Thread: Synthetic Fuels

The major problem with hydrogen is that it is much more difficult to store and transport than LPG. LPG, as the name implies is liquid at normal temperatures and quite modest pressures.

To liquefy hydrogen it needs to be cooled to at least minus two hundred and forty degrees and -250C if you don't want high pressure. The alternative is to store it at (very high) pressure. A possible alternative is to convert it to some sort of hydride or ammonia for storage - but these have their own issues.

Then there are other issues - hydrogen can permeate through almost anything, especially at high pressure. And forms an explosive mixture with air at mixtures from 4-74%. Add to that, the flame is almost colourless, On the other hand it is lower density than air, so in many cases a leak disperses where LPG would accumulate dangerously. Practical vehicle storage of hydrogen is heavy, especially for small vehicles.

But the really big elephant in the room is efficiency. To go from grid power to a battery in a vehicle to an electric motor to drive a vehicle is about 90% efficient. To go from grid power to hydrogen to vehicle storage to fuel cell to an electric motor to run the vehicle is at best 60% efficient, and in practice less. Use the hydrogen to run a conventional engine, and drop that to probably 30%. Only feasible on a large scale if power is near free.

However, it is likely to be a feasible fuel for very large vehicles (trains, ships, maybe trucks) as storage becomes much less of a problem.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

The major problem with hydrogen is that it is much more difficult to store and transport than LPG. LPG, as the name implies is liquid at normal temperatures and quite modest pressures.

To liquefy hydrogen it needs to be cooled to at least minus two hundred and forty degrees and -250C if you don't want high pressure. The alternative is to store it at (very high) pressure. A possible alternative is to convert it to some sort of hydride or ammonia for storage - but these have their own issues.

Then there are other issues - hydrogen can permeate through almost anything, especially at high pressure. And forms an explosive mixture with air at mixtures from 4-74%. Add to that, the flame is almost colourless, On the other hand it is lower density than air, so in many cases a leak disperses where LPG would accumulate dangerously. Practical vehicle storage of hydrogen is heavy, especially for small vehicles.

But the really big elephant in the room is efficiency. To go from grid power to a battery in a vehicle to an electric motor to drive a vehicle is about 90% efficient. To go from grid power to hydrogen to vehicle storage to fuel cell to an electric motor to run the vehicle is at best 60% efficient, and in practice less. Use the hydrogen to run a conventional engine, and drop that to probably 30%. Only feasible on a large scale if power is near free.

However, it is likely to be a feasible fuel for very large vehicles (trains, ships, maybe trucks) as storage becomes much less of a problem.

CSIRO were looking at converting to ammonia as one option.

Ineos have been promoting hydrogen INEOS & The Hydrogen Revolution | INEOS Grenadier AU
They produce lots and are looking at setting up 'green hydrogen production' across Europe.

Using the hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel would be less efficient again but would solve the distribution and 'in vehicle' storage issues.


Colin

The industry is in its infancy, sure, but it's growing. Just one example:

You may need to take notes......

Hydrogen is low octane, low power huh?

Here is one for you John

" BHP's Yandi iron ore mine is working with BP on a trial of "hydrotreated vegetable oil" for haul trucks and other mining equipment." from Resources industry report card spruiks 'climate action'

"Hydrotreated Vegetable Oil

HVO is a paraffinic bio-based liquid, with the chemical structure Cn H2n+2, originating from vegetable oil or animal fat.
From: Fuel, 2014
"

BPs version is "bp has acquired a 30% stake in Green Biofuels Ltd (GBF), the UK’s largest provider of hydrogenated vegetable oil (HVO)."
Link to GBF


BHP Link BP to Link GBF is linked to Hydrogen

The Word HYDROGENATED is the link - It means "charged or combined with hydrogen"

IF GBF, BHP and BP are reducing Green House gasses they may not like the emissions from Steam Methane Reformed Hydrogen. Hazer has the solution!

SAF or sustainable aviation fuel is interesting as It is supposed to work in existing Jet engines Apparently and allegedly and might or might not

The Aussie involved is 2021 only so not really on my radar. Air NZ is also in the Picture so IT may or MAY NOT be thing ?



"Jet Zero Australia Partners with LanzaJet to Deploy its Leading Alcohol-to-Jet (ATJ) Technology with Funding and Support by Qantas Group, Airbus, and Queensland Government to Progress Towards Australia’s First ATJ Sustainable Aviation Fuel Production PlantQUEENSLAND, March 30, 2023 — LanzaJet, a leading sustainable fuels technology company and sustainable fuels producer, today announced it is collaborating with Jet Zero Australia to start project development to progress towards the deployment of its leading LanzaJet Alcohol-to-Jet (ATJ) technology for a sustainable aviation fuel production plant in Queensland. The plant, which could be Australia’s first ATJ sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) production facility, is supported by the Queensland Government, Qantas, and Airbus as part of the Australian SAF Partnership.
SAF has been identified by airlines, governments, and energy leaders as the clearest and most immediate solution to decarbonizing aviation, which amounts to approximately 3% of global carbon dioxide emissions, with Australia being the second-biggest emitter of carbon per capita on domestic air travel. LanzaJet’s leading and proprietary technology, which has been developed and scaled for over a decade, produces drop-in, low-carbon intensity sustainable aviation fuel from ethanol for airlines to utilize without any aircraft or aviation infrastructure modifications.
“As exciting as it is for LanzaJet to deploy its alcohol-to-jet technology to decarbonize aviation in Australia, it is equally gratifying to know its impact in developing the domestic agricultural industry, providing a path for energy security, and enhancing the country’s national security posture and greater fuel independence,” said Jimmy Samartzis, CEO of LanzaJet. “We have enjoyed the privilege of partnering with public and private sector leaders around the world to fight climate change and enable the global energy transition, and this is an important step forward in Australia. All parties involved in Jet Zero Australia and the Australian SAF Partnership, from global aviation leaders in Qantas Group and Airbus to the Queensland Government are serious in their commitment to scaling SAF production at the urgency our planet needs. LanzaJet looks forward to seeing the impact this project has on Australia’s domestic biofuels industry as well as the larger global impact.”"

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

SAF or sustainable aviation fuel is interesting as It is supposed to work in existing Jet engines Apparently and allegedly and might or might not..............”"

In addition to alcohol derived jet fuel there is also a synthetic jet fuel made from fat, tallow, etc......High-fat flight is the first jetliner to make fossil fuel-free flight from London to New York - ABC News