Front axle castor wedges

[COFFEY76]

Hi,

I am trying to figure out how to improve the steering in my 2A and reduce the random wander of the car.

This is a requirement of getting the car engineered.

The problem is the car doesnt want to drive in a stright line for more than a coupel meters and is a constant struggle to keep on the road if you stop concerntrating.

I know 'You'll never take the free play out of a series steering box' but......i can only hope!

A few people have suggested adjusting the front wheel castor by inserting wedges between the axle and the spring.

Basically as i havent heard of this being done on series landrovers i was wondering if it is a good idea?

Ive adjusted the steering box as much as i can but still have copious amounts of free play...

Right have front wheel as some kingpin movement.

Should i be worried about an increased angle on the diff?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Why will you never take the play out of a series steering box?

It is a recirculating ball system, if there is wear in the system you can install oversize ball bearings.

There is also a lot of things that you need to check. Firstly are all six of the tie rod ends, done up tight, lubricated and without play?
Are both swivels set up correctly with the correct preload?
are all the steering levers: steering box; steering relay top and bottom; left and right swivel housings tight without play on the splines?
Are your wheel bearings in good condition and correctly pre-loaded?
Is there play between the chassis and the steering relay? Particularly play at the bottom!
Is your steering box worn? Do you need to overhaul it, replace the bearings in the rocker shaft and column?
Is the steering wheel tight without play on the column?
Is the steering damper working?
Are your spring bushes in good condition? (all four springs)
Are the four spring centre bolts intact and tight?
Are U bolts on your axle housings tight?
Are your axle housings straight (not damaged or bent)?
Are your stub axles and swivel balls tight on the housings?
Do you have tyres that have a tendency to track?If you check and/or fix all those parameters you will find that your Series Land Rover is quite stable on the road without caster wedges.

[groucho]

You should try the basic things first.
king pins/swivell pins, ball joints. relay, steering box.
A good wheel alignment place should have them. castor correction is generaly
used when the vehicle has had a spring lift or longer shackles. I have seen Many series landys especialy series 1's fitted with them for some reason.

[groucho]

Ok. Diana can type quicker than me....

[COFFEY76]

1. yes
2. not sure
3. dunno will check
4. not sure of condition
5. was pretty good last time i checked it
6. Well i guess that could be one possibility that i will tackle once cheaper options have been exhausted

7. i adjusted it as well as i could with at least 4 inces of movement left in it

8. yes
9. yes
10. yes
11. yes
12. straight
13. not sure will check
14. They are new tyres so i dont really know how they drive


Thanks for the help, this list will help me move along with it!

[JDNSW]

If you have four inches of free play - you need to find out where it is (could be a lot of little bits). Get someone to waggle the wheel while you look for it in all the places Diana suggested. There should be no more than about an inch on the rim of the wheel. If all your play is in the steering box (which is the only place in the steering linkage where there should be any play, then the box needs overhauling if it cannot be removed by adjustment.

Other points to check, not mentioned, are anything that is "springing" when you move the wheel. This could be the bulkead where it steadies the steering box support, for example, or a bent drag link, or tie rod ends that are not aligned from end to end of the drag link or tie rod.

Oh, and the only reason you would consider wedges is if the caster had been upset by fitting extended shackles without extended spring hangers - and you probably would not get that engineered anyway!

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

See: comments in red

1. yes
2. not sure
3. dunno will check
4. not sure of condition
5. was pretty good last time i checked it There is a pressed metal retainer bolted under the cross member that is supposed to stabilise the bottom of the relay. Unfortunately this often gets oval'ed and no linger prevents side to side movement. You need to lie under neath and have someone rock the steering while you feel if there is any play between the retainer and the relay itself. I have made a replacement for mine what is machined out of plate, instead of pressed metal.
6. Well i guess that could be one possibility that i will tackle once cheaper options have been exhausted. If there is play inside the box, oversize ball bearings can be an overhaul option. Checking for play in the bushes is good, and make sure the mounting on the chassis bracket and onto the chassis is tight.
7. i adjusted it as well as i could with at least 4 inces of movement left in it. I'm thinking more of the steering wheel as it clamps to the steering shaft, 4" of play there means that there is no spline left! :o
8. yes
9. yes
10. yes
11. yes
12. straight
13. not sure will check
14. They are new tyres so i dont really know how they drive


Thanks for the help, this list will help me move along with it!I find the only way to check is to do it with two people. One component at a time, you place your hand on each where it articulates with the next and have your assistant rock the steering wheel. As you do the check, write down the report on each. You can adjust things and tighten where you can as you go, but don't get distracted before you complete the check of the whole system. Then prioritise the repairs and check them off once done.

When I first bought my SIII FFR it was all over the road and you couldn't take your attention away for a second. It was very tiring to drive.

I went through it and replaced a few tie rods, tightened up some U bolts and adjusted the end float on the steering box. Now apart from the noise and nature of the Xtra-Grip tyres it's a pleasure to drive all day.

[rick130]

Upsides of increased castor ?

Greatly improved directional stability and increased self centring.

Downside ?

Depending on how far you go, can greatly increase the weight of the steering, sometimes to the point of power steering being a must.

I used to run castor wedges in a Jeep, and Dad also ran wedges in his Jeep.
American 4WD's ran barely adequate castor, and so wandered badly. I can only assume US drivers preferred light steering to any sort of directional stability.

[COFFEY76]

The size of the wedges in question would only be 6 or 7 mm high at the fat end of the wedge.

how significant would the angle of castor have to be before the steering became very heavy?

Would the replacement of the old leaf springs with new leaf springs affect the castor angle?

possibly the old angle of the swivel balls had been adjusted to suit the rusty flattened springs and with new springs this would have adverse effects on steering?


The new springs raised the vehicle significantly compared to the hight of the old springs.

[rick130]

The size of the wedges in question would only be 6 or 7 mm high at the fat end of the wedge.

how significant would the angle of castor have to be before the steering became very heavy?

Depends on tyre width, how strong you are, etc, but depending on how long your spring perches are, 6mm is a hell of a lot in one hit, I'm pretty sure I only used 1/8" ones but my memory is a bit hazy twenty five years on.

'Standard' castor angle on, say, a Defender is 3*.
We would sometimes run up to 8-9* or more on some race cars, but you had to be pretty strong physically to steer the buggers. It felt like trying to steer a truck without power steering. (increased castor increases negative camber as you wind in lock, I would use this on some cars as a crutch to help reduce mid corner understeer)


Would the replacement of the old leaf springs with new leaf springs affect the castor angle?

Yep, to a small degree, depending on how much extra camber the spring is running.


possibly the old angle of the swivel balls had been adjusted to suit the rusty flattened springs and with new springs this would have adverse effects on steering?


[snip]

I doubt it, not many people pop off swivels and slot the holes.
In a Land Rover this is a more elegant solution IMO than castor wedges, and if you are worried about the swivels moving you could scotch key them to the axle housing or something similar.

[JDNSW]

Series Landrover springs are symmetrical, that is the length of spring in front of and behind the spring is the same. This means that as far as the spring itself is concerned, if the spring is sagged there is no change in caster. (The height of the shackle end will change very slightly as the spring is deflected, but without calculating this I think the change in caster angle would be insignificant)

So unless there is one or more broken leaves, spring sag will not affect caster. And if you have four inches of play in the steering, caster is the last thing to worry about!

John

[COFFEY76]

oky doky....

cool stuff thanks guys, guess ill start looking at reconditioning the steering box.

I just want to get this stupid car registered and on the road! its all this little things that is holding me back...

if it was already registered then i would be happier to pull the box apart but as its not registered it will just be one more task that takes forever (work 6 days a week) to get done....

im holding back the rant....

haha...grrr

[Bunjeel]

Hi there,

I'd recommend starting from the wheels and working back to the box. If the ball joints look like they've been there for a while, I'd replace the whole six as it only needs a little bit of wear in each to cause major wander. They don't last very long and wear can be hard to detect by either eye or feel. While the rods are disconnected from the relay check the relay bearings - a piece of water pipe over the arms for leverage is helpful. Check for wear in the worm by tightening up the ball adjuster while the wheels are straight ahead until the steering as a bit stiffer than you'd like, then turn the wheel out to full lock and see if it gets stiffer or seizes up - if it does, the worm is worn (they usually wear in the centre of the range first) - or the worm bearings are shot but you'd expect to hear / feel noises in that case. However beware if the box has been filled with grease instead of oil - sometimes done to disguise and quieten a worn-out box. Also after the play is removed IMO it's essential to set the toe-in correctly. Without any toe-in it will track and wander however good the steering.

Cheers

[COFFEY76]

Thanks to everyone with your helpful advice!

I decided to start fresh and get my toe in totally correct! This has made a HUGE difference. Now i dont have to battle to keep straight.

The box has been adjusted but is just a little light at the moment.

But its evident that it is in serious need of an overhaul. Still alot of freeplay, but is less obvious with the car wanting to head stright.

Everything has been topped up with grease.

And after playing around to fix a stiff linkage to the carby i changed some springs over and readjusted the linkage and i can now get full throttle out of the 202, where as before i was not able to use all of it.

Finally the car steers straight, stops quickly and goes up hills

engineer test is booked in for next week and im looking forward to posting some pictures of the car with its little sticker allowing me to drive it on roads legally!

Thanks again to everyone!

[Aaron IIA]

Does it behave differently on dirt roads to bitumen highways? Highways tend to have ruts in them, caused by heavy trucks. The ruts tend to be of a wider track than the Land Rover. This tends to make the Land Rover track from one rut to the other, appearing to dance about. Having a good toe-in helps to keep it straight by taking up a bit of freeplay from the tie-rod. If it shudders a lot when going over train lines and pot holes, suspect the swivel housing bearings. There is a washer that needs to be pre-loaded correctly, with the swivel housing seal and tie-rod end both removed, to provide resistance to turning. This does the same job as a bit of a steering dampener.
Aaron.

[UncleHo]

G'day Coffey76 :)

The series landrover swivel hubs are manufactured with a 7deg inclination,so there is no need to fit wedges,here are a few specs which you may find helpful.
1. wheel bearing freeplay 0.004 to0.006 thou inch (0.10-0.15mm)
2. swivel hub preload, 14 to 16 lbs (pounds) at steering lever eye,without wheel attached. set with fish scales
3. front wheel camber 1 1/2 deg
4. front wheel Caster 3 deg.

5. wheel alignment.1.2 to 2.4mm 3/64" to 3/32" conventional tyres
NOTE: 0=ZERO toe in with Radial tyres ;)


CHECK, steering pitman arm at steering box,the large nut 1"+ & lockwasher will often work loose allowing excess play,tighten and fold lockwasher over 80ft/lb.

CHECK, that all pinch bolts on relay arms are tight,55+ft/lbs


Max play at edge of steering wheel 1" (25mm) to 1 1/2" (37mm)


Hope that is of help


cheers

[COFFEY76]

Thanks for that info it will come in handy when i attack the steering box.

Once its registered (monday next week) I plan on fixing the freeplay in the steering, which at the moment is about 3 inches. But fixing alignment has solved the random tracking issues.