One versus Twins versus Remote Canister Shocks

[pando]

Hi Guys,

D1 getting a suspension upgrade shortly, was going to replace with used +2" OME springs and shocks out of my dead disco but I've decided to spend the dosh on a new kit.

Research both here and the internet has brought up a varied range of different setups, just want to query as to the differences between a normal singular shockie install, going for twin shocks or the remote canister style?

I guess why would you need to go beyond a single? Whats the pros and cons surrounding each of the different setups?

[djam1]

I would be inclined to use Bilstein or Koni Shocks
There is a lot of rubbish on the Australian Market pretty paint and making promises that may not cut it.
Unless you are doing the Paris Dakar either of the above will serve you well.
Even if you were doing the Paris Dakar I am sure there is a combination of Bilstein shocks that have already done it.

[rick130]

Without going into technicalities, dual shocks and remote reservoir shocks are for racing or heavily overloaded and driven vehicles pounding along heavily corrugated roads for hours on end.

All they do is increase oil volume and hence heat dissipation, (reduces/eliminates shock fade)
For the average punter it isn't needed or is necessary, and agree with djam, Koni, Billie's, Delphi/de Carbon, OME (particularly their LTR) are probably the pick of the off the shelf/bolt in to stock mount dampers.

[slug_burner]

Hi Guys,

D1 getting a suspension upgrade shortly, was going to replace with used +2" OME springs and shocks out of my dead disco but I've decided to spend the dosh on a new kit.

Research both here and the internet has brought up a varied range of different setups, just want to query as to the differences between a normal singular shockie install, going for twin shocks or the remote canister style?

I guess why would you need to go beyond a single? Whats the pros and cons surrounding each of the different setups?

When your shocks are working they heat the fluid, the more fluid in the shock the longer they will work properly as it will take longer to heat a greater volume of fluid. Dual shocks provide twice as much fluid, remote canisters also provide additional fuild, big mother shocks also provide more fluid check out the Koni Raids for big mothers. The ability to cool the fluid is also improved with increased surface area.

Someone that really knows what they are talking about will come along soon:) Like rick 130 who beat me to it anyway

[rick130]

When your shocks are working they heat the fluid, the more fluid in the shock the longer they will work properly as it will take longer to heat a greater volume of fluid. Dual shocks provide twice as much fluid, remote canisters also provide additional fuild, big mother shocks also provide more fluid check out the Koni Raids for big mothers. The ability to cool the fluid is also improved with increased surface area.

Someone that really knows what they are talking about will come along soon:) Like rick 130 who beat me to it anyway

:D
Forgot to mention that larger piston diameters (and by default dual shockies) also reduce the internal pressures required to damp any particular force and hence reduce heat build up, cavitation, fade etc.

Nitrogen pressure ('gas' shocks) also reduce cavitation substantially, reducing the the onset of fade.

Please note, 'gas' shocks still use oil as the damping medium, they just use nitrogen pressure to reduce cavitation/fade.

Two gas systems are employed, emulsion style gas pressure where the nitrogen is charged directly into the fluid space (Koni low pressure twin tubes, OME, etc) and mono-tube high pressure types, where the nitrogen is separated from the oil by a floating divider piston, either in the base of the damper a la 6100 series Bilstein, mono-tube Koni (30 Series) or de-Carbon, or in the remote can as in some Bilstein 7100 Series, OME LTR's etc.
The floating piston style is more effective at reducing the onset of cavitation and fade as the gas and oil is separated but the emulsion style has some advantages in bump valving and compliance which is nice in road going vehicles.

[Slunnie]

You pretty much wont get fade with shocks that have the oil and gas seperated. The oil cant airate if the gas is physically seperated like in shocks such as the Bilstein and remote canister shocks made by a range of manufacturers. Every other design will fade.

With dual shocks you are adding shocks to increase the damping and/or to reduce the heat buildup in the shocks which may induce fade where the shocks lose their effectiveness. You might need this for a range of reasons, such as listed above by Rick. If you use or spec up a shock that is stiff or is going to work hard, then it will generate heat - if you share the load through 2 shocks then you reduce the heat level in both. Thats the advantage. Less heat and so fade, or more damping force.

