Red VS Green Coolant again!!!

[LandyAndy]

Yet another coolant thread.
BlackBetty has just been filled with GREEN coolant!!!!
Im told it meets Landrover Specs,and is specified by Penrite for the TD5.
It has this coolant in it. http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/Premium%20Anti%20Freeze%20Anti%20Boil%20JAN%202010 .pdf
Penrites website say they dont do an OAT coolant at present but may do so in the near future.
I wasnt keen on it going into the Defender so I asked that the coolant not be changed today.
In the next few weeks a new radiator/waterpump/thermostat and intercooler so I can rid the Penrite if the "Brains Trust" have the same gut feeling I have.
Up til now Ive been using Nulon OAT coolant at a pretty strong brew since owning the D2(6 years),Ive changed it 3 times not for KMs,more peace of mind.
An observation today,BlackBetty ran SIGNIFICANTLY cooler than normal in the same conditions on the same hwy.Normaly the temp is 94/96 deg up to 99/100 deg on the last big hill before home.Today 87/88 deg peaking at 92 on the last big hill.
Andrew

[feraldisco]

I spoke to an old campaigner at Natrad last week - he was very much against ethylene glycol and OAT/HOAT. Reckoned that they just cause metal corrosion, rubber deterioration and therefore leaking problems. Even though I'm in Canberra, all this guy uses in cooling systems in all the vehicles they service is their own Natra Radiator Conditioner (112g/l Triethanolamine) - they don't recommend anything else unless you hit the snow. This guys been around a long time, so you reckon they would know about it if people had problems with coolant freezing. My Disco gets left outside, and even on a -3 night, the engine bay is still +3 (and water probably warmer still as it is a temperature "buffer" more so than air temp), even if vehicle hasn't been driven that day (it is in the sun during the day).

[Grumpy]

Hi Andy,

The stuff I use comes from Coz at Barbagello's in Ozi Park. It is made by Castrol and is called Radicool Coolant.
Contains :- 32% Ethelene Glycol
10ppm Denatonium Benzoate
also contains a Bittering agent [what ever that is]
Exceeds AINZS 2108.1 and most international standards.
Mix 50/50 with distilled water

Seems to be ok - no problems as yet. Did look at Penrite, Dunno.

Tony

[catch-22]

Running a stronger brew will run hotter temps. Is the GREEN running the same brew ratios?

Nothing beats plain water for heat transfer.

[iPom]

Maybe the bittering agent is make it unpalatable. After all it is highly poisonous if ingested. There was a case in Europe a while back where some unscrupulous wine makers were adding anti freeze to wine to make it sweeter. Needless to say some people died.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hey Andy!
once again our paths cross:p
When the shop put the new rocker gaskets in they put in green coolant, I asked the question and the owner said it was organic and the reason he changed brands,, he then went out back to check and came back a bit concerned that the latest packaging didnt have organic on the label anymore.

anyone in the trade know about "Guardian" coolant??

[George130]

THat's one of the questions I have for the guys who just did my engine install.
All I know right now is they filled it with green coolant. As for what specs I don't know but at least it's all new so shouldn't be a case of mixed.

[PhilipA]

Conventional antifreeze is formulated with inhibitors composed of neutralized inorganic acids, such as phosphates and silicates, to protect a cooling system against rust and corrosion. Over time, however, inorganic inhibitors deplete and may no longer provide maximum cooling system protection. This is why it is generally recommended that conventional coolants be changed every 2 years or 24,000 miles.

In contrast, OAT coolants are formulated with neutralized organic acids to form a highly effective corrosion inhibitor system that provides maximum cooling system protection. Organic inhibitors do not deplete as quickly as the inorganic inhibitors used in conventional coolants. This is why properly formulated OAT coolants typically provide up to 150,000 miles or 5 years of cooling system protection between service intervals. The superior OAT formula in PEAK Global LifeTime uniquely provides a LifeTime of cooling system protection - for as long as you own your vehicle.
back to top (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/faq_global.html#top)

From Autoexpert site.
So it appears the advantage of OAT is longer life, and reduced service costs.

Honda do not recommend change for 10years in my Jazz so it must be good stuff.

Regard sPhilip A

[feraldisco]

Honda do not recommend change for 10years in my Jazz so it must be good stuff.




Honda will no doubt be more than happy to sell you a new radiator, water pump etc in 5 years time...

[PAT303]

I spoke to an old campaigner at Natrad last week - he was very much against ethylene glycol and OAT/HOAT. Reckoned that they just cause metal corrosion, rubber deterioration and therefore leaking problems. Even though I'm in Canberra, all this guy uses in cooling systems in all the vehicles they service is their own Natra Radiator Conditioner (112g/l Triethanolamine) - they don't recommend anything else unless you hit the snow. This guys been around a long time, so you reckon they would know about it if people had problems with coolant freezing. My Disco gets left outside, and even on a -3 night, the engine bay is still +3 (and water probably warmer still as it is a temperature "buffer" more so than air temp), even if vehicle hasn't been driven that day (it is in the sun during the day).

Couldn't agree more.After many a year looking after mobile machinery no one will convince me that OAT is good coolant,also don't ever run coolant at a higher than 50/50 ratio,more coolant means less heat transfer. Pat

[PAT303]

From Autoexpert site.
So it appears the advantage of OAT is longer life, and reduced service costs.

Honda do not recommend change for 10years in my Jazz so it must be good stuff.

