1/4" off set 2b rims

[juddy]

I have the original 2b rims on my 2b FC, and have just got some new Michelin XZL 255/100x16, I also have a full set of Landrover 1 tonne 6.5 J X 16 Steel rims,, iam concerned that the tyres may stick outside the line of the vehicle being a wider. What are the rules here for the tyre off set???

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Juddy

According to the 1972 parts manual for the SIIB the part number of the rim is 569203. I'm thinking that these are the rims you are talking about. (the early SIIB had less negative offest and were part number ?543384 - the 1 ton rim 569204 are similar offset to the early f/c rim.) There are about a 40mm (20mm + 20mm) difference in the track width outside to outside between the early and late f/c rims.

Only this last weekend I fitted a set of 569203s to Gog my ex-SADF f/C and the tread shoulder on the tyres are right below the outside of the original wheel arch extensions. The same extensions that your SIIB firefly doesn't have.

I would certainly think that they would be illegal in Aus and more than than even with +ve offset Disco I rims I still think you will have a problem. The best oprion would be the late defender 130 +ve offset rims but you're not going to achieve the 50mm or so you need for each rim..

IMHO, I would be attempting to acquire a set of the original extensions or better still this type (see below)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1135.jpg

and if necessary fit flexi flares to the rear wheel arch.

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Juddy

AFAIK the 569203 rims are the most negative offset* OEM 6.5 rims available. All other OEM rims have a more positive offset (i.e. the track is narrower).

Given that the 569203 rims are listed as standard you have no problem with the legality.

According to the SIIA parts catalogue, 1 ton rims are stamped 569204. If your 6.5 J 16 rims have other numbers like FVxxxx stamped on the inter stud flats, the rims are from a Defender 120 but have essentially the same offest as the 1 ton or SIIA f/c rims.

As mentioned in the post above, the problem you may have is if the tyre tread is outside the wheel arch alignment.

Diana

* The offset of a vehicle's wheel is the distance between the centerline of the wheel and the plane of the hub-mounting surface of the wheel. It can thus be either positive or negative.

C = wheel centreline
M = hub-mounting surface.
ET = offset ( if this is a positive number it is positive offset shown)
If the hub-mounting surface is inline with the centreline the off-set is neutral (no offset)
If the hub-mounting surface is inboard of the wheel centreline the offset is negative (i.e. 569203 rims)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1136.jpg

[juddy]

Wow thanks for the info...

So basiclly i have a problem??? if so iam alittle confused, as the tyres are the same as whats on it, and you would think that set up was legal...

The Rims that are still on it are iam told original 2b rims, so would i be better off keeping those on??? Mines a 1971 year

And why is there a issue if the new tyres i have are not going to be legal. would this not then mean all tyres would be illegal, or can you get ultra thin 2b tyres..... not that i want to as i have 4 brand new ones....

[juddy]

Juddy

According to the 1972 parts manual for the SIIB the part number of the rim is 569203. I'm thinking that these are the rims you are talking about. (the early SIIB had less negative offest and were part number ?543384 - the 1 ton rim 569204 are similar offset to the early f/c rim.) There are about a 40mm (20mm + 20mm) difference in the track width outside to outside between the early and late f/c rims.

Only this last weekend I fitted a set of 569203s to Gog my ex-SADF f/C and the tread shoulder on the tyres are right below the outside of the original wheel arch extensions. The same extensions that your SIIB firefly doesn't have.

I would certainly think that they would be illegal in Aus and more than than even with +ve offset Disco I rims I still think you will have a problem. The best oprion would be the late defender 130 +ve offset rims but you're not going to achieve the 50mm or so you need for each rim..

IMHO, I would be attempting to acquire a set of the original extensions or better still this type (see below)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1135.jpg

and if necessary fit flexi flares to the rear wheel arch.

Diana

Can flexi arches be used legaly all round if need be.......

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Can flexi arches be used legaly all round if need be.......Yes they can, I just thought with all the rusty forward controls in the U.K. and your contact with an FC guru he may be able to find you a pair of the front ones.

When you go for rego, I'd be taking a copy of the 1972 IIB parts catalogue so they can confirm the rim numbers.

No 9.00 16 are all basically the same width, the issue is what I said in an early post when you first bought the vehicle, I could not understand how your vehicle without the front wheel arch extensions could be both an SIIB and have it's tyres within the body alignment. Even the SIIA f/c had the wheel arch extensions (outside firefly) and their track was 4" narrower.

Firstly I would not worry about it yet, I would wait and see if there is an issue when it arrives (perhaps SIIB firefly have a widened cab.)

Once it gets here you can do a number of things, find the extensions is one (I acquired a complete body panel set on ebay a couple of years ago), you can also use flexi flares if needs be.