You can spec a shock up to work the same as dual shocks, but there are 2 limiting factors heat and so fade and the ability for the bushes and shock body to physically withstand the forces. I have spec'd up my rear shocks to work with a similar force to dual shocks, and I need to run poly bushes for them to stay together. I also run Bilsteins which don't seem to fade even with the most horrific pounding. In comparison, triple shell foam cell shocks like Rancho I can fade in 15-20mins on a fast dirt road and they will never recover.

[frantic]

If your going billies have a look at the U.S sites (Lucky8 etc) as with the exchange rate you will save large $$. Also you may need to change the mounting points for them. The 7100 looks like an excellent shock and if I was doing/planning a large amount of outback touring they would be the ones instead of my OME's but they are also about $100+ per shock more from the U.S.
Bilstein (http://www.bilsteinus.com/offroad.php)
Lucky8 Llc. - Take the road less traveled... (http://www.lucky8llc.com/Index.asp)

[Psimpson7]

I run LTR Remote cannisters on mine and have done for a few years and they have been pretty good, although I did break one, which ARB replaced under warranty.

I will be going to 7100's next I think

[Tusker]

I run dual fronts. Shocks can be used to control body roll to a degree.

If you run holey bushes or similar to improve off-road flex, on-road control suffers. You lose the anti-roll bar effect the radius arms have on the front axle housing.

So on-road, the front end just kneels & turn-in is horrible. You can fix this with beefing up shocks.

Downside is there's a mismatch between optimal spring rates & shock rates, so the front can feel too stiff sometimes. It can pitch more than normal. Highway speeds are fine though.

I prefer the stiff front end offroad actually. Uphill the front doesn't contribute much, so lifting a wheel isn't a big deal. Downhill you have more control, the wallowing as you slip off rocks is gone.

Overall I think dual front shocks & soft radius arms bushes are a good on-road off-road compromise. At the expense of replacing said bushes every year.

Regards
Max P

[pando]

Thanks Guys,

If your running say twin rears, are these valved differently to say a single installation for it to work correctly?

I'm guessing that twice the shockie equals twice the opposition to movement, hence would need to be setup differently?

[rick130]

Thanks Guys,

If your running say twin rears, are these valved differently to say a single installation for it to work correctly?

I'm guessing that twice the shockie equals twice the opposition to movement, hence would need to be setup differently?

Yep, unless it's, say a 130 and you install 'standard' Land Rover rear shocks which are generally valved for a Disco or RRC so you will then be getting close to the money with a dual setup due to the spring rates used on a 130.

[isuzu110]

I went through this dilemma on my defender about 6 months ago.

I spoke to a commercial tour operator that had a defender with a read dual setup and their advice was it was overly complicated and not worth it for the fuss.

I spoke to Ward at Graeme Coopers and he advised against duals in the rear unless you were wallowing through endless small dunes that were resulting in full suspension travel up and down for hours.

I just went single ...

[rick130]

I run dual fronts. Shocks can be used to control body roll to a degree.

If you run holey bushes or similar to improve off-road flex, on-road control suffers. You lose the anti-roll bar effect the radius arms have on the front axle housing.

So on-road, the front end just kneels & turn-in is horrible. You can fix this with beefing up shocks.

Downside is there's a mismatch between optimal spring rates & shock rates, so the front can feel too stiff sometimes. It can pitch more than normal. Highway speeds are fine though.

I prefer the stiff front end offroad actually. Uphill the front doesn't contribute much, so lifting a wheel isn't a big deal. Downhill you have more control, the wallowing as you slip off rocks is gone.

Overall I think dual front shocks & soft radius arms bushes are a good on-road off-road compromise. At the expense of replacing said bushes every year.

Regards
Max P

It all comes down to the valving.

