Cheap Snorkel?

[CSBrisie]

Interesting EBAY item I spotted (nothing to do with me).

Land Rover Discovery 3 TDV6 Snorkel - eBay Other, Air Intake, Fuel Delivery, Car Parts, Accessories, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 29-Aug-10 20:40:29 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Land-Rover-Discovery-3-TDV6-Snorkel-/200503004730?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eaee90e3a)

$AU365....hmmm.....who makes it?

[trobbo]

I asked the very same question of the seller - who makes it? answer was to the effect it is a non brand specific chinese import.

[vnx205]

It might be worthwhile reading this article before you rush out and buy one.

Don't Get Burnt - Low Quality Snorkel Copies (http://www.dont-get-burnt.com/)

[oldsalt]

Could be made out of last weeks "coke" bottles......maybe :eek:

[Dirty3]

It might be worthwhile reading this article before you rush out and buy one.

Don't Get Burnt - Low Quality Snorkel Copies (http://www.dont-get-burnt.com/)

A great bit of information, scientifically articulated. You pay for what you get is my mantra. Too often we opt for the cheaper product, but only for that reason. What is the real cost? Having to replace the cheapy chinese copy in a few years negates the initial extra cost. When you pay heaps for a car, why use inferior products on it?
For the sake of a few hundred dollars and that's all it is, I would go the local product (and now global) any day.

[CaverD3]

It might be worthwhile reading this article before you rush out and buy one.

Don't Get Burnt - Low Quality Snorkel Copies (http://www.dont-get-burnt.com/)

Just take into account that it may not be unbiased; it is published by Safari. :angel:

However I would say the snorkel is not a snorkel but a RAI like the LR one. The sealing to the wing does not look watertight.
Agree you get what you pay for though.

[isuzurover]

A great bit of information, scientifically articulated. You pay for what you get is my mantra. Too often we opt for the cheaper product, but only for that reason. What is the real cost? Having to replace the cheapy chinese copy in a few years negates the initial extra cost. When you pay heaps for a car, why use inferior products on it?
For the sake of a few hundred dollars and that's all it is, I would go the local product (and now global) any day.

As mentioned, that is a website set up by safari, (after?) they lost a court case against the manufacturer of the other snorkels. I really don't care either way, but my interpretation of that (pseudo)"scientifically articulated" report is below:

I posted this on another forum...



...

These copy snorkels are a perfect example. They are manufactured from what is known as a dry mix of PE and carbon black to give the colour. It has a UV rating of around 8 and will degrade in a year or so when left out in the sun. They look the same until you view a section through a microscope and see the white PE polymer grains entirely enveloped in carbon black. The other ****er is that they shatter if bumped when cold.

The Safari snorkel body is manufactured here in Melbourne, using a special material that has been compounded with a number of additives and is entirely homogeneous down to the molecular level. It can be left in the sun for 20 years and has consistent physical properties down to well below minus 20 C.

These guys just don't understand the importance of using the right material. And the poor consumer ends up being shafted because he knows no better.


I made some time to go and grab a couple of snorkels to cut up and compare. To look at an ironman copy of the genuine safari article can be confusing. Some of the copies are well finished and others show signs of being forced out of the tooling.

To look at though, you'd think ****er, saved some money.

Anyway, I cut a piece out of the genuine safari snorkel and it looked like this below.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1007.jpg

Nothing startling. A smooth cut surface with no grabbing on the fine blade.



Did the same with the ironman copy snorkel and here's the first warning sign.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1008.jpg

The cut is rough, feathers and edges visibly lighter colour. That tells me straight away that the plastic is different to the genuine product.




Back to the genuine safari product and a very thin slice and under the microscope.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1009.jpg

This shows a homogeneous structure (with voids).



Now the copy snorkel.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1010.jpg

Right away I could see a grainy structure. A further close up shows the plastic grains even better.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1011.jpg

So what we have is a copy snorkel that is made up of whatever that white polymer is (I can't test it here) with the carbon black colouring agent coating each grain.

This means that the structure itself is only as strong as the grain and will become brittle at low temperatures.

I also had a look at one of the copy rubber hoses and thought wow, that's a pretty good copy. I'd have trouble telling it from the genuine article. I then gave it a bit of a squeeze and looked inside at the huge crack along the moulding part line....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1012.jpg



...


taken from another forum.

This text and the pics seem to be a deliberate attempt to mislead on behalf of the author (safari?)

First of all, a UV-8 rating (if that is what the Ironman snorkel has) means that the plastic can withstand 8000hrs of UV exposure before the elongation at break (under tensile stress) reaches 50% of the original value.

So at minimum it should last 8000 hrs of UV exposure, and I make that ~2 years since we don't live in perpetual sunlight. If your vehicle is usually garaged, it may last 10-20 years.