Regarding the tyres I'd be keeping the Michelins, they are a good tyre.

If the original rims are the 569203 the 1 Ton rims would give you 40mm less of a problem.

[juddy]

Yes they can, I just thought with all the rusty forward controls in the U.K. and your contact with an FC guru he may be able to find you a pair of the front ones.

When you go for rego, I'd be taking a copy of the 1972 IIB parts catalogue so they can confirm the rim numbers.

No 9.00 16 are all basically the same width, the issue is what I said in an early post when you first bought the vehicle, I could not understand how your vehicle without the front wheel arch extensions could be both an SIIB and have it's tyres within the body alignment. Even the SIIA f/c had the wheel arch extensions (outside firefly) and their track was 4" narrower.

Firstly I would not worry about it yet, I would wait and see if there is an issue when it arrives (perhaps SIIB firefly have a widened cab.)

Once it gets here you can do a number of things, find the extensions is one (I acquired a complete body panel set on ebay a couple of years ago), you can also use flexi flares if needs be.

Regarding the tyres I'd be keeping the Michelins, they are a good tyre.

If the original rims are the 569203 the 1 Ton rims would give you 40mm less of a problem.

That fc fire truck in your picture is it not a 2a? none of the 2b fire trucks had those wheel arch brows.... so maybe they did have a wider cab..

but i the pic below both the a and b have them...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1126.jpg

these firefly's dont
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1127.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1128.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1129.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1130.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1131.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1132.jpg

Now this one does however its not HCB Angus, could be a carmichel and is it a 2a???

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1124.jpg

[101RRS]

Juddy,

The metric 255 Michelins are not all that much wider than normal 9.00x16 tyres (they are about an 1" higher though). The Michelins are used on 101s quite often and wheelarch extensions are not required.

I would wait until your vehicle arrives and then work things out - nothing may be required but if it is the cheapest and easiest option are the cheap rubber extensions that you buy by the meter - at least until you work out what you want to do. The 101 has rubber extensions on the front arches as standard to cover the standard 9.00x16s and if wider rubber is used the rubber extensions are easily screwed onto the rear arches.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I can not see where they would have added any width to the cab on any of the pics, other than the fact that all the Firefly's are missing the extensions.

The last image is a SIIB. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1124.jpg

Below is an old front image of one of my SIIB, which has 543384 SIIA/early SIIB rim on the front LHS (it also had 2 of the 569203 rims but came from Nickel Mines Ltd which were second in SIIB purchases after W.A. Flick).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1125.jpg

You can almost see the tyre is marginally within the alignment of the extension. This vehicle now has a full set of 569203s and the tyre is (as I said) right on the alignment of the extension.

I'll take some better images of the situation with "Gog" on Friday.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Juddy,

The metric 255 Michelins are not all that much wider than normal 9.00x16 tyres (they are about an 1" higher though). The Michelins are used on 101s quite often and wheelarch extensions are not required.

I would wait until your vehicle arrives and then work things out - nothing may be required but if it is the cheapest and easiest option are the cheap rubber extensions that you buy by the meter -
<snip>
GarryGarry

Similarly to another recent thread, we are talking about SIIB here and not a 101, which is a different animal designed to run on the wide track axle assemblies! ;)

The track of an SIIB is essentially the same as a Defender, 4" wider than a bonnetted Series Landy. The body is also the same dimensions as the Series/Defender bodies and as we know the Defenders do require the wheel arch extensions.

However, you (we) are correct, Juddy shouldn't worry about it till the vehicle arrives in Oz and then if necessary add the rubber flexi flares.

[juddy]

Thanks guys for your input.

Just thought it alittle strange that, if it came with the right rims tyres, why would they be a need for change, will have to check and see what hes on about...

[juddy]

I can not see where they would have added any width to the cab on any of the pics, other than the fact that all the Firefly's are missing the extensions.

The last image is a SIIB. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1124.jpg

Below is an old front image of one of my SIIB, which has 543384 SIIA/early SIIB rim on the front LHS (it also had 2 of the 569203 rims but came from Nickel Mines Ltd which were second in SIIB purchases after W.A. Flick).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/1125.jpg

You can almost see the tyre is marginally within the alignment of the extension. This vehicle now has a full set of 569203s and the tyre is (as I said) right on the alignment of the extension.

I'll take some better images of the situation with "Gog" on Friday.

your tyres do look to fit better than the above red one, ie dont stick out as far...

[101RRS]

Garry

Similarly to another recent thread, we are talking about SIIB here and not a 101, which is a different animal designed to run on the wide track axle assemblies!

