Transporting Gas Cylinders

[VladTepes]

Went to get my BBQ gas cylinder filled up prior to our Fraser trip, and was astounded to be told that, in addition to the pre-existing rules:
http://dme.digdnn.com/zone_files/petroleum_pdf/info_cylindertransport.pdf

it has now been made illegal to transport >1 cylinder or a cylinder of >9kg in an enclose vehicle. OK for utes, but a problem for folks planning a long trip and only have a wagon !
Also its a MUST to have a screw plug in the outlet whenever the cylinder is not in use.

This means camping shops etc cannot fill more than one cylinder for you if you are putting them into an enclosed vehicle for the trip home. There's a big stick too.... The info sheet the lady at the camping shop showed me mentioned a $37,000 fine !!!!.

Does anyone know more about this as I can't find any updated info on the web.

Thanks

[Blknight.aus]

Roughly

the limit is now effectively not more than 9kg of gas not just one 9k bottle so you cant have a 6 and a 4.5 in the car at once even if empty....

the screw in bung is a gas tight bung and must be supplied to suit the gas bottle pre filling or they are not supposed to fill it unless they have stock in hand to seal the bottle after you fill it.

This does not include bottles fitted to the vehicle for use IE the gas bottle that feeds your 3 way fridge or the LPG tank that provides fuel for the engine. These are covered under a different set of regs.

exchange bottles are supposed to come with the bung installed or they aren't ment to swap them...


whats ment to happen and what happens....

[MacFamily]

Well didnt know about that Vlad thanks for the info.We always take at least a 9kg bottle camping with us depending on how long we are camping for, may have to reevaluate my options.

I know the OL sell gas bottle brakets put would rather avoid
LR Def Gas Bott Brkt Single - Dolium Pty Ltd (http://www.dolium.com.au/view/page/120/item/LRGBBS.html).

Ive always had a screw plug and also carry/store my bottle in a milk crate as i find it alot easier to pack/store in the back of the fender.

[Utemad]

I thought that was always the case in regards to what you can carry.

As for the bung I found that some places will charge you around $2.50 for it while others give it away with a fill.
The bungs work well though. I turned my bottle on with the bung in place and nothing happened. They're a good thing.

[alien]

This is way I go....
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/members-rides/16620d1246865903t-aliens-d2-pict0995.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/members-rides/16620d1246865903-aliens-d2-pict0995.jpg)
Bracket from a caravan yard with a steel strap under the roof rack mesh.@$35.00 all up with bolts ect..
Rubber on edge that rests on the bottle and it sits on timber also.
Longer hose on stove and I also block the outlet when traviling.It stays on the roof when camping:)


Some intersesting numbers;)
1 Litre of liquid = 270 Litres of gas....I think 7-11% with air to ignite.

So how many litres in a 9KG bottle?

[adonuff]

Hi Not to sure of the legalities but I used to have a 20ft bus set up as a motor-home It had a 351 V8 on LPG and had the biggest gas tank I've ever seen.

The stove and fridge and the hot water service ran streight off the LPG tank via a regulator and everything worked perfectly for many years.
This was installed prior to my purchasing it!

Depending on the room it would not be too far fetched to put a small LPG tank underneath and fit a proper LPG filler cap next to your existing filler cap It might even be safer than carrying a 9 kg bottle? Or if you already have LPG might even be simpler?

Think to do this leagally would require engineering report and consultation with insurance company but I have seen it work before. (proberly not legal)

The other thing to note is the vast cost differance, 40 to 50 cents per litre as compared to $25.00 - $30.00 for a 9kg Gas bottle.

I have had many discussions as to bottled gas is differant to LPG and have yet to find a definitive answer, LPG ran my stuff for 3 years and I lived in the bus full time up until the time I sold it.

This sounds too simple to do and I realise there will proberly a million miles of red tape and rules and regs involved all I can say is it worked for me for 3 years full time and it might be worth looking into.

Andrew

[d2dave]

Some intersesting numbers;)
1 Litre of liquid = 270 Litres of gas....I think 7-11% with air to ignite.

So how many litres in a 9KG bottle?


Approx17 litres in a 9kg bottle. The above statement is not entirely correct.

One part liquid = 270 parts vapour.

Vapour isn't measured in litres.

Dave.

[d2dave]

Hi Not to sure of the legalities but I used to have a 20ft bus set up as a motor-home It had a 351 V8 on LPG and had the biggest gas tank I've ever seen.

The stove and fridge and the hot water service ran streight off the LPG tank via a regulator and everything worked perfectly for many years.
This was installed prior to my purchasing it!

