Puma Transfer Case wear metals high

[Brid]

My 2007 Puma transfer case has always run hot...much hotter that the 2005 i had. So as I have only 1000kms of warranty left I had the oil analysed. After 40,000kms, the oil was dirty to look at too. The lab results indicated exceptionally high silicon, copper and tin. High readings were also noted for iron, aluminium and chrome. Apart from this there were some large visible magnetic wear metals several around 2.5mm long.

In another thread I had mentioned the severe (and I do mean severe) driveline clatter I get with centre diff locked during gear changes (when a bit of wind up takes place). I don't know if the high wear factor is a result of this or whatever is causing the high running temperature. I changed to a 75W140 synthetic on dropping the dirty oil, and on my monthly 2000km trip to Central Qld the temperature was a lot cooler, although the ambients were cooler too.

Has anyone else had similar transfer case issues? If so, it could be handy information regarding my slim remaining warranty.
Regards

Brid

[Brid]

Just as a further update, I spoke with Hastings Deering lab today regarding the wear metals, and these are their comments...

1. Extremely high copper & tin reflect wear to bronze thrust washers or bushes
2. High iron is from wear on gear teeth
3. Case hardening on bearings has started to wear off (chrome)
4. Extraneous contaminants are not significant. So dust entry is not the problem
5. Low oil viscosity indicates thermal degradation of the oil. That is consistent with my observations of the transfer running too hot, from brand new.
6. The visible wear metals of 2-3mm size are unacceptable and indicate a problem.

The point mentioning all this is that if you have a Puma, and the floor and seat box panels get pretty hot on a long run, it's possible you may have a problem similar to mine.

At any rate, it's worth checking the quality of the transfer case oil at every service. The oil change period is down for 80,000kms, which is too long for me to feel comfortable with. And this one was bad at 40,000km on the oil. )The lab tech has found that for his 80 Series cruiser, 20,000km in optimal for the transfer case.)

[one_iota]

I suppose now the challenge will be to convince Land Rover that this is outside the "normal range" (a phrase I've heard a couple of times) so that :

1. Your transfer case is fixed and
2. The recommended service interval is shortened for all vehicles. After all the engine oil change interval for Australian Defenders has been reduced from 20k to (in my case 12k).

I have noticed on long runs that the front seat box gets hot but I've put that down to the exhaust location.

[rick130]

Could you post up your oil brand and type, and wear metal numbers please ?
Oh, and the lab doing the testing (or just PM me if you want to ;) )


4. Extraneous contaminants are not significant. So dust entry is not the problemHmm, silicon may be an anti-foamant in the oil, but is usually more than likely straight out dirt/dust, and if so, this would be where your high wear metals are coming from.
The only way to know is test a virgin sample and compare to your test results.
FWIW I feel 80,000km is far too far, even on premium lubes for what most vehicles are asked to do as the sump capacity of the t/case is limited.
It could also be dirty oil, it wouldn't be the first time either ;)

Check the breather to make sure it hasn't come adrift and eliminate it s a source of dirt.

FWIW I've found the labs less than ideal at interpreting results, they are good for raw data, but that's about it, and even then they can cock up.

[B92 8NW]

Have you used any of your company's anti-wear additives in it?

[PAT303]

One thing to remember is you only have 40K on it so parts are wearing in so all the oil will show metal.When you say the driveline is chattering with the diff locked are you on a hard surface when that happens?,4wd's will protest when they are driven in 4wd when they don't need to be. Pat

[PAT303]

Do Puma's still run the LT230 T/C?. Pat

[one_iota]

This is the description of the TC from the workshop manual:

Links and Downloads Manager - Australian Land Rover Owners (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=84)

I have assumed that it is the LT 230 but others may have a more informed view. I gave away my Rave with the Disco so can't compare.

[rick130]

[snip]
I changed to a 75W140 synthetic on dropping the dirty oil, and on my monthly 2000km trip to Central Qld the temperature was a lot cooler, although the ambients were cooler too.

[snip]

Brid

An xW-140 should actually run hotter than decent synthetic xW-90, just simple drag.

While an xW-140 would be ok in summer here, if you want to split the difference use an xW-110 (although not too many blenders blend this grade yet) but a good synthetic 75W-90 should run the coolest of all. (and proven in both racing and trucking)

[dullbird]

as far as I was aware the LT230 was adapted to fit the new gearbox

[Brid]

Thanks for everyone's comments...
One Iota...
I think in my case the heat is from the transfer rather than the exhaust. So far, I've found LR will readily rectify any problem, no matter how big, if they can confirm the problem, rather than dodge the issue. MR Automotive tell me the transfer case is the same as the previous model, so I guess it is.