Any damper can be valved that is unbelievably stiff in low speed bump and rebound so that the car sits dead flat on corner entry, just like having a big anti-roll bar on it (but will bleed down and roll if the corner is long enough) and still have 'optimal' valving for medium and high speed hits, but ride quality suffers as it's jiggly as hell over small, high frequency bumps as the damper 'blows through' the low speed bleed (and/or preloaded stack) and starts to work on the main stack.

A larger piston, or dual dampers make this easier as you can generate the forces need faster with the minimal piston/shaft movements and slow shaft speeds involved.
This is where a Bilstein for example has an advantage over a twin tube Koni or OME, piston size can make a real difference in performance if trying for something a bit out of the norm.

[Tusker]

It all comes down to the valving.

Any damper can be valved that is unbelievably stiff in low speed bump and rebound so that the car sits dead flat on corner entry, just like having a big anti-roll bar on it (but will bleed down and roll if the corner is long enough) and still have 'optimal' valving for medium and high speed hits, but ride quality suffers as it's jiggly as hell over small, high frequency bumps as the damper 'blows through' the low speed bleed (and/or preloaded stack) and starts to work on the main stack.

A larger piston, or dual dampers make this easier as you can generate the forces need faster with the minimal piston/shaft movements and slow shaft speeds involved.
This is where a Bilstein for example has an advantage over a twin tube Koni or OME, piston size can make a real difference in performance if trying for something a bit out of the norm.

I agree but prefer to stick with off-the-shelf stuff so that bits are easier to get/replace in the sticks. Hence the standard duals instead of custom.

Regards
Max P

[justinc]

I agree but prefer to stick with off-the-shelf stuff so that bits are easier to get/replace in the sticks. Hence the standard duals instead of custom.

Regards
Max P


Exactly why I prefer dual fitment, 'off the shelf' is good for spares, you have 1 left incase of a failure, and the cost of twin standard shocks is much less than say one Koni raid or similar.
I was looking at custom single units a while back, but at $900 a corner it was getting up there...:(

JC

[PAT303]

Koni shocks are valved perfect for disco's and when I fitted them to mine it made my D1 the best vehicle I have ever driven on dirt roads.I would not consider any other shock. Pat

[Slunnie]

Exactly why I prefer dual fitment, 'off the shelf' is good for spares, you have 1 left incase of a failure, and the cost of twin standard shocks is much less than say one Koni raid or similar.
I was looking at custom single units a while back, but at $900 a corner it was getting up there...:(

JC
:eek:

Thats too much!

Try Steve (sales) and Paul (race modifications) at Sydney shocks for custom Bilsteins. Waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than that.

[Panya]

Justinc mentioned it - if you are driving bad roads an advantage to dual setups is that if one breaks you can continue pretty much unaffected. I have had a single rear break on a bad road and a 50 or so km stretch of road became a 2hr PITA as there was no shock to keep the spring in place and every pothole it would slip out - meaning stop car, get out, get hilift, lift car, push back into seat, take down hilift, get in car, drive 5m, hear spring dislocate, stop car, get out, get hilift and so on. The spring disclocates even driving at a snails pace because being a Landrover articulation is pretty good on a rough road! Now I always carry one spare if I have a single setup; much happier with dual though because of the peace of mind it gives.

[slug_burner]

Justinc mentioned it - if you are driving bad roads an advantage to dual setups is that if one breaks you can continue pretty much unaffected. I have had a single rear break on a bad road and a 50 or so km stretch of road became a 2hr PITA as there was no shock to keep the spring in place and every pothole it would slip out - meaning stop car, get out, get hilift, lift car, push back into seat, take down hilift, get in car, drive 5m, hear spring dislocate, stop car, get out, get hilift and so on. The spring disclocates even driving at a snails pace because being a Landrover articulation is pretty good on a rough road! Now I always carry one spare if I have a single setup; much happier with dual though because of the peace of mind it gives.

A rope can be used to limit articulation and stop the spring from slipping out.

