Hydrogen Fuel

I have had this debate a number of times about the equipment that you install on your car to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Obviously the amount of energy required to split the water is far greater than what you would get back from burning the hydrogen and oxigen again (you always have a loss) I think these systems dump the oxygen too which is even worse. Anyway that's my arguement on it (and I think it's where WhiteD3 is coming from too).

A common reply to this is that you are not depending on the hydrogen to give you more power from its combustion but the fact that a small amount of hydrogen being present in the combustion chamber results in a more efficient burn of the fuel. Apparently there is some truth to this but there was a reason (which I can't remember right now) for that not even to be viable (I think it's that you need a lot more hydrogen to get the effect than what is typcially introduced by these kits or something like that)

The arguement for what I have just said above is that if you use such a system on an engine with computer controlled fuel delivery, that the hydrogen changes the relative quantities of the different gases in your exhaust and fool exhaust sensors which results in a correction by the fuel delivery system (I think by running a little leaner but not sure).

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Originally Posted by drivesafe

Lot of misinformation here.

Hi WhiteD3, your half correct. While you actually can use low voltages to produce large quantities of hydrogen, the problem is not low the volt voltage but that a huge amount of current is required to make enough hydrogen to power a vehicle, many time the amount of energy that the hydrogen would be able to supply.

Hi Justic, I think you will find the hydrogen and air mixture is no more dangerous then the existing fuel air mixture found in any petrol powered vehicle and an other point, the Hindenburg was not bought down by it’s hydrogen flotation gas but by the rocket fuel they used to put a reflective coating on the outside surface of the Zeppelin.

In the future, hydrogen may very well be the fuel of fuels but at this present time, both the extraordinary weight of the storage vessel needed to carry the gas and huge amounts of power needed to produce hydrogen in quantities of much less power makes it a fuel of little use, at this time, for day to day transport.

If anyone is interested in finding out the real facts about hydrogen, do a google search for “dr Billings”, he is probably the worlds leading expert on the subject.

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Hi Tim,

I meant compressing a mixture of hydrogen and air at about 1.5bar through an intercooler on a diesel. This worried me due to the expansion and 'atomisation' of the gas that would occur during a rupture of a pipe or the IC during a vehicle accident, adding to the damage:eek: Turbo petrol engines are only really compressing air through their IC, not usually a fuel/air mix.

JC

The purpose of the kit is to produce hydrogen as a fuel additive.

As previously stated unless someone invents perpetual motion using hydrogen to power a motor from water that is split with the power of the motor, is IMPOSSIBLE.

However a small amount of hydrogen added to the air intake MAY improve the diesel combustion increasing the efficiently of the motor enough to overcome the losses involved in splinting the water. BUT i would remain very skeptical until several independent labs have done a bit of research.

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Originally Posted by stirlsilver

I have had this debate a number of times about the equipment that you install on your car to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Obviously the amount of energy required to split the water is far greater than what you would get back from burning the hydrogen and oxigen again (you always have a loss) I think these systems dump the oxygen too which is even worse. Anyway that's my arguement on it (and I think it's where WhiteD3 is coming from too).

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Very true, but they usually keep the oxygen. But just some things to think about, get your voltage, plate size (anode cathode) and spacing perfect, add a catalyst. And the numbers start to look not so bad, but not that good that you could run a car on it.
Combustion, well HH & O burns, sort of it actually implodes, it will produce heat, but not much, the up side is. With hydrogen present you can run a motor quite lean, but the real advantage is that you are adding another expandable material to the expansion chamber, IE water. as we all know ( or should) its not heat that pushes a piston down, its the expansion of gasses and some solids that moves the piston, usually Co2 a bit of nitrogen etc. in short heat makes every thing bigger, that’s what makes the wheels go round. back in the 80s we would tune motors to run quite rich, adding fuel to cool the chamber and to have extra material to expand, and the added bonus of reducing loosed energy ( heat) though the cooling system, so there’s 3 little ways of where hho generators can and do work to improve efficiency of a IC motor, but it is not a magic fix and its quite hard to get right

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Originally Posted by stirlsilver

A common reply to this is that you are not depending on the hydrogen to give you more power from its combustion but the fact that a small amount of hydrogen being present in the combustion chamber results in a more efficient burn of the fuel. Apparently there is some truth to this but there was a reason (which I can't remember right now) for that not even to be viable (I think it's that you need a lot more hydrogen to get the effect than what is typcially introduced by these kits or something like that)

The arguement for what I have just said above is that if you use such a system on an engine with computer controlled fuel delivery, that the hydrogen changes the relative quantities of the different gases in your exhaust and fool exhaust sensors which results in a correction by the fuel delivery system (I think by running a little leaner but not sure).

