Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by PhilipA

Just to add a bit to the battery debate,The BYD "blade" battery cannot be separated into component parts as tested by Munro in the USA.
They compleetly dismantled a BYD Shark to its component parts, except AFAIR they could not in practical terms dismantle the battery pack.
Regards PhilipA

The Tesla LFP batteries are made up of 6 modules, with a total of only 106 LFP cells which it would appear they can be broken down to the individual cells within them. Whether this will result in individual cells being replaced at a point in the future is entirely unclear. So far there haven't been any reports I've heard of these batteries failing, but I suppose still early days.

In the older tesla roadsters repairers are going down to bypassing failing individual 18650 cells of which there can be thousands in those packs. Tesla are building replacement battery packs, but slowly.

I expect that if it is a problem then there will be a market for replacement batteries and companies will step up due to the volumes and demand (if necessary). Just like there are aftermarket batteries for Nissan Leaf now.

Bit of reality on the actual state of battery fires in Aus. 8 in total out of a quarter of a million cars at this point 8 months ago. Leading causes of fires are crashes (like this one) and external causes like arson and house fires. Only one burnt on charge so far, and I don't believe it was a Tesla. So your car is far more likely to be the victim of a house fire than the cause of one.

As I've noted before.. in my classic car I believe fire is the leading cause of their demise over the years... and not due to crashes just while in operation.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

The Tesla LFP batteries are made up of 6 modules, with a total of only 106 LFP cells which it would appear they can be broken down to the individual cells within them. Whether this will result in individual cells being replaced at a point in the future is entirely unclear. So far there haven't been any reports I've heard of these batteries failing, but I suppose still early days.

In the older tesla roadsters repairers are going down to bypassing failing individual 18650 cells of which there can be thousands in those packs. Tesla are building replacement battery packs, but slowly.

I expect that if it is a problem then there will be a market for replacement batteries and companies will step up due to the volumes and demand (if necessary). Just like there are aftermarket batteries for Nissan Leaf now.

The problem is the cost of the batteries, and the safe disposal of the battery being replaced. A telsa battery a few years ago was over $20,000. It will not have gotten cheaper (the supply and demand bit). Are you going to spend $20k++ on a car that is essentially worthless and pretty much can be considered hazmat material needing to be disposed of

The original tesla roadsters may well become collectable, so someone ... somewhere might replace the battery (jay leno maybe? ... then again, tesla will just give him a new battery ).

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Bit of reality on the actual state of battery fires in Aus. 8 in total out of a quarter of a million cars at this point 8 months ago. Leading causes of fires are crashes (like this one) and external causes like arson and house fires. Only one burnt on charge so far, and I don't believe it was a Tesla. So your car is far more likely to be the victim of a house fire than the cause of one.

As I've noted before.. in my classic car I believe fire is the leading cause of their demise over the years... and not due to crashes just while in operation.

I don't quite understand why you keep mentioning ICE vehicle fires. That is no comparison. An ICE vehicle fire ... is just a fire. No most old car do not burn, they become worhtless and and recycled (actually recycled, not the lithium battery version of recycling). I can control one of my cars burning with a garden hose.

we are talking battery fires, not "car" fires. If you want to compare the electric car fires to something, it needs to be other battery fires, not car fires.

seeya
Shane L.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

The problem is the cost of the batteries, and the safe disposal of the battery being replaced. A telsa battery a few years ago was over $20,000. It will not have gotten cheaper (the supply and demand bit). Are you going to spend $20k++ on a car that is essentially worthless and pretty much can be considered hazmat material needing to be disposed of

The original tesla roadsters may well become collectable, so someone ... somewhere might replace the battery (jay leno maybe? ... then again, tesla will just give him a new battery ).

I agree with that. By the time a run of the mill Tesla is 15 years old or something like that, it's residual value might not support the fitting of a new battery, although that will somewhat depend of the cost of them by then. It's guesses as to how much that is.

If I may compare that to an ICE car, there are many many examples of 10-15 yo (sometimes not even that old) being written off because of an expensive component failure.

Hence my assertion that EV's will have quite a lot in common with any other car in relation to end of life. What is unknown is whether battery failure will even be a thing. Early indications on the LFP batteries are promising.

I do honestly believe that when there is a supply of EV batteries to recycle we will make it happen. At the moment there aren't really any to recycle so that would be a poor business decision.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

I agree with that. By the time a run of the mill Tesla is 15 years old or something like that, it's residual value might not support the fitting of a new battery, although that will somewhat depend of the cost of them by then. It's guesses as to how much that is.

If I may compare that to an ICE car, there are many many examples of 10-15 yo (sometimes not even that old) being written off because of an expensive component failure.

Hence my assertion that EV's will have quite a lot in common with any other car in relation to end of life. What is unknown is whether battery failure will even be a thing. Early indications on the LFP batteries are promising.

I do honestly believe that when there is a supply of EV batteries to recycle we will make it happen. At the moment there aren't really any to recycle so that would be a poor business decision.

Oh come on .... The majority of cars get parked up ... generally just worn out but still working. If I went around my back paddock right now and spent a weekend with a battery and a boat tank, most of the parts cars would start and drive. They rest of them is just so far gone, they are not economically viable.

The average car age in australia is 10years old. I don't see a lot of EVs reaching this age and still being a functional vehicle. That's ok you think? 'Cos maybe its close to the average age. Well average ... means average, so likely HALF the cars on the road are over 10years old.

Bottom line ... enforce electric throw-aways like a lot of the luny 1st world countries are attempting, and what you do is take away the access to cars to your average person. Unless you can afford a new car under lease, you cannot afford a car at all (after all, who would be absolutely insane enough to by an eight year old EV ....).

These things have got to be the worse most insane thing we have ever done for the environment ... hands down ... easily.

seeya
Shane L.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

.....we are talking battery fires, not "car" fires. If you want to compare the electric car fires to something, it needs to be other battery fires, not car fires.

seeya
Shane L.

Batteries don't catch fire that easily. Don't believe me? Take the battery out of the laptop you're typing on and try to set it alight. In a fire safe place of course, like outside on a hard surface.

Originally Posted by RANDLOVER

Batteries don't catch fire that easily. Don't believe me? Take the battery out of the laptop you're typing on and try to set it alight. In a fire safe place of course, like outside on a hard surface.

Not ever. Why would you try this?. Do you know how toxic the fumes given off are The fires you see are batteries going into thermal run-away. They are internally breaking down. Why would you try to physically set one alight? Though you raise a very good issue, regardless of the source of igntion ... Wow big lithium batteries are hordously dangerous if there is a house/shed/bush fire etc....

If you really are interseted, Stached on youtube is doing a really good series on lithium battery fires at the moment, where he is doing this sort of thing.