Depending on the room it would not be too far fetched to put a small LPG tank underneath and fit a proper LPG filler cap next to your existing filler cap It might even be safer than carrying a 9 kg bottle? Or if you already have LPG might even be simpler?

Think to do this leagally would require engineering report and consultation with insurance company but I have seen it work before. (proberly not legal)

The other thing to note is the vast cost differance, 40 to 50 cents per litre as compared to $25.00 - $30.00 for a 9kg Gas bottle.

I have had many discussions as to bottled gas is differant to LPG and have yet to find a definitive answer, LPG ran my stuff for 3 years and I lived in the bus full time up until the time I sold it.

This sounds too simple to do and I realise there will proberly a million miles of red tape and rules and regs involved all I can say is it worked for me for 3 years full time and it might be worth looking into.

Andrew

This is defiantly illegal. Most auto gas nowadays is a mixture of butane and propane, whereas bottled gas is pure propane.

Having said this it will still operate your appliances ok

Dave.

[adonuff]

This is defiantly illegal. Most auto gas nowadays is a mixture of butane and propane, whereas bottled gas is pure propane.

Having said this it will still operate your appliances ok

Dave.

Thanks Dave, I expected as much,

[alien]

Approx17 litres in a 9kg bottle. The above statement is not entirely correct.

One part liquid = 270 parts vapour.

Vapour isn't measured in litres.

Dave.

Thanks for the corection Dave:)

So a full bottle @ 4,590 parts of vapour if it all leaks out:eek:

[adonuff]

I was about to suggest swap over to a colman duel fuel stove But then I thought a few litres of petrol carried inside the vehicle is just as dangerous.

Used to be a Vol Fireman and as a rough guide most flammable liquids will expand 200-300 times when converted to a vapour and become far more deadly!

Many boats blow up big time every year due to fuel vapour, not sure what the safe answer would be, Is it leagal to carry fuel in a jerrycan on the rear of a vehicle??

I often worry about the 1 litre of coleman fuel I carry in the back of mine on a hot day.

Maybe Alien D2's gas bottle on the roof rack is a safer option??

Or a safe on board propane gas set up will be ARB's next good Idea???

Andrew

[d2dave]

Many boats blow up big time every year due to fuel vapour, not sure what the safe answer would be, Is it leagal to carry fuel in a jerrycan on the rear of a vehicle??
Andrew

I would reckon it is legal to carry fuel on the rear as early Pajero's used to have this as an option.

As for fuel v gas inside the vehicle, if you have a good container fuel would be ok imo. Unlike a gas bottle a fuel container does not need a vent for the fuel to escape in the event of expansion due to heat.

The reason boats explode is when fuel leaks in leaks down to the bottom of the hull where the engine sits. Stray spark from engine or alternator is a good ignition source. As most ski boats are open hulls it is often hard to smell the fuel leak, where as in a vehicle it is easily detected.

Dave.

[DeeJay]

This is defiantly illegal. Most auto gas nowadays is a mixture of butane and propane, whereas bottled gas is pure propane.

Having said this it will still operate your appliances ok

Dave.

Not for long though :(
The propane has a tendency to draw off out of autogas blend first. Then you start to get butane. Yellow flame, not much heat through a burner jetted for propane. Butane can refuse to vaporise if the cylinder has been drawing off for a while too.
Using Autograde for appliances is not recommended for a good reason.

You have never been allowed to carry LPG cyls in a passenger compartment ( In Vic) for the 23 years I've been in the industry.

And in Vic you are limited to 250 litres in a trailer/ute tray. That allows 2x 45kg bottles. Most country police would be aware of this reg too.

[Treads]

I always thought it was illegal (at least in NSW) to store gas cylinders or fuel containers inside the passenger compartment of a vehicle? :huh:

We carry our jerries and gas on the roofrack. The extra weight up there is negligible compared to the dangers of flammable vapours inside a vehicle.

[slug_burner]

Not for long though :(
The propane has a tendency to draw off out of autogas blend first. Then you start to get butane. Yellow flame, not much heat through a burner jetted for propane. Butane can refuse to vaporise if the cylinder has been drawing off for a while too.
Using Autograde for appliances is not recommended for a good reason.

You have never been allowed to carry LPG cyls in a passenger compartment ( In Vic) for the 23 years I've been in the industry.

And in Vic you are limited to 250 litres in a trailer/ute tray. That allows 2x 45kg bottles. Most country police would be aware of this reg too.