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theres only water or water vapur pasing the sensors, its not a problem, just close the system down when the reves are slow

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Originally Posted by justinc

Hi Tim,

I meant compressing a mixture of hydrogen and air at about 1.5bar through an intercooler on a diesel. This worried me due to the expansion and 'atomisation' of the gas that would occur during a rupture of a pipe or the IC during a vehicle accident, adding to the damage:eek: Turbo petrol engines are only really compressing air through their IC, not usually a fuel/air mix.

JC

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if it was just HHO gas in the system yes, a nice little bang could follow, but you would have to be producing shuch large quanitys of HHO thats not going to happen.

what you would actualy have is some thing that looks like,

HHO OOOOOOOOOOOOO NNNNN CO2 CO2, and thats not going to go bang or even burn, way to lean

I am also under the opinion that we will not see a system where by you will be filling your fuel with water ;)

But, I'll see if I can find the link, I do believe there is a system under tests prior to public release, that sits in your garage and uses solar panels to power the system. Apparently it dispenses the gas into diving bottle type tanks which are connected to your vehicle and exchanged when empty.

So there you go!

Now............... where's that damn link

Not all that uncommon in EURO, but I think you will fined that the kit consists of a Home HHO generator, that’s compressed, then pumped into a tank. Watch his electricity bill.

in aussie its better to just do a CNG conversation, using the Gas already piped in, just compress it at home, CNG was quite popular in NZ in the 90's don’t know about now though. I did the math’s on that a couple of months ago, it came out that my TDi 300, is running now at 13 cents a klm, down to 4 cents a klm, conversation kit tanks compressor etc as a kit was about $8000. so after 80 000Klm its brake even, to me that’s 2 years, what will diesel cost in 2 more years?

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Originally Posted by cartm58

At a going away reception for the receptionist at site, l was talking to an engineer who drives a Discovery D2 TD5 and he was saying that he has imported a piece of kit from Italy to convert the D2 to run on Hydrogen gas and he would be making his own hydrogen gas a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas and he was also going to convert his home heating to Hydrogen gas. He was saying biggest problem was finding space within engine bay for the conversion equipment as he wanted to keep piping as shot as possible for the Hydrogen gas.

I will try and get some better details from him when l go back to site next week and post.

Anyone else heard of the conversion process and is it only suitable for Diesel powered vehicles

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Originally Posted by HangOver

I am also under the opinion that we will not see a system where by you will be filling your fuel with water ;)

But, I'll see if I can find the link, I do believe there is a system under tests prior to public release, that sits in your garage and uses solar panels to power the system. Apparently it dispenses the gas into diving bottle type tanks which are connected to your vehicle and exchanged when empty.

So there you go!

Now............... where's that damn link

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ouch thats big $$$$$ setup, no change from $20K and on a good day its worth about 30-40 klms a day, but it is free, now whats intrest repayments on a 20K personal load??

I dont know if this will help but i found this
This is the new hydrogen thread - Australian 4WD Action Online Forums - the 4WD, 4x4 and offroad truck community. Get the latest tips, news, reviews, images and video clips. Chat with other 4WDers and share your offroad adventures.

cheers
chaser

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Originally Posted by clean32

if it was just HHO gas in the system yes, a nice little bang could follow, but you would have to be producing shuch large quanitys of HHO thats not going to happen.

what you would actualy have is some thing that looks like,

HHO OOOOOOOOOOOOO NNNNN CO2 CO2, and thats not going to go bang or even burn, way to lean

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Excellent news Clean32.
Just the info I was after
As this was my only concern with the system, and have been offered one to trial on my RRC, I think i'll do it now!
I didn't want to make my vehicle into a bomb....:eek:(Well, not more than it already is anyway)
JC