Rick 130...
The oil was Bimrose 75W90, which I believe to be higher end quality, so should have more than met required specs. The oil lab tells me that if dust was the source of Silicon, aluminium would be approximately TWICE the Si reading. As you see below, Al is a mere 1/9th of Si, so they conclude gasket maker is the prime source of Si.

Cu 949; Fe 353; Cr 3; Pb 1; Al 27; Si 251; Sn 54

Yes sometimes lab reports don't show much light on things. It doesn't tell you how much visible, large iron particles are present, and in this case that was significant. But it did raise alarm bells indicating a problem, which is supported by the magnet plug debris. An independent LR mechanic did not pick up the problem, during a routine inspection, so the lab analysis was an excellent step in this case.

B92 8NW...
Yes, I was using our AW10 Antiwear, and it ran a little cooler than before. I could hold my hand on the seat box, although still hot. Initially I could not hold it there for more than 8-10 secs! Unfortunately it won't necessarily fix mechanical problems.

PAT 303...
Actually i have 99,000kms on the vehicle and only 40,000km on this oil, so it would have no run in wear metals in that oil. Occasionally the centre diff lock is activated when firm ground intersects loose stuff, and often gear changes are needed then. That's exactly when the severe driveline clatter takes place...it shouldn't be as violent as it is.

Rick 130...
Transfer running hot: Yeah I think viscosity choice is very much a balance between keeping mechanical friction, or metal to metal wear as low as possible, while also minimizing fluid friction or churning, which is more a problem with the higher viscosity oils. So you need a viscosity that is not too low to cause increased wear, and not too high to churn. At this stage, it appears that the 75W140 has it running cooler than before. A 75W110 may well be a good option as you suggest, but my main goal at this stage is to rectify the cause of the problem under the last 800kms of warranty left.

Cheers
Brid

[rick130]

[snip]
The oil lab tells me that if dust was the source of Silicon, aluminium would be approximately TWICE the Si reading. As you see below, Al is a mere 1/9th of Si, so they conclude gasket maker is the prime source of Si.

Cu 949; Fe 353; Cr 3; Pb 1; Al 27; Si 251; Sn 54

Yes sometimes lab reports don't show much light on things. It doesn't tell you how much visible, large iron particles are present, and in this case that was significant. But it did raise alarm bells indicating a problem, which is supported by the magnet plug debris. [snip]

Cheers
Brid


Brid, the problem with analysis as you have found out is that the spectrograph only shows particles within a certain size range in a specific sample size, but a 'PQ Index' shows all contaminants regardless of size and is a very handy number to see when things are really going pear shaped.
A high PQ Index reading can indicate if a component is self destructing, something that may be missed in a slightly higher than normal Fe number for example.

Re the silicon, how long has it been since the last oil change and how long since any gaskets were replaced, or was spray on Hylomar used on the fill and drain plugs ?
Or is it still the original fill ? (which would explain the high silicon from using RTV as gaskets from the factory)

Without knowing too much about gearbox analysis, the chrome and lead look acceptable, (re the lead, you'd be amazed at what numbers a virgin analysis shows up at times :lol2: ) but the iron and copper are insane, as is the silicon.

BTW, do you have a TDS of that oil and its copper corrosion number ? (if a GL-5 you don't want it any higher than 1b )
If unbuffered reactive sulphur is used in the add package that could explain the high copper, leaching the copper from the bronze shims, etc.

I also wasn't joking when i said about contaminated oil.
some blenders can be less than clean when filling or when changing over tanks and can contaminate the oil.
I've known of one very expensive boutique oil that was giving less than stellar results and all the indicators pointed to poor filtration or some sort of dirt ingress.
After the client insisting everything was up to par the analyst told them to swap the oil for a Valvoline blend and get a VOA done on a small sample of their previous oil.
It was contaminated.
The UOA's looked 100% better than previous tests with the Valvoline oil.
The new, expensive synthetic oil was wearing out the engine as someone wasn't clean enough when filling the drums during the automated filling at wherever the oil was bottled.

