Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

It's not Russia. And there is a cost to society of everyone driving 4x4s around the city. Pollution, emissions, and frankly it has several other negative effects in crowded cities. Lets not forget that major cities are home to over 73% of our population.

All I'm suggesting is that when the time for another vehicle comes up, that they consider if an EV would meet their needs. Maybe just one SUV out of the household?

If nothing else, because you'll save a motza by comparison? I had to go out on Sunday and did 200k. The cost of that in fuel in the defender is around $48 (12l/100). If I did it one of those lusted after camry hybrids at 4l/100 - that's still $16. The energy cost to me was $2.40? Is that not enough to warrant consideration? Are you that committed to always driving an SUV?

If it’s all about the cost then the jury is still out IMO. If you consider end to end costs including purchase price, fuel, servicing & repairs, insurance and depreciation then that’s a lot to look at. Not saying you’re wrong - I might run some quick numbers but it’s not as cut and dried as running costs.

Originally Posted by 101RRS

just buy what suits you.

Garry

I think that is what Cap'n Rightfoot is alluding to.

A lot of people own 4x4 wagons and twin cabs, which don't appear to suit them. I have a rellie who has a large, twin cab 'tilly and who has no practical reason on earth to own one.
I was so bold as to suggest that, 'It's all about "The Look", not about functionallity' and they replied in the affirmative.

Originally Posted by Homestar

If it’s all about the cost then the jury is still out IMO. If you consider end to end costs including purchase price, fuel, servicing & repairs, insurance and depreciation then that’s a lot to look at. Not saying you’re wrong - I might run some quick numbers but it’s not as cut and dried as running costs.

Frankly I agree with you. For me at least - we probably don't drive enough to justify an additional car. The problem is my family refuse to drive the defender around and frankly I'd rather buy another car then let people drive my precious.

We are fortunate to be able to access the EV salary sacrifice deal (I know that's not an option for everyone) and that was what encouraged me to buy an EV. At the time we bought our car which is only just a year yesterday prices were higher and there was less choice. None the less I worked out that it was cheaper for us to buy the Tesla than another Golf. With the EV price war I expect this would be even more favourable now. However the best option would have been for us to continue to use the golf, but alas it had design issues that were crazy expensive and were baked it. I'm bitter about that.

As to the operating cost the EV is clearly much cheaper than the Golf. Most people that own Teslas don't do any servicing other than cabin filter, wiper and tyre changes so that's a big saving right there. Now we are on the 8c electricity deal the "fuel" is clearly much cheaper.

In summary overall I believe it's cheaper for our family to operate an EV but as I've said we probably don't drive enough. We did 14,414 K's in the first year, which was more than we expected but we've strongly taken k's off the Defender.

On the forums I have seen many people who do more like 50k per year. These people are saving huge amounts.

My niece is a young doctor and drives 33k a year for work. We calculated the cost in her ice car (a honda hatch) and an EV would be a massive saving to her.

EDIT: There is an uber driver I'm aware of who is up to 280k in a little over 2 years. So far no actual repairs, and only cabin filters, wipers and tyres. Original brake pads!
EDIT2: Despite only having about 400k real world range there has been only one occasion where we have needed to charge outside the house. And then it was a free charger at a motel. So all charging has been at home.

So just doing some back of the envelope calculations here.
Based on 2019 model vehicles. 14,000KM per year (average Aussie KM travelled)

2019 Hybrid Camry SX (Mid spec)
Purchase price – $42,800
Fuel over 5 years. Real world average for this car is 5.2 litres per hundred. Yota claim 4.8 (average price of petrol at $1.71 per litre since 2019) - This would be $6,224.40
Servicing – 4 services required – 15,000KM service intervals - $820.00 Toyota capped price servicing for the first 6 years or 60KKM is $205 per service
Repairs – nil – 5 year warranty and it’s a Toyota.
Tyres – Nil – 90KKM to 100KKM is easily doable on the OEM rubber
Insurance - $6,500. Based on $1,300 PA – I’ve found cheaper but this will do for the calcs.
Total Costs - $56,344.40
Selling today with 70 to 100KKM for between 28 and 32K so lets say $30,000.
Out of pocket $26,344.40 or around $5,270 per year over 5 years.

