and propensity to fire. saying things like "but, but, but ICE engine will corrode out too" is just nuts. There is Model Ts still running around with there original engine blocks and motors in them. they probably ran on bore water for 80years too.

seeya
shane L.

Look.. there is the chance to surprise us on the upside or the downside. We are literally watching technology advance. The batteries in my car were only first used in like 2021 or something. Maybe they will all be dead at ten, but also maybe they will be a perfectly good battery stuck in an old decrepit car at 20

It's also going to be hard going forward because technology is changing so rapidly. But I guess it's just like any car, some engines are bombproof and some are hand grenades.

As to fire, I don't worry charging my car downstairs. But I won't even connect the battery up to my classic without having a line of sight to a fire extinguisher and an open exit to push it out of if required.

There are 'Pros' and 'Cons' here, ad infinitum. I'm not swayed one way, or t'other, as the EV format isn't applicable to my lifestyle. I certainly don't begrudge anyone who has one.

I can see some advantages. My wife's past employer had a swag of EVs, with the majority of drivers being female. As they were required to wear work clobber, not having to pump a liquid fuel, especially Diesel, was a bonus. They also had topping up facilities at HQ. Not nearly enough for the number of cars, but we are talking Government here.

My main worry, with regard to the discussion on how battery technology is advancing so quickly, would be that, in the immediate future, a 'New Generation' battery system would not be compatible with an existing vehicle, without major modifications, to what appears to be deemed by Asian manufacturers, as a disposable item. (We know how car companies work)

Originally Posted by Saitch

There are 'Pros' and 'Cons' here, ad infinitum. I'm not swayed one way, or t'other, as the EV format isn't applicable to my lifestyle. I certainly don't begrudge anyone who has one.

I can see some advantages. My wife's past employer had a swag of EVs, with the majority of drivers being female. As they were required to wear work clobber, not having to pump a liquid fuel, especially Diesel, was a bonus. They also had topping up facilities at HQ. Not nearly enough for the number of cars, but we are talking Government here.

My main worry, with regard to the discussion on how battery technology is advancing so quickly, would be that, in the immediate future, a 'New Generation' battery system would not be compatible with an existing vehicle, without major modifications, to what appears to be deemed by Asian manufacturers, as a disposable item. (We know how car companies work)

EV's will work very well while barely anyone uses them. The cars themselves are great, there downfall is the battery and charging infrastructure. While very few people use them, they are fine. Workplaces I'm sure will outlaw the charing of them ( ok while maybe two or three people charge them). Do you think the employer is going to pay for 25 ... 100 cars to charge at there workplace (forgetting the infrastructure costs and needs).

Its all just soon luny and insane as soon as you talk any sort of mass roll out. The hurdles are pretty much insurountable. what is the country everyone always reference when they talk EV's ... um, Norway? Yeah, government mandates and freebies is forcing the sale of a lot of EV's. what they don't mention is this new cuba is over 80% ICE vehicles on the roads, this is unlikely to change.

It is very comical though. I had to laugh when I heard the latest stupidity. Wow ... 5minute charging Now even someone with the tiniest little brain .... Surely they will think. OK, to charge an average EV in 5minutes. You are going to want about a 1 million watt charger. How many locations in Australia do you think would have a 1million watt grid connection. How expensive do you think a 1 million watt grid connection will be. Now lets not think like a 5 year old, lets think with the common sense of a 12 year old. An average fuel station has 18 pumps? So to charge 18 cars at 1MW each, you would need an 18,000,000 watt grid connection (that is without losses, probably add 30% to that). Are we going to be sensible yet