Regard sPhilip A

They can have coolant that lasts as long as they want but it's not going to stop the rad blocking up long before 10 years. Pat

[landrover dave]

I spoke to an old campaigner at Natrad last week - he was very much against ethylene glycol and OAT/HOAT. Reckoned that they just cause metal corrosion, rubber deterioration and therefore leaking problems. Even though I'm in Canberra, all this guy uses in cooling systems in all the vehicles they service is their own Natra Radiator Conditioner (112g/l Triethanolamine) - they don't recommend anything else unless you hit the snow. This guys been around a long time, so you reckon they would know about it if people had problems with coolant freezing. My Disco gets left outside, and even on a -3 night, the engine bay is still +3 (and water probably warmer still as it is a temperature "buffer" more so than air temp), even if vehicle hasn't been driven that day (it is in the sun during the day).
I agree with this post, but will add that ethylene glycol is a sugar based product. This in time crystalises and forms a coating on the inside of the radiator etc. A 5% blockage of radiator core = about 30% decrease in cooling. I use a tectalloy organic coolant inhibitor, available from repco, its mixed about 1:10.
The only way to clean the crystalised glycol out of radiator is to have it strtipped and rodded by a radiator specialist.

[Kandy]

Maybe the bittering agent is make it unpalatable. After all it is highly poisonous if ingested. There was a case in Europe a while back where some unscrupulous wine makers were adding anti freeze to wine to make it sweeter. Needless to say some people died.

Unbelievable!!!!

Sometime ago when I began having Kandy(Disco 2003 Td5) serviced at MR Redcliffe they used a green coolant-- when I rang them (thinking all OAT coolants were red) they said no, theres is fine and they would know. The latest servive done last week and a full coolant flush and change it was RED!. They now use Zerex Dex-Cool, a valvoline product and it meets all the OAT etc. stuff so I guess its not the colour but the specs. that matter as does the Penrite, a hybrid of OAt and other inhibitors.

Steve

[Fluids]

Andy, my Td5 runs at about 88/89 ... peaking at 91/92 ... max seen was 100 from really HARD beach driving.

I'm running the OAT Nulon Red. It had a red (OAT?) when we purchased it, and I'll be changing it about every 2yrs ... which will be about 40,000km for our driving. They say it's good for 5yrs/250,000km, but 5yrs would be 100,000km for me ... coolants cheap.

Kev..

[robbotd5]

Andy, my Td5 runs at about 88/89 ... peaking at 91/92 ... max seen was 100 from really HARD beach driving.

I'm running the OAT Nulon Red. It had a red (OAT?) when we purchased it, and I'll be changing it about every 2yrs ... which will be about 40,000km for our driving. They say it's good for 5yrs/250,000km, but 5yrs would be 100,000km for me ... coolants cheap.

Kev..
G'day Kev.
Do you have a TM2 watchdog or similar on your engine, if so, where have you got the sensor attatched?
Regards Robbo

[Fluids]

Robbo ... I run my Nanocom in instrument mode on the dash.

Don't have an engine saver yet ... still tossing up between that or an EMS1

I do like the extra guages the Nanocom provides whilst driving ... and the 100deg RED flashing water temp' light for the better half :)

Idiot lights & alarms seem to work better than guages when wives are involved ... she's already cooked 2 engines ... no oil, oil light on, but I was only 5km from home so I thought I could make it .... sigh ...

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I just use Cat coolant. I get it cheap enough, about $60 a 20L drum. Have seen Cat engines with over 1 million km's on it and just as clean as the day it was assembled.
I am yet to see a radiator that has any blockage in it. The only radiators we ever replace are due to chassis twisting resulting in cracks.

OAT wont lay down a protective coating UNLESS corrosion becomes evident whereas normal glycol starts a silicate and phosphate layer being formed on all exposed metal surfaces. This is what clags cores and ends up the white crud on all the surfaces, usually due to the fact its started breaking down and the protective qualities are depleting.

DONT mix more than 50/50 and you dont need 50/50 unless your in freezing conditions. In temperate climates 70/30 water/OAT is sufficient but its easier to just by the premix.

Cat coolant also contains anti cavitation agents, stopping things like water pump cavitation and pitting around the upper cylinder from combustion.

There is a reason why its specified.

Cheers

Andrew

[PAT303]

Huh?,as clean as the day they were assembled?.Dunno,after 6 years working on Cat machines I saw plenty of corroded out systems and plenty of overheating issue's.Natrad makes $$$$ out of the coal mines. Pat

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Huh?,as clean as the day they were assembled?.Dunno,after 6 years working on Cat machines I saw plenty of corroded out systems and plenty of overheating issue's.Natrad makes $$$$ out of the coal mines. Pat

Thats machines mate, im talking about fastidious truck owners... When you have $300-400k of truck, you tend to look after them particularly when its your own money.
When i was machining 34 and 3500 V12's from machinery, they do come in looking like a blocked bog not to mention gallery pitting on the deck surface, but trucks are a different kettle when it comes to maintenance.

Cheers

Andrew.

[PAT303]

Sorry to disagree but we ran Cat OAT in everything and we had lots of corrosion,when I moved to Kal I worked on Komatsu's that also ran OAT and they corroded rads and coolers,one of the last jobs I did there was an ACCO with a straight six Cummins that was overheating and the whole system,the rad,thermo housing etc was corroded like it was running acid.I have no time for OAT coolant. Pat

[Fluids]

Maybe the quality of the water that's being used is suspect sometimes ?

I know from the last 25yrs in the pump industry ... water ain't water !

When I changed over my top radiator hose in the TD5 recently, I took the spigot off the head ... the water gallery I could view with a touch inside the head was spotless. The inside of the spigot and the hose was spotless. I drained, refilled, and drained after running up to temp 5x times, and caught all the drained liquid in a clean tub ... not 1 peice of foreign anything came out.

I more accustomed to doing this on green coolant vehicles and seeing plenty of junk in the drained water.

So far, so good, so I'll be sticking with the Nulon Red OAT.

Kev..

[robbotd5]

Maybe the quality of the water that's being used is suspect sometimes ?

I know from the last 25yrs in the pump industry ... water ain't water !

When I changed over my top radiator hose in the TD5 recently, I took the spigot off the head ... the water gallery I could view with a touch inside the head was spotless. The inside of the spigot and the hose was spotless. I drained, refilled, and drained after running up to temp 5x times, and caught all the drained liquid in a clean tub ... not 1 peice of foreign anything came out.

I more accustomed to doing this on green coolant vehicles and seeing plenty of junk in the drained water.

So far, so good, so I'll be sticking with the Nulon Red OAT.

Kev..
Kev, do you use distilled water? Thats what I use. Think i'm going to do a rebuild on the cooling system at 100 000km.
Regards
Robbo

[feraldisco]

I drained, refilled, and drained after running up to temp 5x times

Kev..


you must be a patient man Kev - was any coloured material coming out after the second time?

[LandyAndy]

Robbo ... I run my Nanocom in instrument mode on the dash.

Don't have an engine saver yet ... still tossing up between that or an EMS1

I do like the extra guages the Nanocom provides whilst driving ... and the 100deg RED flashing water temp' light for the better half :)

Idiot lights & alarms seem to work better than guages when wives are involved ... she's already cooked 2 engines ... no oil, oil light on, but I was only 5km from home so I thought I could make it .... sigh ...
That RED light annoys me no end.Fair chance the radiator is shot,I have a brand new one in the shed.My temps only went thru the roof since the flashable ecu and fueling upgrade were done.
Andrew

[Fluids]

Kev, do you use distilled water? Thats what I use. Think i'm going to do a rebuild on the cooling system at 100 000km.
Regards
Robbo

No Robbo ... just boring old tap water. Our water here seems to be pretty good ... so far. It's pretty close to pH neutral last time I checked it (years ago).

I think frequent changes go along way to preventing issues.

Kev..

[Fluids]

you must be a patient man Kev - was any coloured material coming out after the second time?


Yes, very patient :)

I think about the 4th drain/refill it had cleared up, and I did one more for good measure.

I didn't know what red coolant was in it, and was doing a 120k service (we'd not long bought the D2), and was going to the red nulon oat, so rather than mix nulon with coolant of unknown origin, I decided the best way was to completley flush the old stuff out. Next time will probably just be 2 drains/fills as I'll be using the same Nulon OAT.

Kev..

[Fluids]

That RED light annoys me no end.Fair chance the radiator is shot,I have a brand new one in the shed.My temps only went thru the roof since the flashable ecu and fueling upgrade were done.
Andrew

Andrew ... If it's that annoying, just adjust the RED temp warning LED light to go off at a higher temp .... say, 110deg+ C .... :p

;)

Kev..

Oh, and just for the record, I seem to be noticing that since winding up my wastegate, Nanocom shows water temps of approx' 0.5 to 1deg C higher than usual ... until I'm highway cruising, then it's back to 88.3 to 88.5 deg C.

[PAT303]

No Robbo ... just boring old tap water. Our water here seems to be pretty good ... so far. It's pretty close to pH neutral last time I checked it (years ago).

I think frequent changes go along way to preventing issues.

Kev..

No offence mate but how many times have you read that you should never fill your rad with tap water?.It doesn't matter that it's pH neutral,it's the suspended minerals that choke up the system. Pat

[scarry]

Unbelievable!!!!

Sometime ago when I began having Kandy(Disco 2003 Td5) serviced at MR Redcliffe they used a green coolant-- when I rang them (thinking all OAT coolants were red) they said no, theres is fine and they would know. The latest servive done last week and a full coolant flush and change it was RED!. They now use Zerex Dex-Cool, a valvoline product and it meets all the OAT etc. stuff so I guess its not the colour but the specs. that matter as does the Penrite, a hybrid of OAt and other inhibitors.

Steve

Interesting as mine came back with the green stuff in june,wonder why they changed?2yrs ago it came back with the green stuff,& i quieried them,they said it was fine.Also a Valvoline product.
Probably Dex-cool has better specs.Interestingly,JC,on this site uses green coolant in TD5's as well.
Now my TD5 is out of extended warranty,i will be doing it myself,so i gotta sort out what to use.

Interesting also ,over the last 20yrs of running a fleet of jap work vans,never ever rodded a radiator,or had a cooling system problem.Coolant was always flushed at 40k,and with distilled water.Always used the genuine coolant,which cost similar to any aftermarket stuff.
Vans were changed over at 6 yrs ,approx 250k

[LandyAndy]

OK
From replys recieved.The OAT coolant isnt "special" as such,its used by manufacturers to increase the service period of the coolant thus a lowering of service costs????
The older Green coolants are actually OK in the TD5 as long as the service interval is kept up????
I realise they are NOT to be mixed,its one or the other.
Comments please,got both a red and green TD5 at the moment.Happy to go either way as long as both vehicles match.
Bear in mind the D2 is about to recieve a new radiator/thermostat/waterpump.
Thanks People.
Andrew

[Zute]

I have been using the green in my Zook. I filled it at the spec' and it leaked every where. Now its just mostly water and not leaking.
The Disco when I bought it was filled with green and had the top hose balloon. When I replaced it some fittings had white corrosion. Since chaging to OAT (red) its all good.
Id use it in the Zook, but Oat is not good with copper.
When changing from green to red, make sure its all flushed out. As the two dont mix. They form a sludge.
One other thing, I wouldnt belieave these work shops that change the coolant. They use what every they have.
People lie.