Yes fully understand that - but both vehicles do run the same tyres as standard - ergo if 9.00x16 fit Ok under both a FC and a 101 and the Michelins fit OK under a 101 then them Michelins should be Ok under a S2 FC.

On a side - since I have had my 101 I have sighted a number of 101s on the road but only ever 1 S2FC - that being Olivers here in Canberra. What happened to them all? I assume there were far more of the series version than 101s in Aust but they seem to be becoming rarer. I am looking forward to seeing Juddy's FC on the next Outback Heritage Drive in a couple of years.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

your tyres do look to fit better than the above red one, ie dont stick out as far...Looking at my Capt Pneumo - I think that the front LHS is a 543384 and the rear LHS is a 569203. You can see the aprox. 20mm difference in offset by the relationship of the rim to the hubcap.

In the mean time I have been expanding the images of your firefly and I'm pretty confident that your vehicle has either the original SIIA/SIIB fc rims or the 569204 1 Ton rims and that it aligns relatively close to the bar treads on mmy Capt Pneumo.

I do have a couple of 9.00 16 Alliance NATO "Traction Lug" pattern tyres (same as yours has in the images) on the 543384 rims out with Gog, so I'll even play swap the rims with a plumb bob and camera to see what the different alignments are.

It may come down to the fact that my STA Superlug tyres have a wider shoulder than the Alliance Traction lugs, which results in an apparently wider tyre.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
On a side - since I have had my 101 I have sighted a number of 101s on the road but only ever 1 S2FC - that being Olivers here in Canberra. What happened to them all? I assume there were far more of the series version than 101s in Aust but they seem to be becoming rarer. I am looking forward to seeing Juddy's FC on the next Outback Heritage Drive in a couple of years.

GarryI must have all the Series f/c :D :angel: - no that's not true, Dandylandyman has one, as you said Oliver, Ken West from the LROCV, 123Rover50 has one, as does FC Tas.

According to REMLR there were 2669 101 produced and between 32 and 58 101s delivered to the Australian Army 101 FC in Australia REMLR (http://remlr.com/fc101.html). Subsequent to disposal a number of private imports including ambulance and radio body vehicles arrived in Australia. There were roughly as many 101's produced as there were SIIA and as there were SIIB so all up Land Rover produced something less than 10,000 forward controls of all types.

From memory there would only have been about 30 or less forward control vehicles recorded in the Grenville Motors books and then possibly similar numbers in the other distributors books. It appears the majority of them went to W.A. Flick and Co (pest control) and then a number went to Nickel Mines but they were the two largest NSW customers, after that a number of Govt departments like CSIRO, and the three Universities NSW, Sydney and ANU.

We only know of around 20 series f/c still existant.

BTW: Michelin XZL 9.00 16 were the OEM tyres on series fc

[juddy]

Yes fully understand that - but both vehicles do run the same tyres as standard - ergo if 9.00x16 fit Ok under both a FC and a 101 and the Michelins fit OK under a 101 then them Michelins should be Ok under a S2 FC.

On a side - since I have had my 101 I have sighted a number of 101s on the road but only ever 1 S2FC - that being Olivers here in Canberra. What happened to them all? I assume there were far more of the series version than 101s in Aust but they seem to be becoming rarer. I am looking forward to seeing Juddy's FC on the next Outback Heritage Drive in a couple of years.

Garry

B=Not a chance on seeing it on the next drive, it would be hell to drive it so far...... it will be at the 65th, along with Jims S1

[juddy]

Looking at my Capt Pneumo - I think that the front LHS is a 543384 and the rear LHS is a 569203. You can see the aprox. 20mm difference in offset by the relationship of the rim to the hubcap.

In the mean time I have been expanding the images of your firefly and I'm pretty confident that your vehicle has either the original SIIA/SIIB fc rims or the 569204 1 Ton rims and that it aligns relatively close to the bar treads on mmy Capt Pneumo.

I do have a couple of 9.00 16 Alliance NATO "Traction Lug" pattern tyres (same as yours has in the images) on the 543384 rims out with Gog, so I'll even play swap the rims with a plumb bob and camera to see what the different alignments are.

It may come down to the fact that my STA Superlug tyres have a wider shoulder than the Alliance Traction lugs, which results in an apparently wider tyre.

So thats what tyres i have on NATO Traction Lug, ummmmmm... my are no good any more only really 1 for spare. I was told my rims are the correct 2b rims ( and very rare ) thats why i bought the 1 ton ones, i can get original 2b rims, but there alittle expensive, i was also offered 2 brand new 2b complete doors, again, a bit pricey, so just got tops instead.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So thats what tyres i have on NATO Traction Lug, ummmmmm... my are no good any more only really 1 for spare. I was told my rims are the correct 2b rims ( and very rare ) thats why i bought the 1 ton ones, i can get original 2b rims, but there alittle expensive, i was also offered 2 brand new 2b complete doors, again, a bit pricey, so just got tops instead.the pattern is NATO - the maker is Alliance (from Israel) and they call their NATO pattern "Traction Lug".