[Brid]

G'day Rick130

Thanks for those comments. There is no silicon carry over as the oil's only done 40,000kms. I don't have the oil specs, so can't shed light on Cu corrosion factor, etc.

i guess a PQ Index would be of interest too, however, although I am sure I have problems, I don't think they are that advanced to fail in the short term...it is longer term I'm concerned with...when I don't have manufacturer's warranty.

As you say the Cr is low, although the interpretor felt it was early bearing wear. Cu and Fe are the real concern, and seem to confirm abnormal wear...which was the point of my exercise, so from that aspect, I feel that the analysis was worthwhile.

Are you of the opinion that the spectro analysis is of no use? Just not sure if that is your thoughts, or no use in isolation?

I have found it very useful on several occasions (eg identified early dust entry into newly fitted 4BD1, and coolant leak in same (just had to retension head to rectify), and also confirming no problems in others.

i might ask for PQ on next occasion though as you suggest.

Regards

Brid

[rick130]

Brid, I always get PQ done too in concert with the normal tests, it just paints a fuller picture. eg. when you have a valve stem cap failure in a 300Tdi the Fe isn't catastrophic but your PQ goes through the roof.

Re the silicon, I'm no expert and not an analyst but I'd re-test in 5,000km with fresh oil (different brand too, stuff going for trend) in the t/case (I know this is outside warranty so a possible PITA re a future claim) and look at your numbers again.
That silicon is not coming from gaskets, not after this long, and AFAIK no one uses anywhere near that amount for anti-foaming (IIRC, try around 15PPM) the only place it can come from is externally.
Add sodium to the test schedule too, the labs only look at it as an indicator for coolant, but, if that's high alongside your silicon it's dirt ingress.

In the meantime really give everything a good going over to see if the breather is snapped or broken on the t/case, etc.
I'd be taking it up with Land Rover straight away too, those numbers are major, major wear. It's lunching itself pretty quickly.

[rick130]

oh, forgot to add I've run a mix of 75W-90 and 80W-140 for years too.
Gears are funny things, they run cooler with a lighter fluid but you nearly always get better protection the heavier you go.
80W-140 is good in a Salisbury IMO too. They run hot and if towing, it should help a fair bit. The Rover diffs run a lot cooler.

[Brid]

Na was done too, and it was minor..haven't got thereport at hand, but I think it was 1. And it has done a little beach work on that oil, so if there was extraneous contamination, Na should have been a little higher..although it wasn't a lot of beach work.

I'll have a good chance tomorrow to check out breathers all round. There's no sigh of oil weeps from above so I think the selector area shouldn't be an entry point for dust.

My gut tells me that it is a build issue, something internal not assembled right, too much point loading somewhere..that sort of thing...mainly because it has always run a lot hotter than my 2005 Defender.

[Brid]

I thought I should provide an update on the transfer case wear metals problem. I have now done a further 43,000kms on the 75W140 GL5 synthetic oil. The oil is still as bright as new, and no evidence of visible wear metals or oil contamination. I did an electrolite test comparing the oil with an unused sample, and it suggested no significant wear metals as well, so at this stage I haven't sent a sample off to the lab for analysis.

This leaves me wondering about the cause of the severe wear that was occurring before I changed to the 75W140 oil...

Was the oil not up to the job?

Or...Was it a one off incident? (I know that I did the Simpson on the oil service period that had the wear metals & that on numerous occasions centre diff lock slipped out for several sand dunes, until I realized. XS centre diff spinning could cause it??)

Or...The 75W140 offers exceptional severe duty protection, but could it stop that wear in its tracks?

Anyone had similar experiences with the transfer case or thoughts on the matter?

Brid

[rick130]

Thanks for the heads up mate.

Just a FWIW, the bloke that used to do my analysis had a customer using a premium boutique syn engine oil that was showing high (really high) wear metals and evidence of dirt ingress.

The customer went right through everything, couldn't locate the source of dirt so the oil bloke suggested some run of the mill but good quaity Valvoline xW-40 engine oil as a control.

Problem solved.

The customer had a small amount of the original oil and had it tested.
Contaminated at bottling. (I suspect it was bottled here, imported in bulk)

It's also possible for an oil to have the wrong add pack added, or no additive pack too at a blending plant.

With humans involved anything can happen.