[HangOver]

I have always just used green coolant from supercheap, cant remember the name. So you think red is better?

its full of plain water at th emoment while i check for leaks.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Andy, there is an anti corrosion part in the OAT,,
apart from that,, :spudnikwhat:

[Fluids]

No offence mate but how many times have you read that you should never fill your rad with tap water?.It doesn't matter that it's pH neutral,it's the suspended minerals that choke up the system. Pat


Thanks Pat ... actually, I don't think I ever had, until your post. :eek:

Valid point about suspended solids/minerals in solution. They do only come out of solution & form solids by chemical reaction though ... and you need the right chemical reaction to make this happen. Maybe I've just been dam lucky for the last 30yrs ?

Time for some more research!

Thanks for the tip!

Kev..

[ozscott]

Andy-I suppose the water pump is good insurance. I remember though some years ago having a gander at the one in my d1 v8 and the impeller was stainless and perfect at 165000 k. Housing was in very good condition too. Cheers

[Hoges]

FWIW The OAT coolant is especially effective in all-alloy engines. that's why it was developed. I personally wouldn't use it in engines with ally heads and iron blocks or engines with iron blocks and heads. Different chemistry re. galvanic action. For them I'd use the green ethylene glycol -based formulation.

Don't know much about CAT engines...are they iron or alloy?

For the past 10 years i've used the GMH OAT red stuff recommended for the LS1 engine in my V8 Commodore. 5yrs replacement 50/50 mix. Not a sceric of scale anywhere in 130,000km.

When I bought the P38 a few yrs ago I drained the coolant put in the GMH stuff as well...134,000km now and clean as a whistle. All done always with either distilled or demineralised water.

The Honda Jazz example earlier is getting to be par for the course... I'd expect a thermally stable OAT formulation to last 10 yrs in a properly serviced alloy engine...

[Rushy]

Why not use genuine, it costs no more and if things go wrong you have a legal comeback, colour means nothing nor does a radiator salesman selling his own brand of coolant, a green oval does.

Cheers

Rushy

[feraldisco]

Why not use genuine, it costs no more and if things go wrong you have a legal comeback, colour means nothing nor does a radiator salesman selling his own brand of coolant, a green oval does.

Cheers

Rushy

good luck with making a legal claim when your vehicle is out of factory warranty (as most on this site would be)... I would also take my advice on the best coolant from a non-dealer LR service agent rather than from a LR dealer...

[disco_thrasher]

did not no you could get Land Rover OEM coolant never seen it before never heard of it even tho i did part of my appretiship at land rover ;)

[gromit]

I just changed the coolant on my Ford Territory (4 years 125,000Km) and I looked at OAT vs glycol coolants.
I found the colour of the coolant isn't relevant because manufacturers dye both types different colours. If you're not sure what has been used previously then change it to a known type. I found one supplier that offers a coolant that apparently gives the advantages of both OAT & Glycol (?)and it can be supplied in 2 different colours ! That could confuse the next owner of the vehicle.
Another issue seems to be that if you do not dilute at the recommended rate the anti corrosion additives are not at the correct percentage so corrosion protection may be compromised. I found that with some large engines an additive pack is used on the first fill to get the anti-corrosion side of things working quickly.
You must change coolant at the suggested interval otherwise corrosion protection is reduced. Mixing different types of coolant will also compromise the service life of the coolant

I guess everyone has their own preferences eg. I do not personally buy the 'ready to use' stuff because I object to paying an inflated price for water. But, I do only use either distilled or tank water rather than tap water.
My Defender & Series 1 use glycol and the Territory now has Nulon Red OAT.

There's loads of stuff out there on the net but a lot is biased towards one or the other.
http://www.search-autoparts.com/searchautoparts/data/articlestandard/motorage/162005/156227/article.pdf

I guess whatever you choose then mix it as directed, change it at the correct interval and things should be OK as long as the product is from a reputable supplier......


Colin

[gromit]

Another interesting article for those of us that run older Land Rovers......

http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/coolantoatwarning.pdf


Colin

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

FWIW The OAT coolant is especially effective in all-alloy engines. that's why it was developed. I personally wouldn't use it in engines with ally heads and iron blocks or engines with iron blocks and heads. Different chemistry re. galvanic action. For them I'd use the green ethylene glycol -based formulation.

Don't know much about CAT engines...are they iron or alloy?

For the past 10 years i've used the GMH OAT red stuff recommended for the LS1 engine in my V8 Commodore. 5yrs replacement 50/50 mix. Not a sceric of scale anywhere in 130,000km.

When I bought the P38 a few yrs ago I drained the coolant put in the GMH stuff as well...134,000km now and clean as a whistle. All done always with either distilled or demineralised water.

The Honda Jazz example earlier is getting to be par for the course... I'd expect a thermally stable OAT formulation to last 10 yrs in a properly serviced alloy engine...

CAT engines are all cast iron.
It's the way in which OAT does it's thing that's different to green.
Why you can't use OAT in a standard green glycol system is due to the different seal materials used in the system.
OAT in a non OAT system will eat out waterpump seals and some other rubber components.
Whether it's used in cast or ally really makes no difference, however as previously stated, it's purpose designed for ally radiator cores but is still equally as good on cast iron and far better than non OAT for protection and life.
The best result I have ever seen from a coolant was the Toyota coolant. 1975 Corolla with 300 odd thou on the clock. Showroom condition owned by an old guy at a workshop. Used it from day dot and still had the original thermostat housing and on it's second thermostat!! Opened up it looked like a brand new inside, not one hint of cavitation or corrosion in it.

Have contemplated using it in both my LR's but just can't get past putting a Toyota product in my Landies.......
It's kinda like ****ing in your own nest......