2019 Tesla Model 3
They look like they were between $70K and $93K when new so lets split the difference - $81,500
Fuel – just working on a grid price of $0.30 per KWH here and some of my numbers will be wobbly for sure so feel free to correct these. Lets say 550KM from a charge so 127 charges over 5 years. 100KWH per charge so 12,700KWH - $3,810
Servicing – Zero? Not sure, happy to call it that.
Repairs - Nil
Tyres – 1 set @ $800?
Insurance - $2,500 - cheapest I could find was $2,650 but I've rounded down - so for 5 years - $12,500
Total Costs - $98,610
Selling today for between $35 and $55K – lets say $45K
Out of pocket $51,610 or around $10K per year.

If you used current Model 3 price of say $72K then out of pocket would still be $40K over the life of the vehicle and if you charged it every time for free – not including the you’ve spend $30K on solar and batteries at home then it still doesn’t work if you’re pedaling the cheaper to run line. The purchase price would need to match a current Hybrid offering to make overall costs a real argument.

"buy whatever suits you" - yes this. Also, like homestar said we are having too much fun

The one thing we absolutely agree on captain_rightfoot: the greenest choice is drive less and I have been doing that for years. Small anecdote; I used to sit in traffic angry at all the trucks on the road and I thought to myself: what if they made it illegal for those things to be on the road during the morning and evening rush hours, that way I could possibly get to the office and back without standing still hours on end. Of course, rationale kicked in a bit later when I had let go of my annoyance and I decided, those guys are on the road FOR THEIR JOB. I am the one who does not need to be there! So i decided from that moment on that whenever and wherever possible I would work from home.

I also liked the argument I just saw: that is what freedom means, buy what you like. That for me is the biggest argument of the bunch. EV's have their purpose. If I would still live like I did with my ex some years ago she would have a honda-e by now since it has enough range to do what she needs to do and I like that little civic lookalike. But me, myself, I am a petrolhead and i will be driving ICE far beyond their best-by-date simply because it is a hobby of mine.

It is a choice indeed. I have had electric heating (in the house) for 20 odd years and electric hot water for at least 10. Those were choices to be "green" (because I bought so called green energy but it wan't of course but I did my bit) but I bought a 4.6L V8 because I want one.

As for buying something for the looks, I have plenty of self employed mates around here (in IT) that drive a tesla and virtually all of them profess that they bought them for the wallet, not for the environment because till very recently you practically got them for free with all the goverment grants... Funny how that goes.

Ah well,
Nuff talk, let's see if I can get some work done today
-P

Originally Posted by Homestar

So just doing some back of the envelope calculations here.
Based on 2019 model vehicles. 14,000KM per year (average Aussie KM travelled)

2019 Hybrid Camry SX (Mid spec)
SNIP

2019 Tesla Model 3
They look like they were between $70K and $93K when new so lets split the difference - $81,500
Fuel – just working on a grid price of $0.30 per KWH here and some of my numbers will be wobbly for sure so feel free to correct these. Lets say 550KM from a charge so 127 charges over 5 years. 100KWH per charge so 12,700KWH - $3,810
Servicing – Zero? Not sure, happy to call it that.
Repairs - Nil
Tyres – 1 set @ $800?
Insurance - $2,500 - cheapest I could find was $2,650 but I've rounded down - so for 5 years - $12,500
Total Costs - $98,610
Selling today for between $35 and $55K – lets say $45K
Out of pocket $51,610 or around $10K per year.

If you used current Model 3 price of say $72K then out of pocket would still be $40K over the life of the vehicle and if you charged it every time for free – not including the you’ve spend $30K on solar and batteries at home then it still doesn’t work if you’re pedaling the cheaper to run line. The purchase price would need to match a current Hybrid offering to make overall costs a real argument.

Hold up there! Plug this into your spreadsheet.

Purchase Price
the new price of a model 3 drive away is 58k!
next is the charging. A model 3 battery is 55kwh not 100kwh! They say it does 513k but you'd be better to work on about 450 full to empty. If you want more range you need to add 10k onto the price and that will add an extra 11k to the range and make awd and a 4sec 0-100 car!

Home charging.
As to the charging - if you can charge at home there are several deals now offering free, 5c or 8c. For me one years power is $224. A M3 should be less. If you do a lot of charging outside the home it would be more, but I can't guess that.

Insurance.
Again wildly variable. I just renewed with Shannons and it was just under $1500. Which is only $200 more than our Golf.

Selling cost. Hard to say. I would think after 5 years you'd be looking at around $25, but can't say for sure.

What has made EV's unbeatable for me has been salary sacrificing. Moving all these costs to pre tax. That's not available for ICE and hybrid without FBT.

EDIT: Hang on ... you're doing a past calculation. That's a whacky way of doing it. Wouldn't you be better to work out what would happen if you bought now? That's really unfair on the EV as prices have dropped and it doesn't reflect current reality.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Hold up there! Plug this into your spreadsheet.

Purchase Price
the new price of a model 3 drive away is 58k!
next is the charging. A model 3 battery is 55kwh not 100kwh! They say it does 513k but you'd be better to work on about 450 full to empty. If you want more range you need to add 10k onto the price and that will add an extra 11k to the range and make awd and a 4sec 0-100 car!

Home charging.
As to the charging - if you can charge at home there are several deals now offering free, 5c or 8c. For me one years power is $224. A M3 should be less. If you do a lot of charging outside the home it would be more, but I can't guess that.

Insurance.
Again wildly variable. I just renewed with Shannons and it was just under $1500. Which is only $200 more than our Golf.

Selling cost. Hard to say. I would think after 5 years you'd be looking at around $25, but can't say for sure.

What has made EV's unbeatable for me has been salary sacrificing. Moving all these costs to pre tax. That's not available for ICE and hybrid without FBT.

EDIT: Hang on ... you're doing a past calculation. That's a whacky way of doing it. Wouldn't you be better to work out what would happen if you bought now? That's really unfair on the EV as prices have dropped and it doesn't reflect current reality.

2019 price was NOT $58K and I’m struggling to keep up with the discounts announced almost weekly by Tesla now. It’s still doesn’t add up using your figures from what I can work out.

And no - doing a calc using data we know NOW is not wacky at all. You could FORECAST something into the future if you want - knock yourself out. I’m dealing with known facts that have happened not speculation which it seems EV zealots are the best as because the FACTS don’t look good.

And if your power bills are $200 a year I’m sure you have solar and probably a battery - you need to take that cost into your calculations as well. You should say ‘my power costs $200 a year NOW - after I spent thousands on solar etc’

I spent 15 minutes looking all this up on Google so feel free to run your own numbers and post them - as I said in my post I’m happy to be corrected on the figures for the EV as I don’t own one and am going on whatever I can find quickly.

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel… 🤣

In 2019, I don’t think the market demographic for the Tesla 3 would even have considered a Camry. They would have been making comparisons with luxury sports cars like the BMW 3 series.

Likewise, budget conscious Camry buyers would not have been considering a Tesla. In 2020 they may have considered the MG ZS EV if looking to go full electric.

It is only now as battery prices are coming down and we are seeing more competition from China would Toyota Camry buyers now be considering options like the BYD Seal or Toyota bZ4X. But like BMW buyers, Tesla buyers still wouldn’t consider a Camry as an alternative. Even my 2008 BMW 320d drives better than a new Camry, is more enjoyable to own, and is much better value for money. By comparison the Camry is a soulless car.

So if wanting to do retrospective cost of ownership comparisons, you should be comparing a 2019 Tesla 3 with a BMW 3 series, or a 2020 Hybrid Camry with a MG ZS EV.

But unless you are buying a fleet for a company do people seriously make new car buying decisions based on the total cost of ownership. If total cost of ownership is the true driver then you would buy a low km second hand car and avoid the big depreciation hit new cars have (this is not financial advice!).