[Slunnie]

Justinc mentioned it - if you are driving bad roads an advantage to dual setups is that if one breaks you can continue pretty much unaffected. I have had a single rear break on a bad road and a 50 or so km stretch of road became a 2hr PITA as there was no shock to keep the spring in place and every pothole it would slip out - meaning stop car, get out, get hilift, lift car, push back into seat, take down hilift, get in car, drive 5m, hear spring dislocate, stop car, get out, get hilift and so on. The spring disclocates even driving at a snails pace because being a Landrover articulation is pretty good on a rough road! Now I always carry one spare if I have a single setup; much happier with dual though because of the peace of mind it gives.
Just carry a spare. If you're under there pulling out the broken one, its not much more to put in a spare one.

[rick130]

I agree but prefer to stick with off-the-shelf stuff so that bits are easier to get/replace in the sticks. Hence the standard duals instead of custom.

Regards
Max P


:eek:

Thats too much!

Try Steve (sales) and Paul (race modifications) at Sydney shocks for custom Bilsteins. Waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than that.

or Bakers in Melbourne for re-valving Billies too, very reasonably priced for revalving and bloody good at what they do.

For Koni, Proven Products (talk to Jeff) or Toperformance (used to be Ric Kemp, not sure these days)
Both companies can do specials too, (eg Unimformed has 88 Series Merc truck shocks on the rear of his 110 that bolt straight in) or just re-valve stock Land Rover Koni's or 80 Series TLC ones, etc.

I've never sent Koni's away, (always done them myself) but both companies are very reasonable on their re-valve/rebuild pricing. <edit> actually that's not right, I've sent many sets away over the years to both Proven Products and Toperformance and the re-valve cost was nominal, just haven't sent a Landy set away, I've been able to source genuine parts and excellent info/advise from the importers. ;)

[miles]

I have fitted Bilstien shocks to my disco 1. That was over four years ago.
I reasonately had them tested by the agent here in Perth and they were OK, still in good nick.

The first set of springs I fitted were Lovels. Totally wrong for disco's. First set were over sprung way way too hard. They changed them. Next set were too soft, good highway ride, and they were suppost to give a 50mm lift. Well with in 12 months the disco's body height was back to standard and sagging a bit in the rear.

Here in WA I have read and heard many tales of people doing the CSR and experiencing shockies failure. The experts have put this down to having too hard a pressure in the tyres and recomended to posible travellers not to run anything higher than 25psi, especially over the corrigated stuff.

My last 4by was a Pajeo, and I fitted Lovels with a 50 lift and Bilstiens to that. It was great no problemos. (that is until my son rolled it and wrote it off)

[miles]

Just rembered.... Adding to my previus thread, imprtant to note:-

When I complained to the people who did my suspension with the first set of Lovel Springs, they sent me off to see the WA agent for Bilstien shocks

Now Arnie (the Bilstien man) not only discoved the springs were wrong but the Bilstien shocks supplied by the suspension mob were wrong too. He believed the recomendation in the Bil. Catalogue was wrong. He changed them to a set (which he recomended) with different valve settings. At no charge to me.

The point I would like make is if you are going to get new shocks, talk to some one who knows about the product he is selling and does not just get the info out of the catalogue.

[PAT303]

I agree with the above,my billies lasted on my defender for 8 years including a lap of Oz but as stock fitment I think Koni's are better on a D1.I have Koni's on my defender now and the rears are alittle to soft in rebound. Pat

[uninformed]

NB: while the merc front truck shocks are eye to pin and have pretty much the same valving as a 110 defender, they are 12 inch stroke so need to have the shock mount modded to suit the shock length...

Serg

[rick130]

NB: while the merc front truck shocks are eye to pin and have pretty much the same valving as a 110 defender, they are 12 inch stroke so need to have the shock mount modded to suit the shock length...

Serg

Thanks, forgot to mention that in my haste this morning.


FWIW, King are doing bolt in GU Patrol shocks now, ie. pin/pin urethane bush fronts and eye/eye urethane bush rears, 2.5" OD, remote can and bump adjustment on the can. Can do longer than stock lengths too :D

I'll email the link plus some others of interest.