[jc109]

Thanks for the heads-up on this issue. I only have about 7000km on mine so a long way to go yet, but I'm a little concerned about some serious noise I'm hearing in my transfer case too. Much like you I get serious clunking at gear changes with the centre diff engaged (and this is on the soft stuff), and it even disengages without notice at times too, with a resounding clank when it does. I'm a little nervous about what this might end up doing. I'll watch this thread with interest.

[stig0000]

every puma i have driven, the seat box and rear floor gets very hot wile driving after about 30mins or so,, all so, your oil sample, do you have a sample of the previous oil change from new or from another car to compare,,

as we had a 2010 puma blow a engine with 12k on the clock, (yes 12.000km) the customer demand a oil sample be taken and was sent off to castrol test lab, pretty much they say this sample means nothing with out another control and about 20 other samples to put side buy side, to find a avg and go from there, ;) just a thort,

[Tomo]

I have a puma now with 40K on the clock. I thought the $800 40K service woukd have changed gearbox and Tcase and diffs oils but no it does not.
Manual gbox oil is changed at 200K:eek:
Tcase and diff oil changed at 80K:eek:

My seat box is also very hot and also not sure if exhaust or gb or tcase causing heat. Intesingly I believe dm digital (also lives in tropics) who regularly tows a 1.5T camper trailer reports no heat probs at seat box.....
I think he has changed this oils... hopefully he will chime in......

I want to change my driveline oils soon

Should I run synthetic 75/140 GL5 in my gb and Tcase, since living in tropics?
What about diffs? run what is is stated in manual? 80/90 hypoid from memory...

sorry to hyjack thread......

[Loubrey]

Just a quick comment about the hot seat box. This seems to vary from vehicle to vehicle. I'm on my 5th Defender over the years and one of my 90's (1996 300Tdi) would get so hot that your leg would look sunburned and the handbrake would be untouchable on the metal parts. The transfer case and gearbox did however function faultlessly for 312,000km with operator's manual recommended oil changes.

My current Puma runs a little hotter than my last 300Tdi, but not significantly so and a lot cooler than that particular 90.

I do not have the technical knowledge regarding oils you guys have been discussing, but the hot seatbox is not neccesarily linked with bad wear or dodgy oil in your drive train.

Cheers!

[Brid]

G'day Tomo
The 75W140 synthetic will be too heavy for the gearbox, even with higher ambients. I run it in both diffs and transfer case, and am very happy with it. You just need to be careful with warranty, I guess, as there have been numerous faulty diffs & transmissions replaced under warranty...you wouldn't want to give them an excuse to deny a claim.
Brid

[rick130]

[snip]

Should I run synthetic 75/140 GL5 in my gb and Tcase, since living in tropics?
What about diffs? run what is is stated in manual? 80/90 hypoid from memory...

sorry to hyjack thread......

No, use what's recommended in the g/box, (Castrol BOT 130M) just reduce the recommended service interval dramatically.

IMO, with such a limited sump capacity I wouldn't go much past 20,000km, regardless of what brand/type of fluid is used.
I can go 40,000km on a Patrol g/box but they hold near as dammit 4 litres, the Getrag only holds 2.4l max, much the same as an R380 and I don't think it runs an oil cooler either (splash lubed, isn't it ?)

Contaminants and oil shear will be in evidence by then, although it may not be as bad as an R380 in that regard.

In the t/case a good 75W-90 will be fine unless you really cane it and do lots of heavy towing, then i'd move to a 75W-110 (if you can find one) or add an Africaland or Rocky Mountain extended sump.
A 75W or 80W-140 is almost overkill, although I know of a number of users :angel:

There are some excellent mineral 80W-90 oils too that you can use in the t/case and diffs.
Lubrication Engineers and Swepco are two blenders from the US that make very, very good mineral based diff oils, better than some of the syn oils.

While technically you don't need a hypoid diff oil in the diffs (or T/case for that matter) I'd run the best diff oils I could (and I do) as the Rover diffs are so weak, anything that helps them live longer is good.

[Tomo]

Just a quick comment about the hot seat box.
I do not have the technical knowledge regarding oils you guys have been discussing, but the hot seatbox is not neccesarily linked with bad wear or dodgy oil in your drive train.

Cheers!

Thanks, I think i got a bit excited there for a minuite.....
The heat is most likely the exhaust system, I have been reading some of the other threads about this issue with great interest, especially Bludane's (excuse dodgy spelling) Puma build. I plan at some stage to do an exhaust wrap and add some insulation on the underside of the seat box.

Cheers