Say ta ta to the Puma next year...

[rick130]

Apparently the Transit engine won't meet the new Euro emission's standard so a new engine is to be fitted next year according to the feeds.

A huuuge 2.2 litres in capacity.

Land Rover Defender (2011) scooped | Secret New Cars | Car Magazine Online (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Search-Results/Spyshots/Land-Rover-Defender-2011-scooped/)

:(

So much for any commercial use/sales here anymore.

BTW, check the comment underneath.
These blokes design the cars for tomorrow.
Yep, a plug in hybrid is just the thing for commercial use and remote area work......

The next Defender should showcase JLR technologies... and become the ultimate Green machine.
Be innovative and fresh, Include new build methods, Recycled materials, lightweight plastic body panels, hybrid/plug-in/diesel power

:no2:
I wish these blokes would leave the CBD sometimes. A Defender isn't a city car.

[JDNSW]

Apparently the Transit engine won't meet the new Euro emission's standard so a new engine is to be fitted next year according to the feeds.

A huuuge 2.2 litres in capacity.

Land Rover Defender (2011) scooped | Secret New Cars | Car Magazine Online (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Search-Results/Spyshots/Land-Rover-Defender-2011-scooped/)

:(

So much for any commercial use/sales here anymore.

Despite the reduction in capacity the article says "increased power & torque". And I don't remember any adverse comments on performance grounds when going from the 2.5 Td5 to the 2.4 Puma.

The fact is that once you provide boosted induction in an engine, performance is not tied to engine capacity. And the presumably lighter engine is likely to provide other benefits. How succesful the engine turns out to be will depend on a lot of factors, but the absolute capacity is a long way down the list.

John

[inside]

If its getting the same 2.2 from the current Freelander, which is probably a safe bet, there shouldn't any problems with power and torque as long as they don't have to detune it too much.

[rick130]

Despite the reduction in capacity the article says "increased power & torque". And I don't remember any adverse comments on performance grounds when going from the 2.5 Td5 to the 2.4 Puma.

The fact is that once you provide boosted induction in an engine, performance is not tied to engine capacity. And the presumably lighter engine is likely to provide other benefits. How succesful the engine turns out to be will depend on a lot of factors, but the absolute capacity is a long way down the list.

John


Torque off idle and engine braking are two things I'm constantly reminded of when jumping from the Defender to the Patrol John.

You just can't beat displacement in those two areas.

Two more reasons why i want go 4BD1T

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I'm sorry Rick,,

I just had too---:angel:

[abaddonxi]

I'm sorry Rick,,

I just had too---:angel:

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:


Stick it to da man!

[uninformed]

regading capacity, all things being equal....2 engines with the same power out put, one small and one big...which one is doing more work, which one should last longer in the real world....small FID are fine in cars...but not IMO in work trucks....oh and im not talking 6 or 7 liters....just something like 3-4....makes a difference over 2.2-2.5....

rant rant rant :(

[JDNSW]

Torque off idle and engine braking are two things I'm constantly reminded of when jumping from the Defender to the Patrol John.

You just can't beat displacement in those two areas.

Two more reasons why i want go 4BD1T

Not necessarily a problem with small capacity, although I agree that it often is a problem. To get good torque off idle from a small engine, you need a big turbocharger, probably with variable geometry, to get lots of air in at low engine speed.

And you also have to build the engine solidly enough and with a big enough flywheel to stand up to the power pulses. In fact this is probably why there is usually a lack of torque off idle on small engines - the smaller capacity does not need as big a flywheel to idle smoothly so it doesn't get it!

John

[pc3]

Apparently the Transit engine won't meet the new Euro emission's standard so a new engine is to be fitted next year according to the feeds.

A huuuge 2.2 litres in capacity.

Land Rover Defender (2011) scooped | Secret New Cars | Car Magazine Online (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Search-Results/Spyshots/Land-Rover-Defender-2011-scooped/)

:(

So much for any commercial use/sales here anymore.

