Hydrogen Fuel

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Originally Posted by Michael2

I saw a video on the www a couple of years ago, but haven't been able to find it since.

There was a small motor (lawn mower motor I think) that was powered by hydrogen gas. The motor drove an alternator which powered a small welder and it turned an aluminium drum. The drum was submerged in a tank of water and the welder electrode touched the aluminium drum and arced. The spinning drum stopped the electrode from sticking to the aluminium. The arc bound O2 to the aluminium, falling to the bottom of the tank as an aluminium oxide residue, and the liberated hydrogen bubbled to the top and powered the motor.

Was it real? I don't know.

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It is quite real.

There is a patent on this and apparently BMW did some experiments to look at feasibility (BMW since went on to develop cars with high-pressure hydrogen storage instead - so that should say something).

Hydrogen supply unit - US Patent 4702894

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A unit substantially as shown in the drawings has been used to drive a 500 cc motor cycle engine. The wire 22 had a diameter of 1,6 mm and was of commercial purity (98% Al). The unit produced over 1000 cc of hydrogen a minute, with an aluminium
wire consumption rate of 140 to 180 cm per minute. The rate of deposition of aluminium oxide was about 4 kilograms per 500 kilometers travelled.

Conventional modifications were made to the carburettor to enable the engine to run on a mixture of hydrogen and air.

The wire 22 carries a voltage of about 18000 volts with a current of about 1 amp.

The invention may equally be used to power stationary industrial engines, as well as motor vehicle engines.

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Taking those claims at face value, the system requires 18kW of electrical energy, to power a 500cc (petrol) engine.

An average 500cc motorbike engine back then could be expected to produce a maximum of about 36kW of power. However, running on hydrogen produces about a 20% loss of power (based on real-world data). For simplicity, lets say 8kW are lost.

So it takes 18kW of energy to run an engine that produces 28kW. So assuming your alternator and drivetrain are 100% efficient, you now have a maximum of 10kW at the wheels, instead of 36.

Now with a rate of aluminium MIG wire consumption of 180 cm/min (or 108m/hr). What's the best price you can get a 7kg roll of 1mm mig wire for? $150ish? So that means just under $5/hr to run at current prices.

If the same engine averages 3l/100km, it would also cost about $5/hr to run, but you would have 3.5* the power at the wheels.

The interesting thing is.
Brown was a fraud, his devices couldn't do what was claimed. Same with Stanley Meyer and his "water fuel cell".

Ever heard of Dennis Lee? Proponent of free-energy devices who is helping to lighten the wallets of people all around the world. He sells a lot of these systems along with PICC, HAFC and a lot of other ancronyms designed to sound impressive.

Why can't people learn from history?

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Originally Posted by cartm58

At a going away reception for the receptionist at site, l was talking to an engineer who drives a Discovery D2 TD5 and he was saying that he has imported a piece of kit from Italy to convert the D2 to run on Hydrogen gas and he would be making his own hydrogen gas a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas and he was also going to convert his home heating to Hydrogen gas. He was saying biggest problem was finding space within engine bay for the conversion equipment as he wanted to keep piping as shot as possible for the Hydrogen gas.

I will try and get some better details from him when l go back to site next week and post.

Anyone else heard of the conversion process and is it only suitable for Diesel powered vehicles

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............i have seen these stories (almost urban myths by now) you would be hard pressed to produce the energy if i am wrong i have a hat ready to eat ....it's a bit like the anti bio posse claiming that bio eats your head and turns your car into a submarine or some such bull...the net has some useful informed stuff but a lot of bull too regards

Well said Dougal - very true.

I think there are 2 things here:
People love the idea of getting something for nothing
People like the idea that some backyard inventer has made some groundbreaking discovery...

I am just amazed about how much interest and publicity these frauds get - when their devices clearly break the law of conservation of energy...

Btw - in case anyone is interested, I cut and posted my "back of the envelope" analysis from the other thread - since it was locked.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

OK how about a "back of the envelope" analysis of these hydrogen electolysis systems (talking about the add-on systems to a petrol or diesel here).

You have an engine running on petrol or diesel, let's say it produces 100kW or power.

The engine is fitted with a 100A Alternator. 100A x 13.5V = 1.35kW (power produced) - it would probably take at least 1.5-2kW of engine power to turn the alternator.

So let's say all of the 1.35kW is available for electrolysis.

Water electrolysis has a theoretical maximum of about 80-90% efficiency (efficiency at converting the electrical energy to H2 + O2) - note that that is theoretical, most systems are much worse.

However let's say we have 80% efficiency. So we get 0.8*1.35 = 1.08kW.

Now a typical engine is at best about 30% efficient at turning fuel into power. So we would really have about 0.3kW of power generated by the fuel.

So - bottom line, is that even if the power of the alternator is "free", and the alternator was ONLY running the electrolysis. We could expect <1% difference in fuel consumption. (also assuming the fuel metering was adjusted to compensate).

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The supporters of these systems claim that the presence of hydrogen changes the combustion process to make it more efficient. However I cannopt find any scientific research which supports this. There are papers which show significant changes in combustion processes by adding H2, however only once you get to 15-20% H2 in the fuel.

And for anyone drawing parallels between these systems and the "diesel gas" type systems, they use a ratio of around 25L of LPG to every 100L of diesel.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

W
People like the idea that some backyard inventer has made some groundbreaking discovery...

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Don't forget that these backyard inventors can "think outside the box" and "aren't constrained by the scientific thought process".

That is, after all, how birds fly. They don't know or care about gravity, so it doesn't affect them.

:angel:

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Don't forget that these backyard inventors can "think outside the box" and "aren't constrained by the scientific thought process".

That is, after all, how birds fly. They don't know or care about gravity, so it doesn't affect them.

:angel:

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I am not knocking backyard inventors, many of them have come up with some great inventions!

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

I am not knocking backyard inventors, many of them have come up with some great inventions!

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I'm not knocking general backyard inventors. Just those hell-bent on perpetual motion.:)

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Originally Posted by Dougal

I'm not knocking general backyard inventors. Just those hell-bent on perpetual motion.:)

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Indeed. The laws of physics/thermodynamics remain the same inside AND outside the box ;)

I'd like to find a way of running my car on $100 notes.

This would save me valuable time at the petrol station.

Perhaps even just have my engine electronically linked to my bank account so it just runs on available funds!!

I personally think that from now on we will have a mix of fuels to power the world as nothing is as good as what we have now,that is why we use it.I also think that people will loose money trying to save it as seen by the amount of people who have sold a car that uses 12ltrs per hundred and bought one that uses only 6ltrs and then brag about how much their saving.The fact they took out a loan and are paying far more in payments than they ever did in fuel doesn't come into it. Pat