[DeanoH]

I have just finished doing an engine change on a 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo (4 litre in line 6, pushrod, cast iron block and head). The engine had overheated and was then driven to destruction. The reason it had overheated was that the pressed steel impeller on the water pump had corrroded off the shaft ! There was very little water left in the block/radiator as the head and block were cracked big time. The alloy waterpump housing had serious pitting on the machined impeller face. The alloy thermosat housing was fine.
What I found most interesting was on flushing the radiator (copper/plastic tanks) prior to re-fitting was that the flush water came out dark blood red. Even after flushing for half an hour the water was still coming out a pink colour. Have never seen anything like it before. There was obviously a dark red residue of some kind in the radiator. Could this have been due to incorrect coolant ? Anyone seen this before ?
As far as the thrust of this thread goes it seems to me that Glycol based doesn't give problems but needs more frequent replacement than the OAT stuff which can give major problems and needs less frequent replacement. Think I'll stick with the Glycol based stuff.

Deano:)

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Dean, use whatever type is spec'd from factory.
There is no upgrading from green to OAT, its one or the other.
Like any other coolant it needs changing. The fact that an engine fails and it has gobs of red stuff flowing out of the block while flushing is more than likely to do with a lack of maintenance than a bad product. Mixing different types of coolant will also result in a similar situation although IIRC, GM Dexcool based coolants were the OE fluid and Dexcool has a history of similar results. Google it.

There are differing OAT's around with different SCA's added, and different blends of green coolants. Nulon for example do a green coolant that is totally glycol free and works exceptionally well. Add to or alternatively use Water Wetter from Redline.

In the Disco I run Caterpillar ELC. Comes from the same pot as Genuine LR OAT but has additional SCA's for cavitation and electrolysis protection amongst other things.

Green glycol is OK but the added benefits of the OAT arent there.
I would however tread carefully around any Dexcool product (GM OAT) as it has had a reasonably bad reputation over the years with its dislike of mixing with oxygen causing it to coagulate and block everything. GM do say that this issue has been fixed.
From lots of years of experience, I also spruke Toyota coolant in place of green. Expensive, but well worth it.

Another option I am investigating is the Cummins PGXL. PGXL is a polypropylene glycol based coolant, newish and pretty much proprietary to Cummins, but has excelent reports so far.
As I have a minor affiliation with Cummins/Fleetguard, I are looking at the option of PGXL and its suitability for Mercedes Benz, Detroit and Cat applications. At present, I need to carry about 1000-1200L of each type to cover service refills for our Merc, Cat, Detroit and Cummins powered engines.
Mercedes Benz use Castrol NF but coolant changes are 4-5 times higher in time/mileage than Cat or Detroit engines.

But as said, go with the factory recomendation, and look for improved types within the spec.

Cheers

Andrew

[RoverP6B]

In the 36 years since my Rover was built, the radiator has been replaced every 10 years or so (new core,..same end tanks)..so say every 100,000km. I used SQ36 (a corrosion inhibitor) until 2007 and now run Penrite AF/AB @ 33% in my 4.6. My radiator is brass as it always has been,..the end tanks are the originals form 1974.

The only areas of corrosion that I have noted is on the outside of the aluminium alloy water pump,..the fittings that accept the three hoses does illustrate pit corrosion where the rubber hoses cover the pipes. The original water pump lasted for 16 years and even then the degree of corrosion as mentioned was not beyond repair.

Inside the inlet manifold where the thermostat resides, there is also a small amount of corrosion occuring to the steel insert into which the thermostat sits.

So pretty good I would say for 36 years.

Ron.

[DeanoH]

Pulled this from a 2008 US Grassroots Motorsports Forum.

.........................................Dexcool ate gaskets on land Rovers when they switched...but they were Land Rovers so instead of leaking at the first service they leaked ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR! I'm a 10 year LR tech and I saw it happen more than once. Rover changed the gasket coatings and they leak normally again https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/995.jpg If I weren't worried about the seals in my older stuff not liking it I'd switch to it. As discussed when it hits air it goops up, making leak diagnosis a snap. If it goops up IN your engine its because you have other problems-Dexcool is only the messenger......................

Wasn't one of GM'sgreatest products. Being the US, lots of litigation.

Reading online I reckon what happened to my ex-engine was it had a mixture of glycol and OAT coolant. On flushing the radiator it was like it was full of red dye. Not dirty brown rust colour or red as in Pilbara soil but red as in Dexron ATF. Amazing. As I said after half an hour of flushing still running pink.

Deano:)

[85 county]

No Robbo ... just boring old tap water. Our water here seems to be pretty good ... so far. It's pretty close to pH neutral last time I checked it (years ago).

I think frequent changes go along way to preventing issues.

Kev..
Mate i worked with water, and i have never seen tap water PH neutral. but having said that you don’t want tap water PH neutral, if it was it would drop all the minerals out of solution and block up all the water mains etc etc.

The only solution is to have water with no minerals in solution at all, and then you can drop the PH to neutral. tap water is usually about Ph 7.2-7.4 and up to 2000 ppm in solution ( sea water is about 24 000 ppm)

Here is another thing, adding CO2 to water to manage the Ph will also push the alkalinity up over time which will have the effect of pushing up alkali and that’s not a good thing.

[clubagreenie]

Not all OAT's are red, not all reds are OAT's. Some reds are neither.

I'm using, since fitting a new 4.6, so there's no mixture a red OAT plus redline water wetter. There's no sign (yet) of sludging, residueor any particulates.

Have to agree with the comments on the Toyota coolant, on the 7M (and iron/ally engines of the same era) use anything else and the heads will rot out.

[ozscott]

Just bringing and old thread back to life. I just had the heads re-conditioned, with porting and new cam, followers and timing gear. British Offroad used green coolant. They said they dont like red - too corrosive to hoses and everything else. Having said that my water pump only just failed at 200,000 - had the vehicle since new.

So i looks like now I will keep green coolant. They know their stuff.

Cheers

[rick130]

[snip]

Another option I am investigating is the Cummins PGXL. PGXL is a polypropylene glycol based coolant, newish and pretty much proprietary to Cummins, but has excelent reports so far.

[snip]
Cheers

Andrew

I've been using it for the last twelve-eighteen months in the Patrol and not quite that long in the Landy, so can't report on anything really so far, other than it's a cool colour. :D

The reason for changing ?
Iveco parts are 30km away vs 100km for Caltex, and I can buy the Cummins coolant at a better price ;)

[edit] sorry for answering a two year old post Andrew :angel:
and it's been renamed PG Platinum.

[Rick Fischer]

This sort of discussion will go on and on. However I will make this point.

Auto manufacturers count every cent per vehicle! If they thought that the "green" was sufficient that is all they would use.

If a manufacturer specifies Red (particular spec) and it is more expensive there is a real reason. Normally that will be due to the combination of materials used in the engine and the susceptibility of those materials to galvanic corrosion in combination with the internal operating temperatures of the engine.

It really isn't in any operator's interest to try and second guess a manufacturer's "Materials Engineers"

[ozscott]

This sort of discussion will go on and on. However I will make this point.

Auto manufacturers count every cent per vehicle! If they thought that the "green" was sufficient that is all they would use.

If a manufacturer specifies Red (particular spec) and it is more expensive there is a real reason. Normally that will be due to the combination of materials used in the engine and the susceptibility of those materials to galvanic corrosion in combination with the internal operating temperatures of the engine.

It really isn't in any operator's interest to try and second guess a manufacturer's "Materials Engineers"

If manufacturers got things right all the time there would be no need for customising to make things better.

Cheers

[Tombie]

If manufacturers got things right all the time there would be no need for customising to make things better.

Cheers

Better is always subjective..

"Optimised for purpose" may be a better description.

For example, if I decided to do a lap of the planet in my D2 TD5 I would be de-tuning it to account for poorer fuels.

And lowering it back down a bit and running a more common tyre size.

[ozscott]

I'm not a chemist and all I can do is read, observe and talk to people. I know the red was in each time my heater gasket under the throttle chopped out. British offroad know their stuff. I'm happy to go with the change and will report back in a few years. Cheers

[tolemac]

When I had Natrad replace my radiator in my 1983 Ford (alloy head), I got the same rave, and went with their inhibitor, as "they would know", instead of Nulon long life. They serviced the cooling system each year as part of warranty condition. After about 3 years.....my head corroded through and it was time for an engine rebuild. I don't trust Natrad.

[d2dave]

I've been using it for the last twelve-eighteen months in the Patrol and not quite that long in the Landy, so can't report on anything really so far, other than it's a cool colour. :D

The reason for changing ?
Iveco parts are 30km away vs 100km for Caltex, and I can buy the Cummins coolant at a better price ;)

[edit] sorry for answering a two year old post Andrew :angel:
and it's been renamed PG Platinum.

I am now running the same. My reason. I reckon it is as good as anything around, It is not expensive, comes premixed so no need to worry about water quality, lifetime never needs changing and is compatible with other coolants.

Not that I want to mix it, but when flushing if any old stuff is still present it does not matter.


Are all coolants created equal? - YouTube

[Hugh_D]

Maybe the quality of the water that's being used is suspect sometimes ?

I know from the last 25yrs in the pump industry ... water ain't water !

When I changed over my top radiator hose in the TD5 recently, I took the spigot off the head ... the water gallery I could view with a touch inside the head was spotless. The inside of the spigot and the hose was spotless. I drained, refilled, and drained after running up to temp 5x times, and caught all the drained liquid in a clean tub ... not 1 peice of foreign anything came out.

I more accustomed to doing this on green coolant vehicles and seeing plenty of junk in the drained water.

So far, so good, so I'll be sticking with the Nulon Red OAT.

Kev..
Kev,
I realise this is an old thread but very interesting. I need to add/replace the coolant in my 110 2006 Defender, after modifying top radiator hose to accommodate temp sender. Tried to buy Castrol Radicool SF-O but no joy, are you still using and happy with Nulon Red OAT?
Hugh.

[LandyAndy]

Hugh.
CAT do a premixed OAT coolant,around $120 for 20LT from Westrac.
Ive been running CAT coolant in both my TD5s for a while now.No issues at all.
Andrew

[Davehoos]

Have a read before using the cat stuff. we test long life coolant for the backhoe I think was on a 1000 hr service. It required we use long life extender additive to get to 4000 hrs then replace.-cant remember but additive was half cost of drum of premixed. read on the bottle it refered to buckets of road KM between replacments.


I often read through these, as a mechanic I often see the the driveway heated discusions about this mine field.
some big brand cars alloy radiators and heater core lasting days. alloy heads months.


I my new job we carry genuine products and test with heavy equipment-but they are covers by fleet insurance policy.


factory coolant.
on the 110 assembly line we used a product. it was red. you get there with a small funnel and screw driver to jamb the coffe cup of crystals in.--cant say I want that in my vehicle.

started in this new job and their was the drum of the same product-Im not using..


old time radiator gents used water and zink blocks--for antifreeze you use a tarp.

[isuzurover]

Ethylene vs. Propylene Glycol

Early in your fluid selection process, you should consider what local requirements might impact your choice. Local regulations or a specific application may require that you decide between the use of an ethylene or a propylene glycol-based fluid.

In most heat transfer applications ethylene glycol-based fluids are your best choice because of their superior heat transfer efficiency. This efficiency is largely due to the lower viscosity of ethylene glycol solutions. Another benefit of this viscosity advantage is lower power consumption for re-circulation pumps and a lower minimum operating temperature. DOWTHERM™ SR-1, DOWTHERM 4000, or DOWCAL™ 10 fluids are EG based fluids.

Propylene glycols are most commonly used in applications in which low acute oral toxicity is required, or for freeze protection where incidental contact with drinking water is possible. In some areas, use of propylene glycols is required by local regulation. Propylene glycol-based fluids are used extensively in food processing applications, but ethylene glycol-based fluids can also be used in some instances. The ingredients in DOWFROST™ and DOWCAL N inhibited propylene glycol-based fluids are generally recognized as safe by the U.S. FDA1. Since these products also have the appropriate approvals, they can be used in immersion freezing of wrapped foods and other food applications where ethylene glycol is not permitted. See Food Product Chilling/Freezing. Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) by the US Food and Administration, propylene glycol based DOWFROST can be used in immersion of freezing wrapped foods and other applications where ethylene glycol is not permitted. DOWFROST HD, DOWFROST, DOWCAL 20 fluids are PG based fluids.

Ethylene vs Propylene Glycol | Heat Transfer Fluids | The Dow Chemic (http://www.dow.com/heattrans/support/selection/ethylene-vs-propylene.htm)

[Hugh_D]

Hugh.
CAT do a premixed OAT coolant,around $120 for 20LT from Westrac.
Ive been running CAT coolant in both my TD5s for a while now.No issues at all.
Andrew



Andrew,
Thanks for the reply. I ended up with Nulon Red OAT as available locally.
Hugh

[Roverlord off road spares]

Ethylene vs Propylene Glycol | Heat Transfer Fluids | The Dow Chemic (http://www.dow.com/heattrans/support/selection/ethylene-vs-propylene.htm)
I don't under stand this if you are comparing the 2.

"acute oral toxicity" is not "OAT" organic acid technology.

[isuzurover]

I don't under stand this if you are comparing the 2.

"acute oral toxicity" is not "OAT" organic acid technology.

Not sure what you are trying to say?

Rick and others brought up PG-based coolants - such as Cummins. PG based coolants are a 3rd technology. I was simply showing a comparison of EG-based coolant vs PG-based coolant.



Quoted again with the important parts highlighted:

Ethylene vs. Propylene Glycol

Early in your fluid selection process, you should consider what local requirements might impact your choice. Local regulations or a specific application may require that you decide between the use of an ethylene or a propylene glycol-based fluid.

In most heat transfer applications ethylene glycol-based fluids are your best choice because of their superior heat transfer efficiency. This efficiency is largely due to the lower viscosity of ethylene glycol solutions. Another benefit of this viscosity advantage is lower power consumption for re-circulation pumps and a lower minimum operating temperature. DOWTHERM™ SR-1, DOWTHERM 4000, or DOWCAL™ 10 fluids are EG based fluids.

Propylene glycols are most commonly used in applications in which low acute oral toxicity is required, or for freeze protection where incidental contact with drinking water is possible. In some areas, use of propylene glycols is required by local regulation. Propylene glycol-based fluids are used extensively in food processing applications, but ethylene glycol-based fluids can also be used in some instances. The ingredients in DOWFROST™ and DOWCAL N inhibited propylene glycol-based fluids are generally recognized as safe by the U.S. FDA1. Since these products also have the appropriate approvals, they can be used in immersion freezing of wrapped foods and other food applications where ethylene glycol is not permitted. See Food Product Chilling/Freezing. Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) by the US Food and Administration, propylene glycol based DOWFROST can be used in immersion of freezing wrapped foods and other applications where ethylene glycol is not permitted. DOWFROST HD, DOWFROST, DOWCAL 20 fluids are PG based fluids.


OAT and EG-based coolants are basically the same, just that you should not mix them. PG and EG coolants can be mixed.

[rick130]

Hugh.
CAT do a premixed OAT coolant,around $120 for 20LT from Westrac.
Ive been running CAT coolant in both my TD5s for a while now.No issues at all.
Andrew

The CAT OAT is the same Texaco based OAT coolant (with a couple of supplemental additives) as used OE by Land Rover.

[Will Wallace]

Rick,

I'm in Townsville. 27 and 1 hour behind you. It's too early for this.
Go to bed.

Hahahahaha.

Bill

[rick130]

Ethylene vs Propylene Glycol | Heat Transfer Fluids | The Dow Chemic (http://www.dow.com/heattrans/support/selection/ethylene-vs-propylene.htm)

The slight downside of PG coolants.

Not sure if I mentioned it earlier, but OAT's have a heat transfer ability better than silicate based (conventional) coolants, roughly half way between silicate based coolant and straight water.

HOATs, the latest technology, are somewhere closer to OAT's than conventional coolants.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Not sure what you are trying to say?

Rick and others brought up PG-based coolants - such as Cummins. PG based coolants are a 3rd technology. I was simply showing a comparison of EG-based coolant vs PG-based coolant.



Quoted again with the important parts highlighted:



OAT and EG-based coolants are basically the same, just that you should not mix them. PG and EG coolants can be mixed.
disregard my post........to late for me to read and comprehend

[ozscott]

So we are 65,000k down the road and the green coolant is doing very well. I have an injector that isnt and lost compression over time in one pot because of it - washing the oil off the bore. So Im putting in a 97/98 P38A 4.6. It would have had green coolant as standard as did my 95 D1 3.9. Im going to continue to use green.

The D1 had a brass and copper raditor. The D2 went to alloy. Thats the only difference in components that I can see that would warrant thinking hard about going to green on a D2 - otherwise hoses, water pump etc are all the same.

My alloy radiator is showing no signs of problems or gunge, so I am happy to keep up the green coolant. It never runs hot so heat transfer bla bla is just not an issue.

Cheers

[Tins]

I have read every post on this old thread and am still none the wiser. I have to take the head off my 300 D1. it has green in it now. Should I keep it green? I was going to use Scania pink, as I have access to it, but now I'm not sure. Caltex orange is another option I have available. Both claim compatibility with all materials, including alloy, various types of seals and hoses and copper.
If green, then what about Castrol Radicool? It's readily available, and comes as a 33% premix.