BTW, check the comment underneath.
These blokes design the cars for tomorrow.
Yep, a plug in hybrid is just the thing for commercial use and remote area work......

The next Defender should showcase JLR technologies... and become the ultimate Green machine.
Be innovative and fresh, Include new build methods, Recycled materials, lightweight plastic body panels, hybrid/plug-in/diesel power

:no2:
I wish these blokes would leave the CBD sometimes. A Defender isn't a city car.

Well it would seem that the PUMA may just be the last of the "real" defenders................on another not how much would it cost/or is it possible to get the new TDV8 into the PUMA ?? If my numbers come up I'm going to do that :D

[PAT303]

Arrh well,looks like I'm rebuilding my Tdi with worked head,VNT,mandrel exhaust and 4HP22. Pat

[Loubrey]

PC3, Land Rover World Magasine ran a series of articles, last year I think, of a TDV8 into a Defender.

They got the engine out of a Rangie that got badly rear ended and they followed the build with pictures, not a bad read.

Europe is losing the plot with this emmision lark. Like earlier said, fine for big cities, but the rest of the world don't live in them...!

[pc3]

PC3, Land Rover World Magasine ran a series of articles, last year I think, of a TDV8 into a Defender.

They got the engine out of a Rangie that got badly rear ended and they followed the build with pictures, not a bad read.

Europe is losing the plot with this emmision lark. Like earlier said, fine for big cities, but the rest of the world don't live in them...!

True and as it was when making my decision on a new car....the big worry for me was motor size coming from a 4.2 Toyota any smaller and don think I would have bought a defender............even after purchaseing now its stil la consideration, can this motor handle the miles the 4.2 did. I suppose time will tell, I will be suprised if it (2.4 Transit engine)has the same longevity as the Toyota 4.2 diesel.

I agree Europe is going over board with the "small motor". The VW amorak coming out has a 2 litre twin turbo.

Thing is I feel the motor size is the wrong way around in the LR line up. The bigger motors should be in the Defender lineup as there the heavy duty work horse IMHO...............or at least give an option of having a small TD or a larger 6cyl.

[Drover]

The Ford DuraTorq engine comes in a variety of sizes.

2.0 L (1998 cc)
2.2 L (2198 cc)
2.4 L (2402 cc)
2.5 L
3.0 L
3.2 L

It would be my guess that the 2.4PUMA will be replaced with 2.2PUMA engine. The assemble plant wont even notice the difference.

The 2.2PUMA is listed for transit as -

Engine: 4cyl / 2198cc
Engine Type Common-rail Turbo diesel
Maximum Power 85ps @ 3500 rpm
Maximum Torque 184 lb/ft @ 1500 rpm

There is also a "Up-Grade" version of 2.2 used in 2005–2007 Ford Mondeo and X-Type Jags

Maximum Power 155 PS (153 hp/114 kW)
Maximum Torque 262 ft·lbf (355N·m)

[frantic]

I have to say it but LR management must employ all their relations in the parts dept.!
Why you ask, well why the hell would you have 5-6 different diesel engines in your line up?freelander 2.0, puma 2.4(now maybe a 2.2), disco,2.7+3.0+3.6 and the RR/sport who get the 3.0 and 3.6 shared with the disco.
Why did they ever fit the puma and now it's replacement when they could have and still could fit the 2.7 diesel v6 from the disco. Maybe it would do some of their unemployable relo's out of a job! Even with the cost difference between the puma and the 2.7TDV6 their direct competition a toyota troopy/workmate would still be more expensive with the same power and better of road ability and comfort!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Torque off idle and engine braking are two things I'm constantly reminded of when jumping from the Defender to the Patrol John.

You just can't beat displacement in those two areas.

Two more reasons why i want go 4BD1TBut you know what, even the Isuzu truck that created the 4BD1-T has down sized the engines to meet Euro emission standards.

