Matilda's jammed rear drum brakes

[Scallops]

Hello Folks,

Went for my debut drive in Matilda this arvo - had one fella actually flag me down to check the car out and to offer me an army jerry can for Matilda! :o Isn't that amazing? :) Anyhow, got as far as Walloon (from Ipswich) :( The rear brakes jammed on again - so the following piccies details my day out in the old girl.....

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/8606/dsc0002pj.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/i/dsc0002pj.jpg/)

At least it was a nice day....

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2948/dsc0003dy.jpg (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/dsc0003dy.jpg/)

Anyhow, once home I put 'Tilly up on the axle stands, removed the rear wheels, and took the drums off. This is what I found....and please correct me if I'm wrong here....

1) Both rear brakes - leading shoe doesn't have the post that faces the backing plate - the trailing shoes do.

2) So the trailing shoes have the top spring attached, and the spring goes to the post on the backing plate, but

3) The post that comes from the backing plate, to which the other end of the top spring attaches - is at the front of the drum - behind the leading shoe.

So - I conclude that some moron, in the past, has put a passenger side brake on the driver's side and visa - versa.

How does my theory sound to you guys?

At any rate, things are pretty good, considering....

YouTube- Original 4 Yorkshiremen Sketch

[JDNSW]

It definitely sounds as if the right and left brakes have been interchanged.

A question - when the brakes locked, did you try backing to release them?

John

[Scallops]

It definitely sounds as if the right and left brakes have been interchanged.

A question - when the brakes locked, did you try backing to release them?

John

Thanks so much John - I was almost too scared to post this thinking I didn't have a clue.

Yes - I reversed along the verge which did indeed release the brakes - enough to get her winched onto the tilt tray. :mad:

Now I know I'm onto it, I also am thinking I can just unbolt the entire drum from the axle, disconnect the brake cylinders, and swap them over.

Thanks again for your reply. :)

[Dinty]

G'day All, I'm going out for a short run in 'Chloe' tomorrow, hope this brake curse doen't follow me LOL, anyway the only MORON I can blame will be ME :p, hope you fix yours soon mate cheers and fingers XXXXXX'd 4 2 morrow, Dennis:angel::wasntme:

[zulu Delta 534]

That would mean that the backing / anchor plates are fitted to the axle housing on the wrong sides as the spring anchor pin is fitted to the anchor plate assembly, and not just simply the brake shoes back to front.
Did you back up straight away or was there an elapsed time before you reversed?
Dan, you also mentioned that the pedal was rock hard when the lock up occurred, which still reeks to me of a blockage in a hydraulic brake line not allowing fluid return.
Would be interested in hearing other's thoughts, armed with the full symptoms.
Regards
Glen

[JDNSW]

......
Dan, you also mentioned that the pedal was rock hard when the lock up occurred, which still reeks to me of a blockage in a hydraulic brake line not allowing fluid return.
Would be interested in hearing other's thoughts, armed with the full symptoms.
Regards
Glen

Glen,
If the leading shoe is locked against the drum, there will be no fluid returning as the shoe is not returning, so this would not follow. Also, with a blockage, reversing would not free it, although your comment about the possible delay might mask this.

Dan,

You will have to pull the halfaxles as well, but you probably realise that.

John

[Scallops]

Glen - that's what I mean - the backing plates - the entire setup - they are back to front. But to be perfectly accurate - the shoes themelves aren't back to front - looking at the brake as a single entity - it's setup right - just on the wrong side of the vehicle - perhaps a little hard to get across in the written form - I'll show you.

In regard to the actual incident - I backed up immediately - didn't do anything much - but did free them a little. Waited until the brakes had a chance to cool, or really, get cooler and did it again - they hadn't come off fully then either, but they were still a long way off cold - however, the brakes had released enough to be winched onto the tilt tray.

I think it was just that with cooling they contracted off the drums, as they had done since my drive from Buccan until this morning's test drive, Glen.

Maybe the flexible rear brake hose does needs replacing - but the fact remains - the entire brake setups are on the wrong side - something missed by us when we inspected it initially and by the mechanic who changed the entire drum housing last week. :eek: But, for the record - I don't think the hose is the issue at all - both rear brakes are on the wrong side of the vehicle - that is why they are jamming! Now - I'm sure you guys are fully aware of this, but when a trailing shoe is leading and the brake is applied, the shoes can rotate up and jam the drum; Seems consistent with what has happened.

John - didn't realise I'd need to pull the half axles - don't even know what they are, although I think I can guess/work out what you are saying. I think I'll be awaiting the expert help before proceeding.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Scallops]

Another question - is "pulling the half axles", as John has explained I'll need to do in order to swap the rear passenger side brake with the rear driver's side brake, something that can be easily done at home? Will it require any specialist tools, for example?

It's just that I was going to spend today cleaning up my 5 wheels - removing the paint and crud - in order to etch prime and paint them as per the rest of the vehicle. I was then going to take the wheels back to the HoHars, as that is where the paint gun and paint actually is, so if I go ahead with today's plan I'll be without my wheels for a time.

But if this job is going to require someone external, like MR, to become involved, I will need my wheels to get the vehicle onto a car trailer.

So - I have spanners and sockets - will simple everyday tools and some guidance get me through this, ie - is this going to be relatively easy?

[JDNSW]

Another question - is "pulling the half axles", as John has explained I'll need to do in order to swap the rear passenger side brake with the rear driver's side brake, something that can be easily done at home? Will it require any specialist tools, for example?

It's just that I was going to spend today cleaning up my 5 wheels - removing the paint and crud - in order to etch prime and paint them as per the rest of the vehicle. I was then going to take the wheels back to the HoHars, as that is where the paint gun and paint actually is, so if I go ahead with today's plan I'll be without my wheels for a time.

But if this job is going to require someone external, like MR, to become involved, I will need my wheels to get the vehicle onto a car trailer.

So - I have spanners and sockets - will simple everyday tools and some guidance get me through this, ie - is this going to be relatively easy?