The rims on the SIIB are a little interesting, the 543384 rims are the original rims fitted to all SIIA fc. They were also fitted to the early SIIB, but it was found that mud & snow chains had problems fouling on the wider mounted rear springs. The solution was to offset the rim by a little to clear the springs when chains were fitted. However, it seems that the 569203 rims were not fitted to SIIB in all markets, while at least in the UK most SIIB were retrofitted with the later rims and the 543384 rims are rare in the UK. The 1 ton rims 569204 are almost identical - in fact I have 543384 on my SIII FFR and 569204 on my No.5 trailer and I challenge anyone to spot the difference from anything other than real close.

If you have the 569204 rims, they will be a good option for your vehicle.

See if you can tell the difference in these rims?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/419.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Juddy

Didn't do any playing with Gog on Friday but managed to get away from the SME this afternoon.

My STA Superlug tyres have a tread width of 210mm while the Alliance Traction Lug have a tread width of 200mm

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/221.jpg

There is about 20mm difference between the IIB rims and the 1 Ton rims which added to the difference between the treads means that you would expect the Alliance tyres on 1 Ton rims to be 25mm inboard to the images below.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/222.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/223.jpg

Didn't have time to fit up a different wheel.

Hope this helps.

Diana

[juddy]

Juddy

Didn't do any playing with Gog on Friday but managed to get away from the SME this afternoon.

My STA Superlug tyres have a tread width of 210mm while the Alliance Traction Lug have a tread width of 200mm

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/221.jpg

There is about 20mm difference between the IIB rims and the 1 Ton rims which added to the difference between the treads means that you would expect the Alliance tyres on 1 Ton rims to be 25mm inboard to the images below.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/222.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/223.jpg

Didn't have time to fit up a different wheel.

Hope this helps.

Diana

Sorry for the delay on this one, the 1 ton rims from Vass, are of no use with the new 255 tyres, and thus the 2b rims are needed, so a little waste of money on the 1 ton rims, they would fit on the rear if needed, i can get hold of genuine 2b rims for 90 uk pounds , as new so i may end up just getting one for a spare, and hopefully someone on here may want 4 1 ton rims...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

People love 6.5" wide rims as they suit the radial tyres you won't have a problem getting rid of them.

I have two of the 569204 1 Ton rims and also three sets of 543384? SIIa f/c rims (you can see a set on FFReddy) so we may do a deal where I get your four 1 ton rims (making a set of 6) and someone else gets a set of 5 SIIa fc rims - the offset difference between the two is almost indistinguishable.

I also have two sets (10) 569203 SIIB rims, for Gog and the other SIIB I'm keeping.

How many SIIB rims do you have?

[juddy]

People love 6.5" wide rims as they suit the radial tyres you won't have a problem getting rid of them.

I have two of the 569204 1 Ton rims and also three sets of 543384? SIIa f/c rims (you can see a set on FFReddy) so we may do a deal where I get your four 1 ton rims (making a set of 6) and someone else gets a set of 5 SIIa fc rims - the offset difference between the two is almost indistinguishable.

I also have two sets (10) 569203 SIIB rims, for Gog and the other SIIB I'm keeping.

How many SIIB rims do you have?

4 plus, a number of spares if needed at 90 pounds each....

[Lotz-A-Landies]

4 plus, a number of spares if needed at 90 pounds each....I like having 2 spares when I can. One for in the vehicle and another for long trips or if I shred a tyre locally.

[juddy]

I like having 2 spares when I can. One for in the vehicle and another for long trips or if I shred a tyre locally.

2 is a good idea, but at that price there not on the top of the list yet.... hopefully before shipping we will pop at least one in..

[wagoo]

On a side - since I have had my 101 I have sighted a number of 101s on the road but only ever 1 S2FC - that being Olivers here in Canberra. What happened to them all? I assume there were far more of the series version than 101s in Aust but they seem to be becoming rarer. I am looking forward to seeing Juddy's FC on the next Outback Heritage Drive in a couple of years.

Garry

I think the fact that almost every structural and mechanical component was operating at or well over the original design limits would account for the low survival rate.Plus spares availabilty for the unique components such as ENV diffs, gearbox mainshaft and all helical transfercase is poor to non existant in Australia.
Wagoo.

[juddy]

The good news is i have now got a near new 2b rim, and its got a brand new tyre on it...... happy days..... so i now have 2 spare 1 ton rims... spare