As John says in today's engineering the capacity of an engine does not bear the same relevance to power or even efficiency as it used to, even in the short period 1970s/80's when the 4BD1 was developed to now this is true.

I also notice that the Defender shown in the article is the 90, these are frequently fitted with smaller engines. Take the 90 when the 110 and County were the full sized vehicles, the 90 had the 2.5 litre petrol while the 110 usually had the 3.5 litre V8

[Landy Smurf]

it will be interesting to see how this new small motor will go but i dont know how the defender is so bad compared to alot of other suvs the fuel economy is pretty good and yes i know it is for europe but i would assume the gasses what be the same for other diesels i would think that the more fumes would come down to the amount of fuel getting used.hybrid i think they need to improve the technology before putting it in cars they are really not that much more economical when driving but think of the batteries they have a life span think of the extra resourses used to make these etra components.concept is there but the technology isnt quite there.i know some people will probably disagree with what i have to say but that is just want i think

[uninformed]

it will be interesting to see how this new small motor will go but i dont know how the defender is so bad compared to alot of other suvs the fuel economy is pretty good and yes i know it is for europe but i would assume the gasses what be the same for other diesels i would think that the more fumes would come down to the amount of fuel getting used.hybrid i think they need to improve the technology before putting it in cars they are really not that much more economical when driving but think of the batteries they have a life span think of the extra resourses used to make these etra components.concept is there but the technology isnt quite there.i know some people will probably disagree with what i have to say but that is just want i think

is the Defender an SUV or a worktruck... :(

[uninformed]

I'm sorry Rick,,

I just had too---:angel:


:confused::confused::confused:

[rick130]

But you know what, even the Isuzu truck that created the 4BD1-T has down sized the engines to meet Euro emission standards.

As John says in today's engineering the capacity of an engine does not bear the same relevance to power or even efficiency as it used to, even in the short period 1970s/80's when the 4BD1 was developed to now this is true.

I also notice that the Defender shown in the article is the 90, these are frequently fitted with smaller engines. Take the 90 when the 110 and County were the full sized vehicles, the 90 had the 2.5 litre petrol while the 110 usually had the 3.5 litre V8

Of course modern engines are pumping out more power and torque/litre than ever, but how it is delivered in a commercial off road vehicle is as important as outright numbers, and generally speaking a larger displacement engine will deliver the torque in a more usable, unstressed manner.

Then, as Sergio points out I wonder what the useful life of the small, powerful engine will be compared to a larger displacement one ?
Outright commercial operators wouldn't care, as long as it lasts 50-75,000km or two-three years, which ever occurs first, however the rest of us tend to hang onto our cars for a fair while....

Anyway, a 2.2 litre 130 rated to carry 1300kg and tow 3500?
No thanks, and I'd reckon that's what most of Australia would say too, particularly when the direct opposition has engines ranging in capacity from 3-4.5 litres.

[Landy Smurf]

is the Defender an SUV or a worktruck... :(
in australia its a work truck but in euro land i would think it is mostly a suv anyway it was just a comparisonment

[rick130]

I'm sorry Rick,,

I just had too---:angel:


:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:


Stick it to da man!

:o not fair !

[PAT303]

The thing I don't get is that icon is supposed to come out in 2012 so we are going to have the very last true defender,the defender I have been hanging out for go from the best off the shelf 4wd to a silly little engined thing that is good for nothing but passing the tree huggers laws. Pat

[B92 8NW]

The thing I don't get is that icon is supposed to come out in 2012 so we are going to have the very last true defender,the defender I have been hanging out for go from the best off the shelf 4wd to a silly little engined thing that is good for nothing but passing the tree huggers laws. Pat

This is where the new 79 comes in. Twice the pistons, twice the displacement and you'd never have to be the only LR owner in the village anymore:D:D. Imagine the joy of burning all that fuel and oil. **** the tree huggers:cool:

[rick130]

in australia its a work truck but in euro land i would think it is mostly a suv anyway it was just a comparisonment

I don't think so, I think it's mainly bought by farmers, forestry, etc.