Jack up rear on stands (front wheels chocked.
Remove rear wheels
Clamp brake hose to rear axle (special clamp available from tool shop)
Drain rear diff oil
Remove brake drums (keep theses with the brake they came off)
Remove brake shoes
Undo hydraulic line to wheel cylinder
Undo bolts holding backing plate and wheel bearing to axle housing
Remove half axle
Remove backing plate
Repeat for other side
Swap backing plate, brake shoes and springs, brake drum, to other side.
Reassemble in reverse order
Bleed brakes
Refill rear axle.

I don't think I have missed anything.

John

[numpty]

I'm not sure, but if you look in my S1 manual, which Glen has, it should show the assembly. I do have a parts manual as well, which will show it, but it is 1100 k's away at the moment.

[groucho]

They are semi floating axles you will need a press to remove the collars ect
Not quite an easy job. Better do the bearings and seals while they are apart...

[groucho]

Its not as simple as pulling the half shafts
The backing plate goes on first



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/1210.jpg

[groucho]

Backing plate first, spacer. bearing retainer, seal then the collar
And a press or something to get the collar off and to replace



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/1209.jpg

[JDNSW]

Absolutely right - I was forgetting the order of assembly!


You need a 20 tonne press to pull the bearing off and reassemble it. - specialist job. (but only that bit of it)

As Groucho says, best to replace the bearings while you are at it.

John

[solmanic]

..... OR... you could just drive everywhere in reverse :wasntme:

[Scallops]

Wow - isn't this a fun experience? Spent the entire day prepping my wheels for a repaint so I've just read the full story.

So - Anyone want a 1956 Series 1, great condition, features extremely rare back to front rear brakes? No? Really? No one interested? - OK, then can anyone possibly loan me a car trailer, so I can take the vehicle to MR and get it fixed properly? :angel: I'd better get this done prior to the divorce coming through - I really won't be able to afford it then. :(

[JDNSW]

I wonder who put them together the wrong way?

John

[Scallops]

I wonder who put them together the wrong way?

John

I suspect it was the last owner - he seemed to have a genius for doing anything and everything in a dodgy way.

But it has become academic.

Dave (Blknight.aus) has offered to sort this issue out for me. Let me just say, I am extremely humbled by the wonderful characters of the Land Rover community - Harry Ho Har, Glen Delta Zulu, Numpty, JDNSW, to name a few - have all given me so much help. Not to mention all who have offered me good advice in this and many other threads. So thank you all, I really am very humbled by your generosity, goodwill and friendship.

And to simply send a PM to Blacknight.aus and him instantly offer his support to fix this mess, without reservation, is just above and beyond.

Thank you - you are all worth your weight in Gold.

[Dinty]

G'day All, Scallops old mate, Land Rover camaraderie goes a lot further than the wave over the steering wheel LOL, and not wanting to hi-jack your thread/lament about 'Matilda', but I had 'Chloe' out today and she performed without a fault, the only downside to the day in the forest was we came across a hippie crowd of approx 100+ and vehicles etc, all set up in the bush with a huge tee-pee and other structures, belting out some wild noise (thats all it was) scaring the be-jeezus out of all the local wildlife, I did manage to snap a good pic of 'Chloe' and sneaked a pic of the hippies, thought it a good idea to get away a bit first LOL anyway good to see that you have your issue sorted cheers Dennis:angel:
ps I can't post pix either ,,.:(:(

[Blknight.aus]

So - Anyone want a 1956 Series 1, great condition, features extremely rare back to front rear brakes? No? Really? No one interested? - OK, then can anyone possibly loan me a car trailer, so I can take the vehicle to MR and get it fixed properly? :angel: I'd better get this done prior to the divorce coming through - I really won't be able to afford it then. :(

which are you more willing to give away, the wife or the landie?

send pics of both :)

[Scallops]

which are you more willing to give away, the wife or the landie?

send pics of both :)

:D Neither - there is a pic of both at the beginning of this thread! :D

[Blknight.aus]

must remember that I turn off loading images occasionally when Im browsing some of the less mature sites I visit.....

[Scallops]

Folks,

Just for the record - After I explained to Dave the setup of a Series 1 10 inch brake - ie (They are not dual leading type) - they are simple leading/trailing type with an anchor and spring at base, single cylinder at top pushing both shoes, leading shoe has spring attached which goes to post on backing plate behind trailing shoe, he has concluded that it won't make any difference (diddly squat to quote him verbatim :D) that the rear brakes are on the wrong side of the vehicle.

(My brakes are individually setup correctly - it's just that the driver's rear should be on the passenger side and visa versa)

Just to be sure, Dave is coming over to inspect them, but it looks like I can leave them as they are.

It appears the jamming issue lies elsewhere, with the leading theory being a blockage in the brake lines, as Glen has suggested all along.

[JDNSW]

I am not sure that I agree with Dave - there is a good reason why the pull off spring is applied only to the leading shoe. Note that on the 11" brakes with one leading/one trailing shoe, there is a spring between the cylinder ends of the shoes to pull the shoes back against the adjusters. With no pull off spring on the cylinder end of the leading shoe, it will always be rubbing lightly against the drum, and all it needs to lock is a very slight increase in friction. It is possible there is a contributing factor, such as slow return of the fluid. The test would be to get the brakes to lock up, and see if opening the bleeder releases them.

John

[Scallops]

I am not sure that I agree with Dave - there is a good reason why the pull off spring is applied only to the leading shoe. Note that on the 11" brakes with one leading/one trailing shoe, there is a spring between the cylinder ends of the shoes to pull the shoes back against the adjusters. With no pull off spring on the cylinder end of the leading shoe, it will always be rubbing lightly against the drum, and all it needs to lock is a very slight increase in friction. It is possible there is a contributing factor, such as slow return of the fluid. The test would be to get the brakes to lock up, and see if opening the bleeder releases them.

John

Thanks John - Dave initially wanted me to eliminate all other possibilities before he does the press job (if we were to switch them back), but then said it wouldn't matter anyway that they are around the wrong way. He might change his mind when he inspects them - I'll make him aware of your point here.

I think it's best to eliminate these other possible contributing factors first - then swap the entire brake back to the correct side, so everything is spot on.

[Scallops]

In order to get my rear brakes on the correct side, so that the leading shoe doesn't continue to jam, I have been looking here...