If that is the case then there are a lot of campers that are breaking the law every time they go camping. If it was that clear cut the police would only need to sit at a gas supply place on a long weekend and they would bag quite a few campers sticking their gas cylinder into the car.

So what happens in a vehicular system, doesn't the propane draw of first? How do you seperate two gases? is it a stratification issue? or is it a temperature and pressure differnce for liquid to gas conversion (boiling)?

[d2dave]

I always thought it was illegal (at least in NSW) to store gas cylinders or fuel containers inside the passenger compartment of a vehicle? :huh:

We carry our jerries and gas on the roofrack. The extra weight up there is negligible compared to the dangers of flammable vapours inside a vehicle.

If it is illegal to carry a 9 kg in a passenger vehicle how do so many people who own 4x4 wagons get their bbq gas to and from bunnings.

As for petrol, in summer when on holidays I take 4 20l jerrys to the servo to get boat fuel. On a few occasions the attendant has come out and told me to remove them from vehicle to fill as it is illegal to fill inside as they are not earthed.

If I was not allowed to carry them in the vehicle they would not let me fill them.

Dave.

[slug_burner]

Taken from the Energy Safe Victoria web site. Not a single statement about the transport of gas cylinders in passenger compartments.


Travelling with gas safely

Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) is easily transported and it is a popular energy source for cooking, heating, hot water, refrigeration and lighting for recreational use on boats, in caravans, in campervans and for camping. Specific installation requirements for installing cylinders on boats and in caravans or campervans are given in Australian Standard AS5601-2004 Gas Installations.

The cylinders used in boats, campervans and caravans are typically much smaller than those fixed outside the home and are generally only 9 kg capacity. These 9 kg and smaller cylinders popular in barbecues, camping stoves and lamps are usually filled by decanting LPG from a storage cylinder, at a service station or LPG supplier, but not from an Autogas bowser.

In campervans, caravan, marine and barbecue applications the moderately high pressure inside the cylinder is not applied directly to piping or to appliances. Instead a 'regulator' is used to control the pressure to a steady low level. Camping stoves and lamps, however, may be designed to operate directly on cylinder pressure and some use non-refillable LPG containers.


according to Code of Practice for The Safe Use of LPGas at Public Events in Victoria, Annex C a 9kg cylinder contains approx 22 litres of lpg.

[DeeJay]

I have been away this week & have dusted off this thread

"Quote"
So what happens in a vehicular system, doesn't the propane draw of first? How do you seperate two gases? is it a stratification issue? or is it a temperature and pressure differnce for liquid to gas conversion (boiling)?

I'm surprised no one pointed out vehicles have liquid withdrawal, so there is no vapour draw off.
I've used my download limit this month, & LP Gas Australia ( formally Aust LP Gas association) is too slow to open.
There should be reference to Passenger compartments & gas transport. Its a moving target, these Regs, with no National standard.
I'm not surprised Energysafe won't comment on it.

[d2dave]

Taken from the Energy Safe Victoria web site. Not a single statement about the transport of gas cylinders in passenger compartments.

according to Code of Practice for The Safe Use of LPGas at Public Events in Victoria, Annex C a 9kg cylinder contains approx 22 litres of lpg.

I have an Elgas truck come to my place and fills my bottles.

I asked the driver a while ago how much does a 45kg hold. I am pretty sure he said 88L(which is the 80% fill limit) I will recheck when he comes next but if this is correct this means a 9KG will hold 17.6 litres.

45KG divided by 9KG =5

88Litres divided by 5 =17.6L.

Dave.

[DeeJay]

Here are the Qld rules for gas cyl transport. Vic is a lot tougher, but I can't find the regs, I might look at work for them.

PETROLEUM AND GAS (PRODUCTION AND SAFETY) REGULATION 2004 - SCHEDULE 7

-- SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR TRANSPORTING CYLINDERS IN VEHICLES 1 Meaning of enclosed vehicle
(1) For this schedule, enclosed vehicle means any enclosed vehicle, whether or not--

(a) the vehicle is used for private or business purposes or is used for providing public transport; and
(b) 1 or more of the vehicle's windows are open. (2) However, a vehicle to which the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/touma1995434/), chapter 5A, applies, is not an enclosed vehicle.
2 Application of pt 2
This part applies in relation to cylinders for LPG.
3 Prohibition on carrying 30 litre cylinders in enclosed vehicles
A person must not carry a cylinder with a capacity of more than 30l in an enclosed vehicle.

Example of a cylinder that could not be carried in an enclosed vehicle--
a 13.5kg cylinder 4 Restriction on carrying 9kg cylinders in enclosed vehicles
(1) A person may carry a cylinder with a capacity of 8.5kg or more, but no more than 9kg, in an enclosed vehicle only for transporting the cylinder to or from a place where the cylinder is or was exchanged or filled.
(2) However, subsection (1) does not apply if the cylinder is transported in the vehicle in a sealed compartment that is vented to outside the vehicle.
5 No more than 2 cylinders may be carried at a time
A person must not carry more than 2 cylinders in an enclosed vehicle at a time.
6 Requirements for transporting cylinders in enclosed vehicles
A person who carries a cylinder in an enclosed vehicle must ensure--

(a) the cylinder is stored--

(i) securely in an upright position, in the boot of the vehicle if possible; and

(ii) in a way that avoids excessive exposure of the cylinder to heat or direct exposure to sunlight; and
(b) the service valve of the cylinder is tightly closed.

[d2dave]

I have an Elgas truck come to my place and fills my bottles.

I asked the driver a while ago how much does a 45kg hold. I am pretty sure he said 88L(which is the 80% fill limit) I will recheck when he comes next but if this is correct this means a 9KG will hold 17.6 litres.

45KG divided by 9KG =5

88Litres divided by 5 =17.6L.

Dave.

He came yesterday and confirmed what I said previously, a 45KG holds aprox 86 to 88 litres.

I also asked him if it was legal to carry bottled gas in a car and he said it was. He did not know the exact amount that can be carried but said that 9 KG is legal.

Dave.

[DeeJay]

He came yesterday and confirmed what I said previously, a 45KG holds aprox 86 to 88 litres.

I also asked him if it was legal to carry bottled gas in a car and he said it was. He did not know the exact amount that can be carried but said that 9 KG is legal.

Dave.

Technically you always have been able to carry in a boot, & I'm sure that's what he meant. But the original post was about wagons and you never have been able to carry cyls in them,unless in a vented compartment. Workcare is the overall authority, even for personal use.
Refer to section 1.2

http://www.plumbers.cepu.asn.au/content-ohs/faq_oxy_aceylene_equipment.pdf

And this includes 4x4 wagons... Always has.;)

I'm out....

[d2dave]

Section 1.2 comes under the heading of a document that says,

THIS DOCUMENT HAS BEEN COMPILED FROM THE MOST COMMON ASKED QUESTION TO WORKSAFE ON PORTABLE OXY-FUEL GAS CUTTING AND WELDING EQUIPMENT. IT HAS BEEN PUBLISHED TO ASSIST INDUSTRY BY CLARIFYING AND EXPLAINING WORKSAFES POSITION ON THESE COMMON QUESTIONS.

Firstly, the way I read this is that for work purposes, when lpg is been used as part of a welding kit rule 1.2 applies.

Second, Worksafe has nothing to do with what I do outside of my job in my own leisure time.

Dave.

[EchiDna]

Forgive me Dave, but safety doesn't go on holiday just because it is your leisure time.

If you want to mitigate the risk associated with a gas bottle venting into your car, don't travel with one inside the car. Law or not, the risk doesn't change because you aren't 'on the clock'.... I'd buy a diesel fueled stove anyday if there was a known good one around - is there?? if so, I wanna know about it so I can travel with only one fuel type on board not to mention the reduced risk...

[d2dave]

Forgive me Dave, but safety doesn't go on holiday just because it is your leisure time.

If you want to mitigate the risk associated with a gas bottle venting into your car, don't travel with one inside the car. Law or not, the risk doesn't change because you aren't 'on the clock'.... I'd buy a diesel fueled stove anyday if there was a known good one around - is there?? if so, I wanna know about it so I can travel with only one fuel type on board not to mention the reduced risk...

I agree the risk doesn't change with the clock. My point was that outside of work it is not a worksafe issue. Whether or not it is safe is not the argument. We are trying to establish legality of transporting gas when used for recreational, not work use.

Dave.

[adonuff]

Forgive me Dave, but safety doesn't go on holiday just because it is your leisure time.

If you want to mitigate the risk associated with a gas bottle venting into your car, don't travel with one inside the car. Law or not, the risk doesn't change because you aren't 'on the clock'.... I'd buy a diesel fueled stove anyday if there was a known good one around - is there?? if so, I wanna know about it so I can travel with only one fuel type on board not to mention the reduced risk...

I think dometic make a diesel fuelled stove, I have also seen them in a Kimberly camper which also had a diesel heater and HWS. They are very expensive but run forever on a small amount of fuel

Andrew