Where's Michele, Jo Jo and camel_landy ?
They'd know :D

[vnx205]

I don't think so, I think it's mainly bought by farmers, forestry, etc.

Where's Michele, Jo Jo and camel_landy ?
They'd know :D

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but 18 months ago, when I crossed the border into Scotland, over half the Defenders I saw were towing a trailer and most of them were horse floats, including one that I swear was big enough for four horses.

That plus the fact that most of them seemed to have a liberal coating of some sort of mixture of mud and manure leads me to believe that a significant number of Scottish farmers buy them. I saw none that appeared to have been bought as a SUV.

[abaddonxi]

:confused::confused::confused:


:o not fair !

Gotta follow the bouncing ball.



Or check out the comments.:D

[solmanic]

Not sure I agree with all the talk that the smaller Defender engine will necessarily be more stressed. I have never had cause to rev mine to 3000rpm and it motors along quite comfortably between 1000 & 2000rpm.

It's all in the gearing and the Defender's is so low they could probably put a 1.9l engine in and get similar real world performance. I'd hardly say the Puma engine thrashes about at all. It seems as relaxed and lazy as much larger engined diesels.

[PAT303]

This is where the new 79 comes in. Twice the pistons, twice the displacement and you'd never have to be the only LR owner in the village anymore:D:D. Imagine the joy of burning all that fuel and oil. **** the tree huggers:cool:

Yep they are an improvement,shoddy cabs,shoddy ride,everything possible built cheap,they tram line like you wouldn't believe,burn lots of everything,the valley fills with dirt and stuffs the starter,ever tried changing one?,doors still fall off,suspension still falls apart,had two gearbox failures before 50K and all that for only $72,000:eek:. Pat

[LRO53]

I can confirm this is a 2.2.

http://analogalex.fatcow.com/2200defa.JPG

[pc3]

The bit I dont follow with all this "meeting emissions" bull**** is the fact that they have a 3.0 TDV6 that meets emissions...............why not just use that motor ??

However after having a decent drive in my PUMA 2.4 it certainly is not lacking power and on the highway eats the naturally aspirated 4.2 that was in the cruiser ute I used to own.

Maybe the ICON will be the bees knees and they will just use one of the disco motors in it.

So when will the Aussie Market see the Defenders with the new 2.2 motor ?

And I suppose you could buy a 3.2 Transit motor from Ford and drop that in if you wanted ?? That would be an improvement over the 2.4 too I suppose.

[uninformed]

Gotta follow the bouncing ball.



Or check out the comments.:D

still :confused::confused::confused:

[uninformed]

Not sure I agree with all the talk that the smaller Defender engine will necessarily be more stressed. I have never had cause to rev mine to 3000rpm and it motors along quite comfortably between 1000 & 2000rpm.

It's all in the gearing and the Defender's is so low they could probably put a 1.9l engine in and get similar real world performance. I'd hardly say the Puma engine thrashes about at all. It seems as relaxed and lazy as much larger engined diesels.

yes agree that gearing defintly makes a difference...mine is a 98 so doesnt have the new 6 speed with deep 1st....BUT tow a 2 tonne trailer around and you will find flaws in the small engine, especially with the spread of ratios....I cant recall but remember there being a bit of a jump from either 2nd-3rd or 3-4th....while yes you would have momentume...if you arnt on flat ground or going down hill you will suffer...

also as Rick said, engine braking is important in a work truck..

YES the Def is MENT to be a work truck....but some parts it falls short :(

[uninformed]

The bit I dont follow with all this "meeting emissions" bull**** is the fact that they have a 3.0 TDV6 that meets emissions...............why not just use that motor ??

