Gas Injection just fitted to my 95 V8 Disco and its not running at all

[SPROVER]

I recently had an Impco Sequential Gas injection system fitted by Deacon Automotive.I supplied them the system and all they did was fit it and tune.Parts supplied by me were :
- Gas injection and all its components (bought second hand)
- Scuba style tanks off my old Disco. (only 3yrs old)

They had fitted alot of these systems to Discos and Rangies and had no problems.Well since i have got it back from them i have had nothing but trouble.The car doesnt idle and it sounds like it runs on 5 cylinders when you drive it.And it has hardly any power.So basically it is undriveable:(.

The gas in the tanks was about 2yrs old but i filled it more then half with new gas.The ignition is up to scratch with new leads suited for gas,a new coil,a scorcher dizzy and new plugs as well.So basically after stuffing around with it for a few days they told me it is basically just "bad luck" that its not running on my Disco.Those were his exact words.And have left me with a gas system that doesnt work!

It runs great on petrol and while it was there they fitted a new standard cam and lifters.So where do i go from here? What could it be that makes it run like this? After forking out all that money,which took me ages to save and now i have a gas system which doesnt work.Any help would be great.

Thanks
Chris

[p38arover]

I wish I could offer some useful info. I can understand how you feel.

Too bad you're not near Crafers West in SA.

There is some bloke there who knows Landies and LPG. Bee Utey is, I think, his username. :D

[bee utey]

I have fitted a couple of these systems, easy enough to fit, but I was not all that impressed with them. One of them ended up with a failed injector, took absolutely ages to get another sent for warranty. Customer was not amused, was going to call consumer affairs.

Now in your case I would first do basic diagnosis, that is to check all the gas injectors for electrical function. Use a multimeter and compare their resistance readings. Then check which injectors are not running, squeeze the injector hoses shut and see which ones function. Then swap injector plugs around to see if the fault follows the plug or the injector. The D1 won't care which plug fires which injector, it's not sequential.

It may also be that there is contamination sticking your injectors closed. Try running some carby cleaner into them. you will have to de-mount them from their rail though.

Nextly there is a tool available from the UK to see what is happening in the gas ECU:

BRC LPG sequential injection ECU interface & software - eBay, Other Car Accessories, Car Accessories, Vehicle Parts Accessories. (end time 20-Oct-10 09:39:06 AEDST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260542118428&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

I am thinking about getting one for servicing but have resisted it knowing I might not install another one of these systems.

[justinc]

Also, 'Pibby' a member on here, has just done a mountain of problem solving and research on his poorly performing seq system, and solved most of the problems himself. He has one of these diagnostic programs IIRC. I was very impressed with his tenacity:D.

Might be worth PM'ing him a few Q's?

JC

[pibby]

Sprover – I’ve got a kme system which is distributed by elko. By virtue of the local gas fitters lack of knowledge of land rover I ended up purchasing the software and cable to perform my own troubleshooting. So I guess in your case work out what you are happier to do – buy the cable/software and troubleshoot yourself or take the vehicle back to another installer with knowledge of land rovers. Personally I’d get the software and save yourself having to visit a gas shop each time you have a problem. It is a steep learning curve at first but you soon work your way through it. nonetheless, there are some things you can do without it which will hopefully find your problem.

Bee utey does this stuff for a living so I’d recommend what he has said. I do not know about the impact of old gas ……From what I have learnt messing around with mine and going on what you have said, if it sounds like it is not firing on all cylinders then start with that. as bee utey said these are a batch fire system not sequential so you are just checking that the gas injectors are firing and not worry about the timing of the gas firing in relation to the petrol injector. As a high level check if your car has 2 or 4 injector banks have your car idling on gas then disconnect/reconnect (there will be an electrical connector plug going to each injector bank) one injector bank at a time and see what impact each bank has. If you disconnect a bank and there is no difference to the running of your engine then that is all or part of your problem.You might be lucky and find that one bank is causing your problems. Next, either test electronically as bee utey said or on my vehicle I would disconnect the hoses off the injectors on the side going to the intake manifold and turn the car over on lpg not petrol on the starter and check that each injector is firing gas and that they all sound/behave the same way. armed with this info then it will be easier to determine what to do/look at next. (you can force the system to start on lpg on my system by holding the button which turns the gas power on/off down for 10 seconds. Your system will have something similar).