I note that it doesn't state what the UV rating of the Safari product is??? Both snorkels are just as black as each other. The black colour is due to thye addition of carbon black, which is also one of the main additives to make plastics UV stable.

Also - "shatter if bumped when cold" - how cold??? If you freeze most things in liquid nitrogen they will "shatter if bumped when cold" however for the safari they give a precise temperature (-20oC).

The statement "entirely homogeneous down to the molecular level" is a load of rubbish. PE has a crystalline structure, and the image of the safari snorkel clearly shows a crystalline structure - albeit with a reduced contrast/brightness to make it less pronounced.

As I said - it seems a deliberate attempt to mislead.

I have no doubt the safari is a superior product - I have seen vehicles which rolled heavily, yet the snorkel survived unscathed (unlike the roof). However - the Ironman snorkel may perform satisfactorily for the price.

For me - mandrel bent stainless - cheaper and will last forever!

[CaverD3]

Agree.:BigThumb:
Always read things in context. One of the main ones to ask is: "Who wrote it and who paid for it"

[Dirty3]

Just take into account that it may not be unbiased; it is published by Safari.

Whichever way it is published, biased or not, if I were Safari I would do my utmost to discredit a chinese copy.
What is failing here is the understanding that a local company has made good, with a product developed over many, many years, they have put up the dollars to develop it (for each vehicle manufacturer and variation), intellectual property, proprietary design & implementation yet the chinese come along and copy all this with no scruples just because they can and just because we have retailers out there that want to offer a cheap product (nay, cash in on) so they can reap the rewards, yet have contributed in no way shape or form.
On the other hand you have the buyers that create the need/hunger for constant consumption, no matter what the cost. I guess that's what you call a free market? At the end of the day, you still pay for what you get. IMO :)

[ADMIRAL]

A couple of questions need to be asked by prospective purchasers of them selves.

ie.

What is the primary purpose of fitting a snorkel to my vehicle ?

If my chosen product fails to deliver, on that primary purpose, what are the expected consequences ?

Should make the decison making process a little more straightforward.

Me, ......I'm a great believer in that old saying....' you get what you pay for'.

[DiscoWeb]

The other relevant point for I assume all D4's owners and most D3 owners is that you/we have spend north of $70 -$80 k on our pride and joy.

Here we are discussing the merits of saving a few hundred $ for a piece of equipment that could potentially be the difference between killing an engine or at least seriously stuffing it if it failed.

Now I am all for shopping around to get the best price but as ADMIRAL said you get what you pay for, and in my limited experience with most things cheap and Chinese the thrill of saving a few bucks wears off when it stops working prematurely and you end up buying the properly made one anyway.

It would be a Safari snorkel or LR RAI from me if I purchase one.

Just my $0.02 worth.

George

[Duck's Guts]

It would be a Safari snorkel or LR RAI from me if I purchase one.


Couldn't agree more

[wyperfield]

This is a very interesting conversation. I fitted an Airflow Snorkel on my last 4WD which was a good unit, but real pain to install. This time for the Disco 3, I went to ARB and got the Safari one fitted. Why? Pretty simple - have a look at the installation instructions on the Safari website. They are detailed and brilliant. This gave me confidence that they had done their research well. The snorkel fits well, there is very little wind noise, only a tiny loss of vision, and it's a locally designed product. It's not worth trying to save a few dollars on a cheaper copy.

[furrydog]

I cannot remember what make snorkel I had but I bought it from TJM. I fitted it myself to a Toyota Hilux and took special care in fitting the snorkel. I notice where it entered the airbox there was a 5mm gap all the way round which I filled with high temperature sealant. The original fitting air inlet was higher up, so without the sealant I would have been worse off. The instruction made no mention of sealant and no sealant was provided in the kit. Who knows if a TJM installer would have used any sealant?
Just my opinion if you not doing deep water crossing a snorkel is not worth the money. I notice no so called RAM EFFECT and the air filter didn’t seem to be any cleaner, mind I did not do much dusty driving.

[Disco4SE]

Hi all, just interested to know if anyone has noticed any slight perfomance gains from fitting a snorkel.
I did with my LC100 but I did the K & N air filter at the same time.
Cheers, Craig

[Duck's Guts]

The K&N filter alone would have resulted in a noticeable improvement in performance.
I installed same to both a R51 Pathie & a XR6 Turbo Falcon. I dynoed the XR6T during each modification I made, and the K&N filter resulted in an additional 9 rwkw - a significant improvement.

[trobbo]

I dont think K&N's are a good idea on 4bys used off road.
I have had two engines die prematurely, both using K&N's
They increase performance by reducing restriction of air flow. The restriction of air flow imo is due to reduced filtration. On the road it doesn't make to much difference. Off road in fine dust it is a problem. Also consider the ease at which you can change out a paper filter when remote.

[CaverD3]

Agree with trobbo about K&N they are on road performance filters.


Also consider the ease at which you can change out a paper filter when remote.