However after having a decent drive in my PUMA 2.4 it certainly is not lacking power and on the highway eats the naturally aspirated 4.2 that was in the cruiser ute I used to own.

Maybe the ICON will be the bees knees and they will just use one of the disco motors in it.

So when will the Aussie Market see the Defenders with the new 2.2 motor ?

And I suppose you could buy a 3.2 Transit motor from Ford and drop that in if you wanted ?? That would be an improvement over the 2.4 too I suppose.

I believe its more to do with their exports...some countries that Defs go to have a huge tax increase when engine is over 2.5 so LR deems this to be important.....which is just stupid becasue basicly they are letting someone else dictate their market rather than dictate their own market.....yes I agree they should offer a small high tech FID for those countries and a larger cap FID for ROW that needs maybe a strong lower tech motor....Id be happy with 3.5lt well sorted

But they would have to change a few other things which would mean pulling their heads out of their butts which aint going to happen :mad:

[PAT303]

I'm with you there.I would not be hard to change to hypoid diffs and a long stroke 3.0ltr,people do it in thier back yard so LR should able to manage it. Pat

[pc3]

I'm with you there.I would not be hard to change to hypoid diffs and a long stroke 3.0ltr,people do it in thier back yard so LR should able to manage it. Pat

Would the Transit 3.2 litre drop in too a PUMA ?

is that a good motor in comparison to the 2.4 ?

[PAT303]

Is the 3.2 a four or V6?,it would be the defender they should have made from the start. Pat

[pc3]

Is the 3.2 a four or V6?,it would be the defender they should have made from the start. Pat

Unsure....I am guessing larger capacity 4cyl. Definitely should have been the Ford motor they used...........I reckon they would have sold quite a few more in Australia if they had of. The cabin of the PUMA really is a nice place to be, I like it better than my mates Triton.

If my numbers came up..................I'd spend a bucket load on my 130 PUMA bigger diffs, motor etc. as it is I love the thing, but if I was made of money I'd do a transplant.

[muddymech]

which is just stupid becasue basicly they are letting someone else dictate their market rather than dictate their own market.....


erm did they not do this in 70's and lost the australian and south african markets, ohh and a huge chunk of europe.

[Frenchie]

Hmmm, a hybrid.....c'mon fellas need to think outside the square here.

A decent solar panel setup and you could do the Canning on one tank of fuel! :D

[isuzutoo-eh]

Who needs a hybrid? Enough hiclones and you can sell your fuel to the jap 4wds on the Canning :D

[abaddonxi]

still :confused::confused::confused:

Sorry Serge.

Pedro was ranting in the comments section of the linked article in the first post.;)

[Michael2]

On a recent article I read, LR were developing a hybrid gearbox that they could fit behind any LR engine / vehicle. It was said to be a ZF 6 Speed with a double clutch and an electric drive in the box. The gearbox has the same external dimensions as a regular ZF 6 Speed.

A tourquey electric drive in the gearbox could certainly be a benefit for slow low geared work. You could also exit a river, even if you drowned your engine! Plus you could move off in stealth mode at 5am, so as not to wake the neighbours, or creep around a campsite in the middle of the night without feeling self conscious about the diesel rattle.

I'm guessing the engine would still run in prolonged electric mode to keep the electricity to the drive, unless you wanted to carry a tonne of batteries.

And think of the other benefits, with your car generating so much power for the gearbox, it shouldn't be too hard to plug in a microwave to complement your fridge.

[PAT303]

Thats the way Prious,how ever you spell it work.In town they are fine,on the open road the electric motor works all the time and get very hot.Toyota had two recalls on them because they used to catch on fire from prolonged open road driving.The defender doesn't need gizmo's,just a good torquey engine,six speed manual or auto option and strong diffs. Pat

[rick130]

Sorry Serge.

Pedro was ranting in the comments section of the linked article in the first post.;)


Their site wouldn't let me comment at all :(