[PAT303]

My advice is to use Texaco Ultra cool gold in your Tdi,one bottle from super cheap and the rest demineralised water from woolies. Pat

[ozscott]

I ended up using Dexcool. Time will tell. On a sealed system it should be very good. Runs cool anyway. Cheers

[Fluids]

Been a while .... I'm about 65,000km on and all is well. I changed the radiator due to breaking the small retun spigot near the top radiator hose maybe last August. Radiator was 10yrs old, and been running OAT since I've owned it, and it had red (assume OAT) in it when I bought it.

The old radiator is spotless inside (as best as I can see). All the internal galleries I could see into in the engine are as clean as a whistle. A mechanic mate who helped me commented on how clean the cooling system was! ... Yes, still running Nulon OAT mixed 50/50 with tap water .... Yeah, yeah, I know ... Should be distilled/demineralized .... But works for me ... 6 years roughly and all is good ... YMMV :)

I'll see how I'm traveling when someone dredges this thread up in another 6 years :p

[defmec]

Wow no one has mentioned anything about the conductivity in green coolant and alloy engines. Oat coolant is better at stopping voltage through the system . electrolysis + alloy = not good :p. Maybe why my rover v8s running glycol green coolant always had white chalky crap around the hoses .

[PAT303]

The water pump in my Tdi lasted 17 years and my radiator is still going strong after 18 years running Glycol,show me a system running OAT that matches that and I'll listen to what you say. :) Pat

[Tins]

Wow no one has mentioned anything about the conductivity in green coolant and alloy engines. Oat coolant is better at stopping voltage through the system . electrolysis + alloy = not good :p. Maybe why my rover v8s running glycol green coolant always had white chalky crap around the hoses .

I remember the debate about positive versus negative earth and car body corrosion. I don't think either side won, although most cars these days are negative earth.. Electrolysis + steel. Who knows? As that bozo from the IPCC used to say, Voodoo Science.
Not saying you're wrong; rather, I'm saying there has to be a limit somewhere. Nothing lasts forever.
I'd be very interested in reading anything on conductivity in coolants if you have any links. I used to come down on the positive earth side of that old argument. I wouldn't mind having another look.

[ozscott]

Pat your tdi would have a copper radiator. The d2 has alloy. Cheers

[defmec]

The water pump in my Tdi lasted 17 years and my radiator is still going strong after 18 years running Glycol,show me a system running OAT that matches that and I'll listen to what you say. :) Pat

Only 3 years to go on my td5 till its 17 years old .original water pump and radiator . I just replaced the top hose and couldn't believe how clean the inlet to the head was .

[rick130]

My Tdi was 11 years on Land Rover/Caltex/Dexcool OAT (from the factory ! It was the last of the Tdi's) and for the last five years on Cummins-Fleetguard HOAT and the core was still fine and clean and leak free until I had it re-cored with a HD Redback core this year.

Ok, I'm on my second water pump, I'd have to go back through the forum to see when the original went, I think it was around the 250,000km mark where the bearing failed, not the seal. ;)

[rick130]

Re stray current, nothing will save aluminum from it, nothing.

If you have a bad earth and the electrical system uses your cooling system as a circuit it can corrode through a radiator in a matter of weeks or days, so I've been told.

I've lost two Patrol radiators to it, both times was a dodgy earth connection on the battery.

[PAT303]

Only 3 years to go on my td5 till its 17 years old .original water pump and radiator . I just replaced the top hose and couldn't believe how clean the inlet to the head was .

Cool,I'll see you in three years :p. Pat

[PAT303]

My Tdi was 11 years on Land Rover/Caltex/Dexcool OAT (from the factory ! It was the last of the Tdi's) and for the last five years on Cummins-Fleetguard HOAT and the core was still fine and clean and leak free until I had it re-cored with a HD Redback core this year.

Ok, I'm on my second water pump, I'd have to go back through the forum to see when the original went, I think it was around the 250,000km mark where the bearing failed, not the seal. ;)

I'm not changing my stance on OAT Rick,I've got too many memories digging out corroded bolts and heli coiling threads to do that :mad:. Pat

[superquag]

Green (glycol) is better... if for no other low-tech reason that the pong of a leaking hose/radiator/etc. is both unmistakable and panic-inducing... both valuable signaling characteristics ! :o:o:o

[rick130]

Green (glycol) is better... if for no other low-tech reason that the pong of a leaking hose/radiator/etc. is both unmistakable and panic-inducing... both valuable signaling characteristics ! :o:o:o


OAT is glycol too !

It's just the inhibitor package that use an organic acid (a carboxylic acid) as the inhibitor rather than silicates and/or nitrates.

IIRC the problem with Texaco/Caltex Dexcool/Land Rover OAT in it's original formulation was it used 2EHA as the acid, and this reacted with silicon based seals, softening and creating water leaks, and reacted with air creating a god awful sludge in some engines.
I think most all OATS don't use 2EHA anymore.

[ozscott]

This is the one i am using. The 4.6 is certainly running cool with 84_87 water temp typical.

http://www.acdelco.com.au/coolant_dexcool.html

Cheers

[ozscott]

Is does contain 2-Ethylhexanoic acid. My understanding that the early problems with some V6 GM motors was.due to the gasket composition not being compatible....i think that is a thing of the past. Cheers

Cheers

[rick130]

Is does contain 2-Ethylhexanoic acid. My understanding that the early problems with some V6 GM motors was.due to the gasket composition not being compatible....i think that is a thing of the past. Cheers

Cheers

Yep, it was a silicon based seal they used on valley gaskets and the coolant went past the seal.

Oops.