Axles + Driveline (http://seriesoneshop.com/contents/en-us/d18.html)

Is it the item I've listed below, about half way down the page, that I need to get hold of ? .....

AXLE HALFSHAFT BEARING
1954-58 PAIR (+A$109)

Anything else I should order to do this properly, eg....

COLLER - REAR AXLE
REAR AXLE RETAINING COLLER, ONE FITTED TO EACH REAR AXLE HALF SHAFT.

SUIT ALL MODELS 1948-57

I can't find any seals - do I need seals too?????? :confused:

[Col.Coleman]

Nope. That is a front bearing.

Where the collars are is where the hub seals and bearings are.

CC

[JDNSW]

Yes, there is a seal and possibly the sleeve it runs on may need replacing - sorry, I don't have a S1 parts book, just looking at the workshop manual (I have an old Autopress manual that covers both S1 & S2).

The reason for replacing these is simply that it is a pain to replace them due to the need to press the retaining collar on and off.

John

[groucho]

I think a ford rear bearing fits the series 1. I could be wrong though
I would steer clear of NOS rear bearings as the grease may be past it's best by now. I woud say the bearing is still current at the bearing places
The seals would be still current also. The collars that are made today are a
bit iffy on the fit also. You may have to try a few to get the right fit......

[Scallops]

OK guys, thanks for this info. So - maybe this stuff is what I need?

1) COLLER - REAR AXLE
REAR AXLE RETAINING COLLER, ONE FITTED TO EACH REAR AXLE HALF SHAFT.

SUIT ALL MODELS 1948-57

2) WHEEL BEARINGS - REAR
SUIT REAR AXLE ON ALL MODELS, TWO DIFFERENT TYPES WERE USED.

48-57 HAD A ONE PIECE "SEALED FOR LIFE" BEARING.

57-58 HAD A PAIR OF CUP AND CONE BEARINGS.

EACH "BEARING" INCLUDES BOTH THE CUP AND THE CONE.

Can anyone tell me - is the 48-57 listing for the "sealed for life" a typo, in that, the 2nd option above also states that the 1957 models had a pair of cup and cone bearings? I ask because my vehicle is 1957 everything on a 1955 chassis - which is why it's registered as a 1956!

I'm guessing I need the 2nd option, i.e, the pair of cup and cone bearings.

[groucho]

Yes the 48/57 sealed bearing is the one to use. If it is semi floating
The cup and cones are for fully floating........

[Scallops]

Great - thanks groucho - so I'll need in total....

2 X Rear collars @ $75/00 each (genuine)
2 X One piece sealed for life rear bearing @ $49.99 each

And I'll source seals locally as I can't see them listed?

PS - Glen - I will contact FWD motors and see if they can do this stuff too.

[groucho]

That will get ya going......

[russellrovers]

Great - thanks groucho - so I'll need in total....

2 X Rear collars @ $75/00 each (genuine)
2 X One piece sealed for life rear bearing @ $49.99 each

And I'll source seals locally as I can't see them listed?

PS - Glen - I will contact FWD motors and see if they can do this stuff too.
hi go to mrat redcliff they are very good for parts or to fit ask for wayne regards jim:mad::mad:

[Scallops]

hi go to mrat redcliff they are very good for parts or to fit ask for wayne regards jim:mad::mad:

Have I made you mad? :confused: I'd like to have a go at this myself - I have a friend who can do the hydraulic press bit for me - and the rest isn't too hard (I hope! :D). And I already use MR - my Puma is only serviced by them, but thanks for your reply.

[chazza]

Just a thought here Scallops - you may not need to press the bearing and collar off :)

An alternative method is to strike the end of the half-shaft vertically downwards onto a concrete floor (you can protect the floor with a piece of 5mm steel). After a few very solid blows the collar and bearing and backing plate should come free and slide down the shaft; this is the method Rover recommended to travellers if the bearing karked it in the middle of nowhere (they suggested a stone rather than concrete).

If the collar is in good condition it can be used again; if it is badly scored it is best to have a new one made with a 0.003" interference fit on the shaft. Of the two I bought for my car one was too loose to use, so I made my own.

To install the new collar heat it in boiling water and use the same technique in reverse to install the backing plate; bearing and collar.

Good luck with the new bearings I have heard that they are getting hard to find; I bought mine from FWD in Melbourne. If the old ones seem OK, keep them for emergency spares,

Cheers Charlie

[Scallops]

Just a thought here Scallops - you may not need to press the bearing and collar off :)

An alternative method is to strike the end of the half-shaft vertically downwards onto a concrete floor (you can protect the floor with a piece of 5mm steel). After a few very solid blows the collar and bearing and backing plate should come free and slide down the shaft; this is the method Rover recommended to travellers if the bearing karked it in the middle of nowhere (they suggested a stone rather than concrete).

If the collar is in good condition it can be used again; if it is badly scored it is best to have a new one made with a 0.003" interference fit on the shaft. Of the two I bought for my car one was too loose to use, so I made my own.

To install the new collar heat it in boiling water and use the same technique in reverse to install the backing plate; bearing and collar.

Good luck with the new bearings I have heard that they are getting hard to find; I bought mine from FWD in Melbourne. If the old ones seem OK, keep them for emergency spares,

Cheers Charlie

I reckon I want to do this once - and do it right. So I'll get the collars, bearings and seals and suck it up. But thanks for your thoughts. :)

[groucho]

I asked my bearing supplier about the rear bearings. The No on the bearing i have is SKF 5G 88128. He cant find a 5G listing but the 88128 No is still current for a Ford 9" axle bearing
. Now weather the 5G is a special L/R size i don't know. I will take the bearing in and get them to mic it up .Got me curious now, anyway the 88128
bearings are $44 bucks.......

[Scallops]

I asked my bearing supplier about the rear bearings. The No on the bearing i have is SKF 5G 88128. He cant find a 5G listing but the 88128 No is still current for a Ford 9" axle bearing
. Now weather the 5G is a special L/R size i don't know. I will take the bearing in and get them to mic it up .Got me curious now, anyway the 88128
bearings are $44 bucks.......

Thanks groucho - I sent Alex (at the Series 1 shop in Melbourne) an email telling him about my dilemma, and this is what he suggests....

Dan, it may be that someone has already installed new parts, and assembled it wrong, then not used it much as a result! So you may just need to swap things over, and fit new seals.

I have new seals, the other bits are all available. I suggest you press it all apart, (use a little heat on the collar) and reuse the original bits (except seals) if they are serviceable (the collars are meant to be reused if possible, new ones are supposed to be selectively fitted, so even if I send you a genuine part it may be a ill fit.)

Alex Ward

So Alex is suggesting just using new seals in the first instance. I'll pull the half axles, then get Blknight.aus to get them apart - we'll inspect the existing bearings and collars, and go forward from there. :)

[JDNSW]

Sounds like good advice - it is unlikely that it has done much works with the brakes swapped.

John

[Blknight.aus]

MK I's Thrown.... I've only looked at one side so based on that theres a short list of small problems, not least of which is that the brakes are on the wrong side. that said...

the brakes are one the wrong side, the return spring is setup to pull the trailing shoe off not the lead. (first thing on the fix list)

The shoes are generic bonded items that dont have a leading/trailing pad configuration. (but they are pinned as leading/trailing) (cant do anything about this one)

the locating screw is missing from the drum which means its not centralising properly when its installed. (last thing on my fix list)

The shoes are not retracting smoothly (could be line could be piston) (third thing on my fix list)

The lead in radius grind on the shoe pad doesnt look like its done correctly. (second thing on my fix list)

Fixing any one or two of these should solve the problem... Im going to shoot for all of them, so in the next couple of weeks (work time and other projects permitting) we're going to start with setting them up on the right sides.

[drifter]

Brilliant result (in the making). I'm watching carefully as I am about to do the brakes on mine. Anything I can avoid getting wrong is going to be a bonus so - keep the info flowing! :)

[Blknight.aus]

Make sure to remind Scallops to bring/hold the camera..

Im sick of having to wash up my hands enough to be able to use mine.

[dreamin']

Brilliant result (in the making). I'm watching carefully as I am about to do the brakes on mine. Anything I can avoid getting wrong is going to be a bonus so - keep the info flowing! :)


Me too.

We're all watching, Scallops

Keep it coming, with lots of your excellent pictures pleeease!

[Scallops]

The Nikon will be smokin" ;)

[groucho]

AS for the semi floating rear wheel bearings for the series
BSC Motion technology has 117 in stock
Yes they are the same as the early F100's still $44 bucks..............

[dreamin']

AS for the semi floating rear wheel bearings for the series
BSC Motion technology has 117 in stock
Yes they are the same as the early F100's still $44 bucks..............

Thanks groucho - do you have the part number?

[groucho]

Thanks groucho - do you have the part number?

SKF No 88128
We measured my sample just to make sure the were right..

[Scallops]

Well, so far so good - I started today by dropping the diff oil prior to pulling the half axles - got as far as realising the diff bolt wasn't a nut I could get a spanner or socket on - but instead had a recessed slit. :eek:

Another phone call to Glen :D and I was sorted - wacked a small spanner into it, then used a shifter to undo bolt - out came the clean diff oil.

Then removed rear brake lines from cylinders, took out bolts on axle going into backing plate - and hey presto....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/dsc0006ad.jpg/)

Half axles removed! :banana:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/dsc0008jd.jpg/)

And here they are - now I need to swap the entire brake assembly to the other half axle...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/dsc0007v.jpg/)

Matilda still looks cute even on axle stands.....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/dsc0009had.jpg/)

So - productive day in the shed today...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/dsc0010t.jpg/)

[drifter]

Good progress

[abaddonxi]

OMG she's not wearing any knickers.:eek:

[The ho har's]

OMG she's not wearing any knickers.:eek:


OMG trust you to say that now Dan is going to put a modesty skirt up:eek::D


Mrs hh:angel:

[digger]

Well, so far so good - I started today by dropping the diff oil prior to pulling the half axles - got as far as realising the diff bolt wasn't a nut I could get a spanner or socket on - but instead had a recessed slit. :eek:

Another phone call to Glen :D and I was sorted - wacked a small spanner into it, then used a shifter to undo bolt - out came the clean diff oil.

Then removed rear brake lines from cylinders, took out bolts on axle going into backing plate - and hey presto....

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4467/dsc0006ad.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/dsc0006ad.jpg/)

Half axles removed! :banana:

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/936/dsc0008jd.jpg (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/dsc0008jd.jpg/)

And here they are - now I need to swap the entire brake assembly to the other half axle...

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5316/dsc0007v.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/dsc0007v.jpg/)

Matilda still looks cute even on axle stands.....

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/198/dsc0009had.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/dsc0009had.jpg/)

So - productive day in the shed today...

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/9720/dsc0010t.jpg (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/dsc0010t.jpg/)

where did you get those mudflaps?????

[The ho har's]

where did you get those mudflaps?????
:Rolling::TakeABow:

to answer you question ...from England ...where else do you get land Rover patrs from:angel:


Mrs hh:angel:

[Scallops]

Mudflaps - imported from DUNSFOLD (http://www.dunsfold.com/)....

[Lost Landy]

"Mud Flaps" on a series 1 very weird :confused:

[Scallops]

"Mud Flaps" on a series 1 very weird :confused:

Not really, and each to their own - I have seen many examples of historic photos (in Legend), such as the 1950's English AA vehicles below - all with these mudflaps. Sure - they didn't rolll out of the factory with them on - but there again, doors were also an optional extra.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8822/mudflap1.jpg (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/mudflap1.jpg/)

And this one - being raced at Silverstone!

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/285/mudflap2.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/mudflap2.jpg/)

I do have a nice crank handle lug now though.

[Larry]

"Mud Flaps" on a series 1 very weird :confused:

Look normal to me too!:angel::p

[The ho har's]

Look normal to me too!:angel::p


Where was that photo taken...nice series 1 BTW....love the series fire trucks in the background:D


Mrs hh:angel:

[Larry]

Where was that photo taken...nice series 1 BTW....love the series fire trucks in the background:D


Mrs hh:angel:

Taken at the 2008 Sydney All British Day.

Thanks, I like my Series 1 too!:ohyes:

We have quite a selection of Land Rover fire vehicles in the club.;)

[Scallops]

Question Folks....

I pulled by brake master cylinder off today as it was leaking brake fluid - I'm not exactly sure, but I think the seals (which were all replaced recently) had been forced off, or at least had fluid forced past them, as a result of my brake jam issue.

The seals are all intact - except for a small perforation in the external ribbed boot that goes over the end of the master cylinder. I take it this boot is more a "keep dust and crud out jobby", rather than being a fluid seal, so would I be correct to think a minuscule perforation in this boot would still be serviceable?

[JDNSW]

Question Folks....

I pulled by brake master cylinder off today as it was leaking brake fluid - I'm not exactly sure, but I think the seals (which were all replaced recently) had been forced off, or at least had fluid forced past them, as a result of my brake jam issue.

The seals are all intact - except for a small perforation in the external ribbed boot that goes over the end of the master cylinder. I take it this boot is more a "keep dust and crud out jobby", rather than being a fluid seal, so would I be correct to think a minuscule perforation in this boot would still be serviceable?

Yes. In fact, sometimes these have a deliberate vent hole. Pack the inside with rubber grease.

John

[groucho]

Well........
Not overly impressed as FBJ brand was all they had.





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/151.jpg

[Scallops]

Well - Killer and I went around to Dave's this arvo to try to get this all sorted - but all we achieved was a build of Dave's press and to discover that one of my new rear wheel cylinders is already buggered. Actually, we also achieved a move of 3 Series engines, so at least Dave is happy.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/dsc0016yl.jpg/)

Anyhow - we then discovered that Dave's press was too small to do the job. So we tried the old drop method - of course, this didn't work either....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/dsc0020ua.jpg/)

So we then tried heating the collar before doing the drop method again - still no go....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/dsc0018lr.jpg/)

So final resort - Dave is taking axles to Amberley tomorrow to see if he can use the press there.

Alas, Matilda is destined to remain a garden ornament for some time longer, it seems. I must have Australia's most expensive non operational Series vehicle :mad: (And add to this - I can't work out how my bonnet spare wheel carrier works - plus, my Puma is going back again for more warranty work - what have I become? :( )

[Blknight.aus]

Jynxed,

I found the gas bottle for the propane torch... Its empty.

Assuming I get the axles sorted tomorrow do you want me to come round, drop them off and sort the spare wheel carrier?

[Scallops]

Jynxed,

I found the gas bottle for the propane torch... Its empty.

Assuming I get the axles sorted tomorrow do you want me to come round, drop them off and sort the spare wheel carrier?

If it's OK for you - dropping the half axles off would be grand - but I've sorted the spare wheel carrier! :D (Thanks to the great Series 1 online help!)

[Killer]

Well - Killer and I went around to Dave's this arvo to try to get this all sorted - but all we achieved was a build of Dave's press and to discover that one of my new rear wheel cylinders is already buggered. Actually, we also achieved a move of 3 Series engines, so at least Dave is happy.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7138/dsc0016yl.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/dsc0016yl.jpg/)

Anyhow - we then discovered that Dave's press was too small to do the job. So we tried the old drop method - of course, this didn't work either....

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9775/dsc0020ua.jpg (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/dsc0020ua.jpg/)

So we then tried heating the collar before doing the drop method again - still no go....

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3026/dsc0018lr.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/dsc0018lr.jpg/)

So final resort - Dave is taking axles to Amberley tomorrow to see if he can use the press there.

Alas, Matilda is destined to remain a garden ornament for some time longer, it seems. I must have Australia's most expensive non operational Series vehicle :mad: (And add to this - I can't work out how my bonnet spare wheel carrier works - plus, my Puma is going back again for more warranty work - what have I become? :( )

Dan, you forgot to include the shot of me lifting the 2.25 motor above my head.:D

Cheers, Mick.

[Blknight.aus]

Basically no joy from the RAAF base.

any press that was big enough to let me get the backing plate through safely had support plates that were to wide to fit between the backing plate and the flange.

I bodged a set of plates from the scrap bin but they gave out at about 8T of pressure, I could have pressed harder but didnt want to bend or break anything on the shafts.

went to 400 Degrees on the collar to have another go but got nowhere.

I stopped there, the axles not being mine, I didnt want to delve into the "unfriendly mechanics" book of tricks.

[Scallops]

Thanks for trying though, Dave. I appreciate you did what you could for me. :)

So - I'm back to square 1. Reckon I have Australia's most expensive, completely non operational, garden ornament Series vehicle. Old mate from Gympie certainly saw me coming. :mad: On top of this, Warren T Ford has also just been taken back to the dealer - what a heap of junk that thing is. One's clapped out - the other crapped out.

Hopefully someone is SE Qld has a press that can separate my blasted backing plates from the axles - new axles are $1700.00 :eek:. If this issue can't be resolved without that expense, I'm going to have to shelve the old girl, I'm afraid. :(

[chazza]

Have you tried grinding through the retaining collar and then pressing? This worked for me and only took about 10 tons to work.

I have heard of people getting the collar turned off in a lathe, which has the advantage of needing no pressing at all.

Don't give up yet, someone else near you will be able to help,

Cheers Charlie

[Blknight.aus]

Thats what the other bag of tricks is for... It's not done and dusted yet, Im just giving it the opportunity to surrender peaceably. Before I dropped them off, I took them to the quiet corner of the workshop and gave them both the very quiet warning that if they didn't play nice I'm going to break out the Seperational encouragement gear.

[groucho]

,Why don't you just split the collars with a chisel, do what you have to do
and get 2 collars and Re asemble. Save you all the a worry..............

[Scallops]

,Why don't you just split the collars with a chisel, do what you have to do
and get 2 collars and Re asemble. Save you all the a worry..............

Thanks groucho - that sounds like a good idea. I guess the reality is - I'm kind of out of my depth and comfort zone here. I'm not sure what to do next, really. Think I'll just leave it for now and have a think about my options with the vehicle.

[Killer]

Don't give up Dan, your almost there, these are only slight hiccups, she will be on the road soon and we won't be able to wipe the smile off your face.
If you need any help please don't hesitate to give me a yell, either with machining or making a press to give the bearings a shove, or just coming round to give you some moral support.

Cheers, Mick.

[Timj]

Definitely don't give up Dan, it will be worth it in the end. Unfortunately a 50 year old car is going to take maintenance. Still an awful lot cheaper than a new one though if you look at it that way :). When you get it running we will have to have another series get together just to celebrate :cool:.

Tim.

[dreamin']

Hang in there Scallops!

I'm about a year behind so relying on you to ask all the questions, sort these things out and put up lots of pictures so I can cruise along in your slipstream (though I may never be able to that on the road).

At least you blokes are still getting around in shorts - Tassie winter starts tomorrow and I'll need my work lamp for heat more than light!

Go well

[Blknight.aus]

If you want to, it looks like this saturday arvo/evening has a handfull of free hours, bring the shafts over and we can have a go at the cold chisel method.

[123rover50]

Whynot stick a series two axle under it . Keep you on the road till you get the other sorted out.
You may even leave it on, no one will notice the slightly wider track.

[Scallops]

I'm doing my best with all of this, but we only have 1 income and it's stretched - so I can't spend much more on Matilda at the moment. New bearings and collars will cost another $250.00. I also need diff oil, rubber grease, brake fluid etc just to get back to where I started.

I'm near to going the "store indefinitely" option with her now - until I can, at least, get a 2nd part time job and some extra cash to throw at her. I've come to this position because I don't know how to proceed - I'm no mechanic - the first thing I have ever done mechanically in my life, period, is remove these axles. I now have the axles, wheel cylinders, brake master cylinder, brake lines etc etc - all flapping around in the wind - all in bits. I understand this is all child's play mechanically for most of you, but it's brain surgery for me.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions - but a Series 2 axle is out - that's more cash for something I don't need. The chisel idea - sounds good - I dunno. Maybe that will wreck something else in the process - I dunno. Why won't a press work as it should? I dunno. The Austral mechanic that came over to get Warren T Ford said even if it were locktighted (as Dave suggested it might have been), heating it up as Dave did should have melted the locktight and then allowed it to all come apart - I dunno.

Maybe I need to leave it all and think about it - I dunno. I just dunno! :confused:

[Psimpson7]

Keep going Dan! It will be worth it! if I can do anything to help let me know.

How big does the press need to be to fit? I have a 20ton one.

[123rover50]

The first one I did I scored with my favourite mill tool. The angle grinder. Take it carefully down to the axle then whack it. Never had one I couldnt move.

[solmanic]

... I understand this is all child's play mechanically for most of you, but it's brain surgery for me.

Yeah, but then ask most of us about the definition and delineation of ore bodies and we're STUFFED!

Never give up, never surrender!

[Col.Coleman]

Ok. I'm sure someone else on here was preaching RTFM.:p

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1262957-post3.html

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my manual says:

To strip Operation E/12
1. Stand the axle shaft on its splined end and press down squarely on the brake anchor plate and Bearing housing flange, using the special annular press block, Part No. 242415 (Fig. E-1). A pressure of up to 20 tons will be required, and it may be neccessary to assist the operation with sharp blows on the bearing housing, using a brass drift. Remove the collar.

Nothing about a tinfoil press and hair dryer:D:D:D

Put it in a 20 ton press and flog it with a hammer. Or take it to MR like you were going to do first up.

CC

Puts on flame proof suit waiting for Mr Knight to unleash:twisted:

[Scallops]

Nothing about a tinfoil press and hair dryer:D:D:D

Put it in a 20 ton press and flog it with a hammer. Or take it to MR like you were going to do first up.



Thanks again everyone for your help, encouragement and advice - After some thinking and research, I've discovered that a 20 T press is in fact required, as the Colonel states above, and that MR Automotive have done this exact job before with their 20 T press- so maybe 'ol mate from Gympie has owned a few Series 1's. :D

So the half axles will be heading up to Redcliffe when I (or the Colonel's courier service) can get them there.

Dave - appreciate the offer to do the cold chisel job next weekend, but we might be able to salvage the collars and bearings this way.

[Col.Coleman]

You need a 20 tonne press to pull the bearing off and reassemble it. - specialist job. (but only that bit of it)


John

I just reminded you Dan. Jd's post was post #14 in this thread.

CC

[Scallops]

Quite right - thanks Colonel. I should have picked up on John's advice there myself. I hope the 400 degrees hasn't stuffed anything that would have otherwise been OK. At any rate, MR's press will do the trick.

[The ho har's]

Hang in there scallops.....it will be fine just give it time;)

[Blknight.aus]

Nothing about a tinfoil press and hair dryer:D:D:D


Thats going on the 120t press at work.

"The Tinfoil press"

[Larry]

Take a deep breath & count to ten Dan.:)
We all have moments like this & think is it really worth it? You only need to remember the enjoyment you had driving Matilda (I know it was only short:() & you'll have your answer.:ohyes:

If it takes a week or six months, so be it.
I had my 80" for nearly five years before getting it on the road. Like you, I'm no mechanic, so had to rely on the help of friends or wait till I had the $$ to pay to get things done.

You've put so much pride & effort in, it WILL be worth it in the end!:BigThumb:

Mark.

[Scallops]

I'm hearing everyone! :) And thank you all for taking the time to offer encouragement, I really appreciate the moral support. We'll get there. ;)

[Larry]

Just as well. I had visions of you trading Matilda in on a used Daewoo.:eek2:
Then you would know what mechanical trouble is!:p

[Scallops]

Just as well. I had visions of you trading Matilda in on a used Daewoo.:eek2:
Then you would know what mechanical trouble is!:p

Hey - I didn't get those lovely mudflaps for nuthin! :D

[drifter]

So... where's it at now? All done?

[Scallops]

Just got my half axles back - with new bearings, collars and seals. I now need 4 operational wheel cylinders - and maybe rear shoes - cos' the ones I got from a mechanic who road-worthied the vehicle are perhaps not right. Jeez - it's just the brakes - but without them my S1 will remain on axle stands in the carport where it's sat since it somehow managed to get registered.

[drifter]

I am glad to see it is still progressing.

The original 'problem' appeared to be that the rear brakes were on the wrong sides, if I recall.

That has been fixed?

[Scallops]

I am glad to see it is still progressing.

The original 'problem' appeared to be that the rear brakes were on the wrong sides, if I recall.

That has been fixed?

Yes - the backing plates are now on the right axles. But before I rush into reassembling everything, I want to make sure the motley collection of bits (cylinders, shoes and drums) that, perhaps all too quickly, have been slapped on, are going to work properly!

[Blknight.aus]

Yes - the backing plates are now on the right axles. But before I rush into reassembling everything, I want to make sure the motley collection of bits (cylinders, shoes and drums) that, perhaps all too quickly, have been slapped on, are going to work properly!

you dont have to have new cylinder sets, you should be able to get away with a quick lapping job by hand with some very fine wet and dry + some new seals.

[Scallops]

you dont have to have new cylinder sets, you should be able to get away with a quick lapping job by hand with some very fine wet and dry + some new seals.

That cylinder that we found was "sticky" - took it to Baileys Clutch and Brake - they said it's cactus. They used some wet and dry to hone it - but reckon there is damage on middle of cylinder - roughness - as they put it, that wouldn't be removed by honing.

Anyhow - the wheel cylinders we have on the front brakes are wrong - they are the smaller ones - I'll move them to the back wheels where they should be. I now need the correct larger ones for the front.

Jeez - drama after drama - that's LR ownership :D

[The ho har's]

You are coming next sunday aren't you?:)

Mrs hh:angel:

[Scallops]

You are coming next sunday aren't you?:)

Mrs hh:angel:

Well no - my car is in bits. :(

[The ho har's]

Well no - my car is in bits. :(

A 110 is fine...but if you must a Mazda is good as well:(

you need to come on a picnic day with good friends:D

Mrs hh:angel:

[Timj]

Ok Dan, help is at hand. I have two brand new front wheel cylinders here and a few second hand ones that could perhaps have a kit put in them. Send me a PM or give me a call and we can sort something out to get you out next Sunday :).

Tim.

[Blknight.aus]

I suspect that the automotive gods are trying to tell you something... like say...

Start walking pal or buy another landy...

the secret number is 3 with 3 rovers you can usually keep one on the road.

(or have enough spare parts to make a 3rd one.

[Col.Coleman]

I've been trying. From picking up and dropping off his axles, providing moral support and even offering to come over tomorrow and finish it all off.

The problem is, Dan somehow got himself whooping cough and is now in quarantine until next week. I narrowly dodged that bullet when I saw him last Monday.

You need a cup of cement Dan, and wrangle that whip out of Kat Womans hand.:p You can grab the pussy the next weekend:D

CC

[The ho har's]

OH we have another recruit for the trip harry and Harry jnr in the S2A

Mrs HH:angel:

[digger]

Scallops,

mate, I can't stand by and listen to this anymore!

Its just so hard to see how you are being treated. but I have a solution mate..



I'll be there next week with a trailer and I'll get that nasty nasty damn car out of your way, I'll take it away where it can't hurt you anymore..


Darkside and I will take on the burden laid on by the nasty "Solihull Siren" that you've found yourself imprisoned by...




DARKY.... ROAD TRIP....GET THE ENGEL...WE'LL NEED THE OBVIOUS ESSENTIAL SUPPLIES, (COOPERS, FARMERS UNION ICED COFFEE, FRITZ) AND WE'LL WING THE REST!!!




Digger (part time land rover exorcist and series 1 whisperer!)

[The ho har's]

Scallops,

mate, I can't stand by and listen to this anymore!

Its just so hard to see how you are being treated. but I have a solution mate..



I'll be there next week with a trailer and I'll get that nasty nasty damn car out of your way, I'll take it away where it can't hurt you anymore..


Darkside and I will take on the burden laid on by the nasty "Solihull Siren" that you've found yourself imprisoned by...




DARKY.... ROAD TRIP....GET THE ENGEL...WE'LL NEED THE OBVIOUS ESSENTIAL SUPPLIES, (COOPERS, FARMERS UNION ICED COFFEE, FRITZ) AND WE'LL WING THE REST!!!




Digger (part time land rover exorcist and series 1 whisperer!)


OHHHH Digger if anyone has first dibs on matilda it would have to be us:o:D;):wasntme:

Dan you will get there

Mrs hh:angel:

[solmanic]

OHHHH Digger if anyone has first dibs on matilda it would have to be us:o:D;)

...Hang on... I'm sure I can make space here somewhere...

[digger]

OHHHH Digger if anyone has first dibs on matilda it would have to be us:o:D;):wasntme:

Dan you will get there

Mrs hh:angel:

I have no idea why that would be!?
:o:p:eek::twisted::angel:



:wasntme: i sent that earlier message on behalf of darkside!

(he may claim that he wasn't involved.....he's bad like that!:angel:)

[Blknight.aus]

pfft you guys have no chance....

I could have it away and secured in a place you'd never be able to get it from in less time than it would take you to wander around his car port bemused saying "well whered that go then"

[The ho har's]

pfft you guys have no chance....

I could have it away and secured in a place you'd never be able to get it from in less time than it would take you to wander around his car port bemused saying "well whered that go then"

In your dreams:angel:

Mrs hh:angel:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

My God Dan you lead a full and interesting life!!

I wonder what it will be next week,,,:eek:

[The ho har's]

My God Dan you lead a full and interesting life!!

I wonder what it will be next week,,,:eek:

Stop scoring post counts:o:D:wasntme:

Mrs hh:angel:

[The ho har's]

And yes scallops after our conversation tonight we have it all under control;):o:D;)

Mrs hh:angel:

[Blknight.aus]

My God Dan you lead a full and interesting life!!

I wonder what it will be next week,,,:eek:

howsabout


ok, no more joking around with this bad luck run, which one of you buggers stole matilda?:( :nazilock:

[RobHay]

I suspect it was the last owner - he seemed to have a genius for doing anything and everything in a dodgy way.

But it has become academic.

Dave (Blknight.aus) has offered to sort this issue out for me. Let me just say, I am extremely humbled by the wonderful characters of the Land Rover community - Harry Ho Har, Glen Delta Zulu, Numpty, JDNSW, to name a few - have all given me so much help. Not to mention all who have offered me good advice in this and many other threads. So thank you all, I really am very humbled by your generosity, goodwill and friendship.

And to simply send a PM to Blacknight.aus and him instantly offer his support to fix this mess, without reservation, is just above and beyond.

Thank you - you are all worth your weight in Gold.



......and if you ask really really humbley, and slip a carton of Jimmy and cola into his unsuspecting hands......Dave just might.....repeat...might .....let you play the apprentice to his Mechanical Engineering.:angel:

[digger]

howsabout



ok, no more joking around with this bad luck run, which one of you buggers stole matilda?


me! :D....:cool:.....:p

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Stop scoring post counts:o:D:wasntme:

Mrs hh:angel:


In your dreams:angel:

Mrs hh:angel:

Hello pot!

[Blknight.aus]

this is kettle.


Black over.

[Scallops]

Arhhh - my post is turning into a "Stars".....:eek:

[abaddonxi]

Hey Dan.

[solmanic]

Arhhh - my post is turning into a "Stars".....:eek:

You think???

[solmanic]

BTW Dan, I noticed a stray "r" in that "Arhh"... does this mean we're coming up to international "talk like a pirate" day?

[digger]

BTW Dan, I noticed a stray "r" in that "Arhh"... does this mean we're coming up to international "talk like a pirate" day?

speaking of that....


do you know why pirates are funny?




because they "Arhhh"!!!!


:D:D:D ahem...(call me arthur) sometimes I just think funny things..:D:D

[Scallops]

Some big progress this weekend - half axles back in - all 4 wheels now have the correct wheel cylinders, new springs all around - so, all wheels now have operational drum brakes all ready to go, new flex brake lines fitted, brake master cylinder put back together and installed, new radiator hose fitted, rear diff full of gear oil....:woot:

Just need to bleed the brakes and set the snail cams. Killer and I tried to bleed the brakes - no fluid coming through to wheel cylinders. Pulled the input line to BMC off - fluid going in. Took output line off BMC - fluid going out after a few pumps of the brake pedal. Put both lines back - same result - no bleed happen' at the wheel cylinders :mad:

Luckily - Glen rang me before I rolled it (and myself) off a cliff, to advise that the BMC will need to be singularly bled first - probably a 2 man job - hopefully get it done next Friday - so lil' old Matilda is very close now... :BigThumb:

Thanks for your help this weekend, Mick - you da Man! :cool:

[numpty]

Will it be ready for Sunday?;)

[The ho har's]

Will it be ready for Sunday?;)


So Matilda can get close up and personel with Leon:eek::D:D

what a splendid idea:D:D:D

Mrs hh:angel:

[Scallops]

Will it be ready for Sunday?;)

Yes - if someone can help me bleed the Brake Master cylinder and lines - Killer and I tried to get the brakes bled last weekend, but apparently I need to bleed the BMC separately first. Need help.


So Matilda can get close up and personel with Leon:eek::D:D

what a splendid idea:D:D:D

Mrs hh:angel:

I hope so - I'm having Friday off work so if anyone is available to help with the above - yes - Matilda should then be on the road. :) I did discuss this with Glen - but I don't know when he is off to NSW.

[The ho har's]

hohar has LOTS to do here but if you are desparete he will see what he can do...zara is off the road ATM and has to be fixed before Sunday or she will not be there;)


Mrs hh:angel:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Need help.


I can get there saturday???

[abaddonxi]

I can get there saturday???

As long as it's not raining.:D

[Scallops]

hohar has LOTS to do here but if you are desparete he will see what he can do...zara is off the road ATM and has to be fixed before Sunday or she will not be there;)


Mrs hh:angel:




I can get there saturday???


As long as it's not raining.:D

3 offers - how good is that? :D You folks are the best! But don't sweat it guys - I could walk to the gig on Sunday from my place if needed! ;) :p Matilda has sat on axle stands for what, 3 months now - so a few more weeks ain't gonna hurt (much).

[Killer]

3 offers - how good is that? :D You folks are the best! But don't sweat it guys - I could walk to the gig on Sunday from my place if needed! ;) :p Matilda has sat on axle stands for what, 3 months now - so a few more weeks ain't gonna hurt (much).

I hate to dampen your parade Dan, but I think Simon was referring to Pedro's leaking alpine windows.:o
I am afraid my time is booked out this weekend, maybe you can con Kat and Rillis into helping you, instead of going bike riding.:wasntme:

Cheers, Mick.

[Scallops]

I hate to dampen your parade Dan, but I think Simon was referring to Pedro's leaking alpine windows.:o
I am afraid my time is booked out this weekend, maybe you can con Kat and Rillis into helping you, instead of going bike riding.:wasntme:

Cheers, Mick.

I knew it was too good to be true! :( :p

Rillis and Kat??? I'm not baking a cake here! :wasntme:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Typical,,
Simon having a giggle at my expense:D

[solmanic]

I'm free on Sunday to come and point at stuff whilst making knowledgeable sounding but useless remarks. And while I can't get my soft little pillows of hands dirty I may be able to help retrieve the "dammit" tool for you from time to time.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I am quite good at getting the beers--:whistling:

[Scallops]

I'm free on Sunday to come and point at stuff whilst making knowledgeable sounding but useless remarks. And while I can't get my soft little pillows of hands dirty I may be able to help retrieve the "dammit" tool for you from time to time.


I am quite good at getting the beers--:whistling:

:D We can't have 3 muppets doing this! That job is mine! :p

How 'bout you fellas just come over anyway and we stick at what we're good at - drinking beer? :D

[numpty]

And here I am on the Northside, willing and able, but sans vehicle.:( Hope you can get something worked out as Leon has been looking forward to the meet.

[The ho har's]

"zara" is fixed and we are on our way...we will have "matilda" running around Ippy this arvo;):D

Mrs hh:angel:

[Killer]

"zara" is fixed and we are on our way...we will have "matilda" running around Ippy this arvo;):D

Mrs hh:angel:

WoooooooooooHoooooooooooo:):):):):):)

Cheers, Mick.

[Scallops]

IT's Done! :twobeers: Matilda is going like a train! All right, YeeHarrrr!!!! :D

I know the rules - pics in my new thread!