If an injector is not firing then it can be either mechanical or electrical. As bee utey said it might have some gunk caught inside it. I pulled mine completely apart and ran new rubbers/seals through them but cross that bridge if the diagnosis shows it to be the case.

Try that for starters and good luck. Post the results of your troubleshooting and hopefully the forum members can get to the bottom of it. It can be very frustrating getting this stuff sorted but once you do you’ll love driving on lpg. But you’ll need to get your dissy regraphed for lpg – though one step at a time.

[trobbo]

I have nothing useful to say to help you with fault finding but had deacons do gas injection on my D1 for a teriffic result. Had the mixer changed under warranty after 3 weeks when it failed but apart from that no problems. They of course specialise in LR's and gas conversions and have done, I'm sure, thousands of them.

That being the case I tend to lean towards it being a hardware problem rather than an installation problem.

Do you know why the gas injection system was taken off the donor car? Was it woking properly?

BTW the response they gave you is very unsatisfactory and perhaps some discussion about consumer affairs may help illicit a better response.

[SPROVER]

I have nothing useful to say to help you with fault finding but had deacons do gas injection on my D1 for a teriffic result. Had the mixer changed under warranty after 3 weeks when it failed but apart from that no problems. They of course specialise in LR's and gas conversions and have done, I'm sure, thousands of them.

That being the case I tend to lean towards it being a hardware problem rather than an installation problem.

Do you know why the gas injection system was taken off the donor car? Was it woking properly?

BTW the response they gave you is very unsatisfactory and perhaps some discussion about consumer affairs may help illicit a better response.

I went to Deacons because they were a Landrover specialist and had done alot of these conversions before.And i did hear alot of good things about them.But after the way they dealt with me i will not be going back there again! As for consumer affairs,they are very high on the list of THINGS TO DO.

Regarding all the other replies.Thanks heaps.I will be trying all the suggestions sometime this week when i get a chance.Or when i can be bothered :( After all this it really just makes me angry to even work on it considering the money i paid them.

I will be trying your recommendations PIBBY and BEE UTEY and will post up any improvements or new dints in the side of the Disco.:p Hopefully its only something small and i will be happy as Larry :D.

Thanks
Chris

[dirtdawg]

if all else fails take it to range rov they did a great job of fixing up the gas system om my disco

[SPROVER]

Tried a few things on the Disco the other day to try and chase this
problem with the gas.A few other things i have noticed are that when
you rev it quickly off idle there is a miss down low.But when you hold
the revs higher up around 2000 RPM and rev it, seems to be fine.The idle
is still erratic and hunts alot.Although it seems to be hunting alot on
petrol now as well.
All of the injectors seem to be working.You can feel the pulsing going
through all the lines.Each injector plug was also removed and swapped
with another one and the revs would drop then rise back when it was
disconnected and then re connected.All while holding the revs a liitle.
I tried to take the injector out but it has some kind of special clamp holding
the line so i couldnt get it off.And i was starting to get a bit frustrated
at this time:mad:.
Im thinking maybe the injectors are blocked.If it was the injectors how much
would i be looking at to replace them? Although i will try to flush them
first.Im at the point now where i dont want to work on it after all the
money i paid and im losing interest in the Disco.I dont want to get rid of
my Disco but this is starting to push me to my limits.:(

Thanks
Chris

[bee utey]

Sounds like you need to find the software to tune it. Or someone who has it and knows how to do it. Nextly all the usual things like spark plugs, weak ignition amp, plug leads and timing still apply. Plug gap no more than 0.8mm, best 0.7mm, 1 heat range colder than standard (e.g Bosch WR7DC+) , timing 10 degrees BTDC. There is usually a pressure adjustment on the converter, a hex socket screw against the pressure diaphragm. An increase in pressure may be enough to get some go.

I doubt that the injectors are partly blocked, black goo usually just sticks them shut.

[SPROVER]

Sounds like you need to find the software to tune it. Or someone who has it and knows how to do it. Nextly all the usual things like spark plugs, weak ignition amp, plug leads and timing still apply. Plug gap no more than 0.8mm, best 0.7mm, 1 heat range colder than standard (e.g Bosch WR7DC+) , timing 10 degrees BTDC. There is usually a pressure adjustment on the converter, a hex socket screw against the pressure diaphragm. An increase in pressure may be enough to get some go.

I doubt that the injectors are partly blocked, black goo usually just sticks them shut.

When they put the system in new plugs were fitted.Im running a Scorcher
Distributor and new leads suited for gas so that should be up to the task.
Also recently just put a new coil in as well.So the ignition side is probably
as good as it will get.I think i might just buy that cable and software which
you provided the link to.
Do you happen to know if that is the one for my system?
Thanks
Chris

[bee utey]

Impco Technologies bought out BRC for its gas injection technology. So I assume the BRC adaptor would suit yours.

BRC has developed many different versions of this system over the years. When I attended an Impco seminar last year I was told there are quite a few differences between early and later systems.

However I would contact the seller and give him any details of your system and see if they are compatible, just in case. Also I think the diagnosis plug on your system should be compatible with the one shown in the link.

[Zute]

Try puting the old coil back in. Ive replaced a coil with a new "high proformance" one, just to have it run like crap. Put the old one back in and all was good.
Had the same thing happen with leads. Replaced them only because they were old. But when I test the new against the old factory Toyota ones, the old leads were still better.

[SPROVER]

Well its going in for a Dyno tune tomorrow with a gas place.Hopefully it
will sort the problem out.Instead of saving me money using gas its costing
me more :(. Will let you know how it goes.Fingers crossed! ;)

[pibby]

(. Will let you know how it goes.Fingers crossed! ;)

so how did it go? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:

[SPROVER]

so how did it go? :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:

I completely forgot to update this thread.Ive really just been trying to forget about the whole thing.Well it went in for a tune up and they couldnt even get it to idle themselves.They guy who dealt with it said it was popping out the exhaust and said i either had a stuck valve or get this, to tight rocker shafts :no2: Never heard of that before!
So i really dont know where to go from here.:( Im thinking about taking the whole system out and going back to the old style set up.But thats going to cost me money and time which i dont have.He dyno tuned it on petrol and it made 101kw at the wheels.Which i think is about right for a healthy V8 Disco.
So i have a gas system in the car and cant use it.:mad: I just dont know what to do now!

[pibby]

well that's not good news. give it a couple of days and you'll be back at it trying to work out what it is. there's plenty of people on here who can point you in the right direction but the main thing they need is an accurate description of what is actually occurring. it's really important to describe if something is happening on petrol only/gas only or both. has the condition been deteriorating , is it when the car is hot or cold, is it just when accelerating or from idle right through the rev range, if driving on petrol at say 60 km/h then switch to gas does the car keep driving etc etc. you mention it was starting to hunt at idle on petrol is that still the case?

try and have a think again about your latest symptoms and update your thread with them and hopefully some bright spark will come along to get you on your way.

[SPROVER]

Well during the week i spoke to the guy who i bought the system off.He told me to bring it around and he would check it out for me.He fits these systems to Range Rovers and Discoveries.After 45 min of checking the wiring and having a look at how Deacon Automotive set it up he got the thing idling and driveable.I really couldnt believe it after the mechanic at Deacon told me "Its just bad luck it doesn't work on your car".
Anyway he had a look at a vacuum line which connects to a sensor i think which the computer gets a reading from and a few other things and asked if i was running an oxygen sensor on it.There wasnt one connected and he told me it should be to get it running correctly.So tomorrow im getting one fitted.He disconnected the vacuum line and what do you know the thing idled and drove perfectly.He explained it to me that there is nothing telling the computer how much gas to give the motor.And that with the vacuum off, it will be running full rich on the gas.Does this sound right?
I drove home about 20 km and it drove perfectly.The only thing i noticed this morning when the engine wasnt at operating temp it didnt want to run right and was spluttering alot.Probably due to running full rich???? Hes going to be tuning it for me as well once the oxygen sensor is fitted.So hopefully after all that it was just something simple.

[bee utey]

Well during the week i spoke to the guy who i bought the system off.He told me to bring it around and he would check it out for me.He fits these systems to Range Rovers and Discoveries.After 45 min of checking the wiring and having a look at how Deacon Automotive set it up he got the thing idling and driveable.I really couldnt believe it after the mechanic at Deacon told me "Its just bad luck it doesn't work on your car".
Anyway he had a look at a vacuum line which connects to a sensor i think which the computer gets a reading from and a few other things and asked if i was running an oxygen sensor on it.There wasnt one connected and he told me it should be to get it running correctly.So tomorrow im getting one fitted.He disconnected the vacuum line and what do you know the thing idled and drove perfectly.He explained it to me that there is nothing telling the computer how much gas to give the motor.And that with the vacuum off, it will be running full rich on the gas.Does this sound right?
I drove home about 20 km and it drove perfectly.The only thing i noticed this morning when the engine wasnt at operating temp it didnt want to run right and was spluttering alot.Probably due to running full rich???? Hes going to be tuning it for me as well once the oxygen sensor is fitted.So hopefully after all that it was just something simple.

Remember the gas ECU is reading the petrol signals, so probably it is way too rich when running cold petrol settings. Should be better if the petrol ECU gets oxy sensor input but I don't know if that's what your guy is recommending. The removed vac hose is just upping the load signal to the gas ECU, it's a work-around which should be fixed with retuning.

[SPROVER]

Remember the gas ECU is reading the petrol signals, so probably it is way too rich when running cold petrol settings. Should be better if the petrol ECU gets oxy sensor input but I don't know if that's what your guy is recommending. The removed vac hose is just upping the load signal to the gas ECU, it's a work-around which should be fixed with retuning.

Thats what the guy told me.That it is just a work around before it is tuned.:)
I think from what i remember he told me, was that he wants to tune it via the oxy sensor.I didnt ask if it was via the petrol ECU or via the gas ECU.Would it make a difference either way? Would it work the same if it was set up only on the gas ECU?

[trobbo]

glad to hear it is finally getting sorted.

who did you take it to?

[bee utey]

Thats what the guy told me.That it is just a work around before it is tuned.:)
I think from what i remember he told me, was that he wants to tune it via the oxy sensor.I didnt ask if it was via the petrol ECU or via the gas ECU.Would it make a difference either way? Would it work the same if it was set up only on the gas ECU?

Oxy sensor wired to the gas ECU allows the tuner to manually adjust the mixtures in the programming. It doesn't self-tune. Still a good idea.

Oxy sensors wired to the petrol ECU require some fancy rewiring and genuine sensors. It has been done, not too hard. A couple of people (at least) on this forum have done it , including Pibby. This method is the best as the ECU will self-tune both fuels at closed loop operation, that is mainly under cruising, warm to hot engine conditions.

In a similar situation to yours, I have just fitted an injection system to a 2.7 Hilux which surprised me by not having an oxy sensor, despite being an '04 model with a cat converter. I had to tune it manually, and it required me to massage the numbers in the gas ECU during a test drive. I just carefully richened it up until it didn't sag under light load. I will see how the economy goes when the customer reports back.

[SPROVER]

glad to hear it is finally getting sorted.

who did you take it to?

I took it to the guy i bought it from.He does gas installations on the side for another Rover place.I had the exhaust done today for the oxy sensor so hopefully next week it will be tuned and running properly.Fingers crossed:eek: