CAT 12H Coolant issue

[LandyAndy]

Our CAT 12H Grader is having cooling system issues.
It has been overheating.Radiator was found to be blocked with a black sludge.Radiator was removed and rodded,CAT reccomended flushing the cooling sytem adding a liquid clothes detergent.It was flushed with detergent then water lots of times over a week,the correct CAT ELC coolant was then added after running on rain water,daily draining for at least a week.
The coolant has continued to turn black and is overheating again,mainly when transporting on hot days(sounds like radiator is blocking again).It was just serviced and the sample tests(oil/coolant etc) say the coolant has exsessive iron contamination and to drain/flush/refil ASAP.(I havent seen the test results,the boss told me).
When you let the coolant settle out in a glass jar the black contamination settles to the bottom of the jar,it doesnt feel or smell oily.
Will ask to see oil sample report when Im back at work.
Ideas please.
Andrew

[isuzurover]

Very strange...

If you want Andy, send me some of the black sludge, and I should be able to get it analysed.

PM me for postal address if interested.

[LandyAndy]

Thanks Ben.
Will look into that.
Andrew

[rick130]

Andy, the inhibitor used in the ELC coolant is very sensitive to air inclusion apparently and can result in sludging, although I've never experienced it in any of our cars (i've used Caltex ELC (OAT) for years in both the Patrol and Landy, it's the same as the CAT ELC minus a couple of supplementary additives)
I'd be checking the entire system for leaks and maybe a gas test on the coolant for a potential head gasket leak ?

I'm actually swapping everything over here to a Cummins Propylene glycol HOAT now, just as it's easier for me to get.

[LandyAndy]

Interesting.
Why would CAT specify ELC/OAT in a non-sealed system???
It has no recovery tank and has the ELC warning sticker on the radiator lid.
I have told the steerer(wont refer to him as an operator) NOT to fill the radiator to the brim as it will always spit out the amount needed for a head space.Still fills it brim full and complains it uses a few litres of coolant every day.Its done it since new and has over 8000hours on the clock.
Pretty sure pressure testing and sniff testing of the coolant was done by CAT before the radiator was removed/rodded.
Grader should have been replaced last year,havent heard if its definately going this year.
Andrew

[theborderdog]

G'day Andy, can't tell you what the problem is but I could put you on to a very good parts interpreter for Hastings Deering (cat dealer in QLD)
PM me if your interested

[rick130]

Andy, I saved this link years ago, it attempts to give a reason of how and why it happens in GM cars in the US.

Draft?DEX-COOL 2007, Part 1: Revising A Less-Than-Accurate Report (http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool2007Part1.php)

[LandyAndy]

G'day Andy, can't tell you what the problem is but I could put you on to a very good parts interpreter for Hastings Deering (cat dealer in QLD)
PM me if your interested

Thanks for that.
Pretty sure CAT over here will be onto it,will look at getting a sample to Ben,he has acsess to some good testing gear at uni;););)
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

When the radiator was out I suggested it wasnt oil,but rubber from the insides of the hoses braking down,we had to replace the top hose it had no strength left in it at all,wouldnt retain its round shape.
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

got a hydraluic-coolant cooler on that baby?

[LandyAndy]

got a hydraluic-coolant cooler on that baby?

Unsure,I guess it is as there isnt much in the way of coolers on it,many years since it was my pussy cat.Oils are free of coolant,it doesnt appear to be oil in the coolant,it isnt emulsifying.What ever the issue is its producing plenty of the black stuff.
Originally we suspected exhaust soot in the coolant,its not pressuresing the system like a blown head gasket,the sniffer test didnt pick anything up either.Not that they are too reliable on a diesel motor.
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

care to take a guess at what happens when you use an organic acid on a mineral base oil mix it with some rubber and expose it to heat?

think TD5 engine oil cooler but hydraulic oil doesnt have all the detergents and stuff added to it

suggest as an experiment adding a tracing dye to the hydraulic oil if it has a coolant-oil heat exchanger

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

The excessive iron contamination maybe due to two things assuming it's a 3406 in it.....
1- the block itself is starting to actually dissolve from age or being wet liner, you have liner corrosion issues.
2- what is he topping up the coolant with, more ELC or tap/ground/bore water???

If the town water is from ground water based supply it may well be naturally occurring ferrous iron prevalent in WA ground water. Similar also for dam held surface water.
WA Groundwater varies from 10ppm up to as much as 70ppm which when exposed to air will start to oxidize quite quickly depending on pH.
I used to design chemical treatment systems for a number of years before I got tired of the backward attitude of the Water Corp here in WA and went back to the Automotive industry.

Providing it's topped up with ELC and not the above or any other coolant, my experience with a lot of Cat engines is purely age, problem is you need to remove it or do an in chassis strip to assess it.
I doubt that the sludge is anything related to the Dexcool issue as Dexcool had some significant chemical differences which were actually the cause and I have not seen or ever heard of any similar issues with Cat ELC but am open to correction if anyone does.
However, if the sludge is iron and it does get air in the system then this may be an indicator that the block is physically on it's way out.

Be interesting to see the results.

Cheers

Andrew


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[rick130]

Andrew, a CAT lab tech in the US (on another forum) told me some years ago that Dexcool, Texaco ELC and CAT ELC were identical, except for a couple of supplementary additives that CAT had added and for the life of me I can't remember what (nitrite and borate ?) to boost the base mixture and help with potential cavitation erosion/liner pitting.

At the time, CAT didn't have any of the problems that were plaguing GM either but I've heard Pat whinge about CAT coolant a few times, blaming the ELC/OAT for all sorts of things.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Andrew, a CAT lab tech in the US (on another forum) told me some years ago that Dexcool, Texaco ELC and CAT ELC were identical, except for a couple of supplementary additives that CAT had added and for the life of me I can't remember what (nitrite and borate ?) to boost the base mixture and help with potential cavitation erosion/liner pitting.

At the time, CAT didn't have any of the problems that were plaguing GM either but I've heard Pat whinge about CAT coolant a few times, blaming the ELC/OAT for all sorts of things.

Hmmm.... Interesting as I know Detroit Powercool and Cat ELC are not to be mixed together.
This is the label on Powercool

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-1516-65b9.jpg

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-158f-d650.jpg

There's also new CAT number too for 20l drums being 365-8396 against the old 238-8649. Pic of both below

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-1640-8f97.jpg

Makeup list for the new one

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-16ac-3d12.jpg

Now get busy and work out the answer!! :p


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[rick130]

OK, CAT ELC was definitely made by Texaco (as of five years ago) and is an OAT with small amount of nitrite and molybdate as SCA's, (not borate) otherwise it was identical to Land Rover OAT and GM US Dexcool.

The Sodium 2-ethylhexanoate is the active (last photo) that distinguishes it as an OAT and particularly a Texaco/Dexcool derivative.

Unfortunately I can't ask Mark the CAT/Butler labs manager across to discuss what could be wrong as he was killed five years ago :(

[LandyAndy]

The excessive iron contamination maybe due to two things assuming it's a 3406 in it.....
1- the block itself is starting to actually dissolve from age or being wet liner, you have liner corrosion issues.
2- what is he topping up the coolant with, more ELC or tap/ground/bore water???

If the town water is from ground water based supply it may well be naturally occurring ferrous iron prevalent in WA ground water. Similar also for dam held surface water.
WA Groundwater varies from 10ppm up to as much as 70ppm which when exposed to air will start to oxidize quite quickly depending on pH.
I used to design chemical treatment systems for a number of years before I got tired of the backward attitude of the Water Corp here in WA and went back to the Automotive industry.

Providing it's topped up with ELC and not the above or any other coolant, my experience with a lot of Cat engines is purely age, problem is you need to remove it or do an in chassis strip to assess it.
I doubt that the sludge is anything related to the Dexcool issue as Dexcool had some significant chemical differences which were actually the cause and I have not seen or ever heard of any similar issues with Cat ELC but am open to correction if anyone does.
However, if the sludge is iron and it does get air in the system then this may be an indicator that the block is physically on it's way out.

Be interesting to see the results.

Cheers

Andrew


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

Thanks Andrew.
Only had rainwater in it for flushing,topped up with ELC.
I will get a good sample and see what Ben can do with a test.
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

Thanks Andrew.
Only had rainwater in it for flushing,topped up with ELC.
I will get a good sample and see what Ben can do with a test.
Andrew

Andy, how old is it and how many hours?

[LandyAndy]

Hi Brian
8750 hrs,would be no more than 8 years old,was brand new when I started work with the shire 7 years ago.
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

Hi Brian
8750 hrs,would be no more than 8 years old,was brand new when I started work with the shire 7 years ago.
Andrew

Well, you outfit does put more hours on than the average shire council. Rule of thumb in the equipment sales business was that shire gear does around 800 hours or slightly more per annum. Twelve years and 10,000 hours being a pretty common trade-in from govt. and local govt. bodies. How much of this was work, and how much roading from job to job instead of floating was always a moot point. Hardest usage I ever came across was a Fiat-Allis 31 dozer supplied to Utah with extended warranty of two years/10,000 hours. They were past the 10,000 hours before the two years expired and had actually done an in-frame overhaul of the KT Cummins at about the 10,000 hours. Normal wear and tear, not warranty.

I have never before heard of your sediment problem. I find it hard to imagine a cast iron engine disintegrating into black powder.

Isn't it amazing the amount and types of chemical crap we now pour into radiators? I like the Castrol green stuff myself. When I started work in the late 1950's we used water. If the contents started to look too muddy, then they were drained, a couple of pounds of washing soda inserted, filled with fresh water, driven around for a week or so, drained, flushed, and refilled with water.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Just as an aside Andy,,
was at Hastings yesterday,,
they were loading a new 12M onto a float for Darwin,,

damn sexy bit of gear:cool:

[LandyAndy]

Just as an aside Andy,,
was at Hastings yesterday,,
they were loading a new 12M onto a float for Darwin,,

damn sexy bit of gear:cool:

Dont like them.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Here is the coolant sample Im sending to Ben for testing.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/380.jpg
The sample is shaken not stirred!!!!! It does settle out to a semi red OAT colour with 5mm of sludge at the bottom of the bottle.

CAT analysis.
Mo455,P<1,B<1,Glycol36,NO2 268,Mo04 728,K<1,Na2949,BO3 0,P04 0,Si03 20,Odour -,Oil -,Foaming F,PH 8.9.Cond 3383.

REPORT.
URGENT. The Iron is Extremely High.The glycol level is slightly low.Some foam is visible in the sample.Drain,flush several times with clean water and refill the system with new coolant.Resample afterwards to monitor.

Thoughts people,we have already done all the flushing/new coolant etc,even dropped 2 lots of new coolant after due to turning black,has 100% CAT ELC coolant at the moment.

Andrew,you may get a phonecall from the boss asking you to put into words what you think your prognosis is,we need to get rid of this grader before it costs us bigtime.An independant opinion will really help,will get Tony to cantact you.
Ben when you get the sample,Ive asked them to put the shire Email addy in the info.Could you please send you results/thoughts to Tony Kett.

Its parked up at the moment having a rest as its not needed.
Andrew

[isuzurover]

Here is the coolant sample Im sending to Ben for testing.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/380.jpg
The sample is shaken not stirred!!!!! It does settle out to a semi red OAT colour with 5mm of sludge at the bottom of the bottle.

CAT analysis.
Mo455,P<1,B<1,Glycol36,NO2 268,Mo04 728,K<1,Na2949,BO3 0,P04 0,Si03 20,Odour -,Oil -,Foaming F,PH 8.9.Cond 3383.

REPORT.
URGENT. The Iron is Extremely High.The glycol level is slightly low.Some foam is visible in the sample.Drain,flush several times with clean water and refill the system with new coolant.Resample afterwards to monitor.

Thoughts people,we have already done all the flushing/new coolant etc,even dropped 2 lots of new coolant after due to turning black,has 100% CAT ELC coolant at the moment.

Andrew,you may get a phonecall from the boss asking you to put into words what you think your prognosis is,we need to get rid of this grader before it costs us bigtime.An independant opinion will really help,will get Tony to cantact you.
Ben when you get the sample,Ive asked them to put the shire Email addy in the info.Could you please send you results/thoughts to Tony Kett.

Its parked up at the moment having a rest as its not needed.
Andrew

So can I send the bill to council then??? :D

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

No probs. Bit darker than I expected though. If you have a strong magnet, run it alongside the sediment and see if it pulls anything out. This would indicate possibly a porous block.
Something definitely not right.

Did it go cloudy running rain water?


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[Blknight.aus]

if it keeps on doing it that quickly its got oil contamination.

[LandyAndy]

if it keeps on doing it that quickly its got oil contamination.
No oil detected in the sample.Oil floats on water,it wouldnt settle to the bottom of the bottle.
The sludge dries to a coarse sand like texture,its not oil.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

No probs. Bit darker than I expected though. If you have a strong magnet, run it alongside the sediment and see if it pulls anything out. This would indicate possibly a porous block.
Something definitely not right.

Did it go cloudy running rain water?


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

Sample should be on the way to Ben.
Never went cloudy with rainwater,was black the whole time.Only takes hours to turn the coolant from red to black.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

So can I send the bill to council then??? :D


If a bill is needed send an invoice to the shire with the results ;);););)
More than happy to cut the bill out with a firewood trip/homebrew evening;););););)
Andrew

[rick130]

[snip]

Never went cloudy with rainwater,was black the whole time.Only takes hours to turn the coolant from red to black.
Andrew

:eek:

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Any more on this? Didn't hear from Tony but thinking a leaky upper liner o ring may also be possible.
If the counterbore is passing exhaust gas it won't take much to get past the oring. And on intake stroke, no suction obviously to draw water back.
Would also account for spitting coolant out.
Metal spraying and re machining counterbores is a common repair on Cat engines as are all the gallery oring rebates on the deck face.

Have you done a leakdown on the cooling system yet?


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[LandyAndy]

I think he is waiting until he gets Bens results before taking it any further.
We basically want proof that the motor is due to fail as the machine has already been kept longer than it should have.
The CAT goes,I get a brand new machine and my Volvo becomes the maintence grader.
Andrew

[Pedro_The_Swift]

It'l be a John Deere for you--:Rolling:

[LandyAndy]

It'l be a John Deere for you--:Rolling:

A John Deere would be my first choice,had a demo day last year.My Volvo is good,the John Deere was better.It had better low down pulling power than Helga.Loved the hand controls,much easier on the back as your arms are at your sides,plus it has a small steering wheel too when you need to hang on.
More than happy to have another Volvo,great machine best service backup you can have.A neighboring shire has a CAT 12M,nobody likes operating it and when it breaks down they have service back up issues.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Here you go Pedro.
They are the best selling grader in Australia at the moment.
Motor Graders from John Deere Construction Equipment (http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/motorgraders/772g_360.html)
Andrew

[isuzurover]

I think he is waiting until he gets Bens results before taking it any further.
We basically want proof that the motor is due to fail as the machine has already been kept longer than it should have.
The CAT goes,I get a brand new machine and my Volvo becomes the maintence grader.
Andrew

Hope you (and Tony) got the results ok Andy?

Not good...



if it keeps on doing it that quickly its got oil contamination.

Absolutely no oil, fuel (or carbon/soot) in the sample.


This would indicate possibly a porous block.


I suspect you may be right - but it would need to be like a sponge for the levels found...

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Tony called me last night. Most damage would occur when it's sat idle for extended periods not being used and coolant isn't being circulated. It has done 8000 hours over 8 years so it's idle period is fairly high considering there's 8760 hours in a year.
Suggested they get an endoscopic inspection done on the block to see how bad gallery walls are.

Andrew


I am not a moderator, I am a human being!!!

[LandyAndy]

Hi Ben
Yes we got the results.
Thanks HEAPS for doing that.

Bens analysis indicates that the sludge that falls out of suspension is 57% Iron Oxide.No wonder the radiator is blocking up.CAT reccomend replacing the waterpump ASAP.Andrew are CAT waterpumps known to corrode badly????
Andrew

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Hi Ben
Yes we got the results.
Thanks HEAPS for doing that.

Bens analysis indicates that the sludge that falls out of suspension is 57% Iron Oxide.No wonder the radiator is blocking up.CAT reccomend replacing the waterpump ASAP.Andrew are CAT waterpumps known to corrode badly????
Andrew

Not really or at least no worse than any other cast iron component.
Not sure why they would suggest changing the pump though unless they know the impellers dissolved itself. Seems like a makeshift excuse that's starts with the pump and ends up with a new engine.....

As before, draining it and getting access to the galleries will be the only way to assess if anything else is going on inside.
It may well be serviceable with a citric acid soak and flush to descale and burn off any rust but you need to check the limit of corrosion around joints, seals and gaskets particularly around the deck/head seals otherwise it may eat a little too much hence and endoscope is required if your not going to pull heads etc.

Even pulling the gallery plugs along the side will let you peak inside it.

Andrew


I am not a moderator, I am a human being!!!

[isuzurover]

Hi Ben
Yes we got the results.
Thanks HEAPS for doing that.

Bens analysis indicates that the sludge that falls out of suspension is 57% Iron Oxide.No wonder the radiator is blocking up.CAT reccomend replacing the waterpump ASAP.Andrew are CAT waterpumps known to corrode badly????
Andrew

Slight correction Andy - 57% Iron, so likely 99.99% Iron oxide.
The test only gives the amount of pure metal in the sample.

[Sprint]

what was the end result of this? was talking to a guy over here with cooling system problems in a 14G.....

[LandyAndy]

ONGOING.
Grader has been parked for 3 months,mix of the ongoing issue and shortage of staff.
We have just started to use the 12H again,training a new operator.CAT sent 5lts of a cooling system cleaner,basically an acid.It gets left in the cooling system for 30 days,you then drop the coolant and then put the correct CAT OAT coolant back in.We only just added it this week.
Can check tommorow for the correct name/part no of the cooling system flush.
Andrew

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

ONGOING.
Grader has been parked for 3 months,mix of the ongoing issue and shortage of staff.
We have just started to use the 12H again,training a new operator.CAT sent 5lts of a cooling system cleaner,basically an acid.It gets left in the cooling system for 30 days,you then drop the coolant and then put the correct CAT OAT coolant back in.We only just added it this week.
Can check tommorow for the correct name/part no of the cooling system flush.
Andrew

Probably either Cat # 6V4511 or 4C4611.
Need to make sure you get it fully flushed out otherwise it will kill the fresh coolant.
Drain it when stone cold and chase with fresh water, fill with fresh, run, cool, drain, chase, chase, chase and don't forget to chase, fill with ELC while block is still cold and wet inside.
Worthwhile pulling the stat before all the flushing too.


Using Capitals, the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse or helping your uncle jack off a horse...

[Blknight.aus]

take the thermostat out while you're using the acid.