Or how easy it is to give a paper one a shake or blow off the dust to get you going again.

[wyperfield]

A general comment about the disco Filters.
Last year I went through a huge dust storm on the track through Walker's crossing on the way to Innaminka from Birdsville. Vision was down to about 10 metres and at times we could not see the track at all. The storm lasted about 2 hours of driving time. We had never been in anything like it.
I had no snorkel at that time. When we camped at Innaminka that night, I removed the air cleaner box, cleaned the filter and tipped out the sand and dust. There was surprisingly little - nowhere near what I had expected. My mate with a Patrol and snorkel had more dust than I did.
So, although I got a snorkel now,(for water crossings) the standard set-up is pretty amazing for dust and normal use. If you are not going to do water crossings, I would question whether to bother with a snorkel or LR raised air inlet.

[Duck's Guts]

I agree too re the K&N.
I will not be using one in the D4. I'll stick with paper.

Something to note with K&N or any other oiled foam/cotton filter: you don't need to over oil them to still get an oil film over everything on the engine side of the filter. The XR6T I had suffered the effects of this oil film on the fly-by-wire throttle position sensors. Resulted in an intermittent rough idle fault. Required periodic dismantling of the intake piping for a degreasing...

[Disco4SE]

Thanks for the comments & advise. Although using K & N filters on my previous vehicles, I think I'll give it a miss on the D4. Too many hard earned $ to take a chance for a few extra Kw that I don't think is needed on the 3.0Lt anyway.
I also agree that the higher air intake maybe better for deep water crossings, but in thick dust, there is probably not much difference.
More opinions welcome, but at this stage stock is the go.
Cheers, Craig

[furrydog]

I use to work in a Hospital and all the operation theaters had HEPA oil filters. I was under the impression that these filters trapped air particles 2um and above.

[isuzurover]

I use to work in a Hospital and all the operation theaters had HEPA oil filters. I was under the impression that these filters trapped air particles 2um and above.

HEPA (High Efficiency Particulate Air) filters remove 99.95% of particles. No automotive air filter would conform to HEPA standard when new.

Air filters are not sieves.

[Disco4SE]

HEPA (High Efficiency Particulate Air) filters remove 99.95% of particles. No automotive air filter would conform to HEPA standard when new.

Air filters are not sieves.
Does this mean that the K & N air filter is ok to use?

[jonesy63]

Does this mean that the K & N air filter is ok to use?

K&N would probably be ok if you only drove on sealed roads about town. All bets are off once you hit dirt... they're really designed for filtering less (less flow resistance) to give higher performance - not for longevity of engine. As the saying goes... horses for courses.

[chuck]

I had a Safari Snorkel fitted to my D3 yesterday.
After watching it being fitted I now have an appreciation of why they cost so much.
The quality was good & the instructions comprehensive.
It is not a job I would do myself.

I purchased the snorkel for ARB for $484.00 with LROCV discount & then had it fitted elsewhere.

BTW - thankyou to to the fitter for a great job.

Regards

Chuck

[Jesse B]

Just a quick one to add my experience to the snorkel story: in the last few weeks I imported a genuine LR RAI from the UK (for less than half what I'd been quoted here, freight included) - and then had it fitted by my local dealer. Fitting cost two-thirds of the purchase price - but overall still a significant saving. I went with the RAI because I have no desire to go wading rivers, but wanted to get my air intake up above a lot of the dust I encounter out in our goldfields & mid-west. And I figured I'd stay genuine where I could, to reduce the weasel options in the case of any warranty issues...

Not the most handsome piece of equipment - prompted one of my teenage daughters to ask "what is that big black ugly thing you've put on the car?" But no noticeable increase in wind noise - well, there was none before - and there's still none that I can hear. And to be honest, I don't mind the look - very LR.

[NomadicD3]

Hi All, interesting chat about snorkels etc. I did read that unifilters CLAIM to filter down 4um with a 24% increase in air flow. I have always run uni filters in everyting {4x4, car, motorbikes} and have never had any problems. Anyway just a thought ;). For more relevant reading got to the unifliter website.
PS seems unifliter don't make a filter to suit a D3 or 4:(

[isuzurover]

Hi All, interesting chat about snorkels etc. I did read that unifilters CLAIM to filter down 4um with a 24% increase in air flow. I have always run uni filters in everyting {4x4, car, motorbikes} and have never had any problems. Anyway just a thought ;). For more relevant reading got to the unifliter website.
PS seems unifliter don't make a filter to suit a D3 or 4:(

Any filter manufacturer who claims a specific micron size for the air filters clearly has no idea how air filters work.

Btw - soot in the oil is MUCH smaller than 4um and still does engine damage.



Does this mean that the K & N air filter is ok to use?

No, what gave you that idea?

[rovercare]

I've braved it, I've ordered 2:eek:

Sorry, not D3, but 110

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170538902484&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180559710506&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT