Governor repairs

[gromit]

The governor on my Series 1 is leaking oil, if I leave the drive belt attached the oil ends up sprayed under the bonnet.
Since it's trip to Cooma I removed the belt but want to get the home made welder fired up to try it out so fixing the governor is moving up the priority list.....

Does anyone have any technical details of the governor, especially details of how to strip it down and repair it ? I'm guessing this was a specialised job in it's day so nothing may exist.

The other alternatives are :-

Try one of the solutions that rejuvenates seals and see if that works. Although with the seals now over 50years old this is a long-shot.

Investigate removing the seals from the outside and source & re-fit replacements. This saves dismantling the governor but at this stage I'm not sure how practical it is. It should be fun sourcing the imperial seals so a quick measure up and then sourcing them before ripping the old ones out is the plan.

Just to add to the problems when I removed the governor to degrease it a year or so ago I found that the pulley is cracked so I need to find another or get one turned up !!
Does anyone have a governor pulley for a Series 1 they don't need ??

Picture attached shows the generator & blower (to cool the generator), the red funnel & irrigation hose were the only way to fill the transfer box !

Colin

[JDNSW]

I have an old Autopress Manual covering Series 1 and 2. It has a small section on the governor (mainly concerned with installation), which I can probably scan and email to you if you PM your email. It does show that front of the governor has a ball bearing race and a seal. These should be removable by removing the pulley and the front cover, and taking them to a bearing supplier should raise replacements.

John

[B.S.F.]

I've got an old IBC ESCA catalogue, and the seal is listed as P3281.Any seal shop should be familiar with this number.The L/R part no.is 261573. W.
PS. I know nothing about governors and this may not be what you're talking about.

[gromit]

Thanks John (PM sent) and B.S.F. Nut.

The seal behind the pulley shouldn't be too big a problem but there must be seals where the shaft comes out the side of the body. The worry is that the unit has to be stripped down to get to this area to find out whether it's just an O-ring or a lip seal.

Any clues as to who would have repaired/serviced these governors back when they were more common.
Thinking about it I have to visit a diesel specialist later in the week relating to a problem with the wife's car, I'll ask them and see what they have to say.

Colin

[Blknight.aus]

From what I remember its similar internally to the works of the CAV pump of the diesel of the era, a diesel shop should be able to sort it for you..

[JDNSW]

Thanks John (PM sent) and B.S.F. Nut.

The seal behind the pulley shouldn't be too big a problem but there must be seals where the shaft comes out the side of the body. The worry is that the unit has to be stripped down to get to this area to find out whether it's just an O-ring or a lip seal.

Any clues as to who would have repaired/serviced these governors back when they were more common.
Thinking about it I have to visit a diesel specialist later in the week relating to a problem with the wife's car, I'll ask them and see what they have to say.

Colin

Similar governors were used on petrol engined tractors of the same era Ferguson TEA20?), and some inquiries (starting with tractor dealers or mechanics) should lead to someone (perhaps retired) who can help in most country towns.

John

[series1buff]

If you go to a place that does CNC machining , they will make a new pulley for you . Shop around for a good price . Draw up a good drawing ( takes you back to secondary school days ! ) of the dimensions you need etc, so they can punch the numbers into the machine. It will probably be a "B" section pulley .

Most of the fees are in setting up the machine . Aluminium may be a option too , because you won't be using it 24/7 .

Link for article on making pulleys

http://www.green-trust.org/junkyardprojects/FreeHomeWorkshopPlans/MakingV-BeltPulleys.pdf


Mike

[gromit]

Thanks Guys,

I'm off to the Lake Goldsmith Steam Rally at the weekend, I'll see if I can find someone who can help.


Colin

[gromit]

I found time at the weekend to get the governor on the workbench.

The seal behind the pulley is the culprit. It's an original leather one which isn't quite holding the oil in (just slows the flow down a bit).
The input and output shafts don't appear to be leaking so I'll just replace the seal with a modern one and get onto making a replacement pulley.

I've attached a picture of the seal & the cracked pulley.


Colin

[JDNSW]

It is probably possible to braze that crack in the pulley - you would need to find someone competent to do it though (The whole pulley would need to be heated evenly), and rebalancing would be a good idea afterwards.

John

[gromit]

John,

Our machinist at work is going to make a replacement pulley, I just have to source a piece of cast iron bar.
We thought about aluminium because it isn't going to get much use but if I can get cast iron I'd prefer it.

I did think about a 'bush repair'..... make a large 'washer' to fit over the boss at the front of the pulley and hold it in place with a few screws but I think a replacement is a better option.


Colin

[series1buff]

The steel merchant in Hallam is worth a try . Down the road from MELSTEEL , opposite side of road .... they have a lot of off cuts and sell by weight.

http://www.alloy-steels.com.au/

or this place in Dandenong ..but you have to order first
http://buau.com.au/english/b_1891.htm




John,

Our machinist at work is going to make a replacement pulley, I just have to source a piece of cast iron bar.
We thought about aluminium because it isn't going to get much use but if I can get cast iron I'd prefer it.

I did think about a 'bush repair'..... make a large 'washer' to fit over the boss at the front of the pulley and hold it in place with a few screws but I think a replacement is a better option.


Colin

[JDNSW]

You may find mild steel easier to find than cast iron, almost as easy to machine, and will work just as well if not better in this application.

John

[gromit]

John,

I've just spoken with a customer who makes this sort of thing all the time and he also suggested staying clear of cast iron.
Aluminium is also a possibility with a speedi sleeve fitted where the seal runs or he also suggested steel as a better option, even here he suggested fitting a speedi sleeve rather than trying to get the correct surface finish.

He is going to cut the keyway for me, I think I'll show him the pulley tomorrow and see what he will charge for making it.....


Colin

[gromit]

My customer wasn't interested in making the pulley for me so it will have to wait until the workload drops off in our workshop.

The seal is 11/2"OD 1"ID 3/8" thick. Picked one up locally along with a roll of 0.4mm gasket paper for $5 cash, don't you just love the cash economy...

Colin

[digger]

Gromit,

firstly,
do you have a 'blueprint' for the pulley? there is a bloke near here with huge pile of bits like puleys etc, if I have plans of what you are after I could try and motivate him to fossick through.....(so long as I can hand it (the 'blueprint') to him to use!)

secondly,
recently I was told of a complete already removed governor that may be for sale...

I was interested but can you tell me what the uses are for it? (eg the welder...and?)

what models were they fitted to...
what parts/pieces are required to completely fit it? (eg to make sure its all there)

and lastly what do you think would be a reasonable price (ballpark guess only)

cheers
digger

[gromit]

Digger,

I'll make a sketch & send you a scan thanks....

I've heard of the governor selling for silly money, but it's only worth buying if you have a need for it. If I remember correct there were a couple for sale at Cooma 3 years ago for about $1,000 each.
The part that is often missing is the spring loaded actuator rod.

Uses...basically holding a constant engine speed under varying load conditions. eg. running equipment off the PTO like the welder, a pump etc. that have a varying load on the engine.

I'm no expert but for the governor to work you will need the hand throttle assembly, governor mounting bracket including nuts & studs, pulley, actuator rod & throttle rod plus the bracket on the carby.


Colin

[gromit]

Digger,

Sketch attached.
Apologies for the quality, done while I had lunch. Measurements are with a plastic ruler, all I could find was a blunt pencil to produce the drawing.

I think the pulley will be unique to the governor. The machinist at work will be writing a program next week for the CNC.

Thanks,


Colin

[chazza]

For stationary vehicle use, an engine-oil-cooler is also recommended I believe,

Cheers Charlie

[gromit]

We've been a bit busy at work so our machinist (Tom) has only just found time to start this (partly my fault because I'm in Sales).

The inside of the pulley and the belt groove are finished, one of my customers will machine the keyway for me and then the front of the pulley will be finished off. I just have to check it on the governor shaft and ream as required before the keyway is cut.
Tom found it a challenge (compared to the day-to-day machining he has to do) but wrote a program for our NC lathe.


Colin

[JDNSW]

Interesting the changes in skills and ways of doing things.

In the 1940s when the original was deisgned, the pulley was made of cast iron, because this enabled it to be cheaply made close to the shape required so that minimal machining was required - machining was expensive, because there was no such thing as a NC lathe, and the the best that would be available might be a turret lathe, although that may not have saved a lot of labour on this item. But also, material was expensive, so that using machining to just remove large volumes of metal was not normal practice. The keyway would probably have originaly been cut in a shape, or possibly using a purpose made broach.

But in that time, most tradesmen would have had little hesitation in making the pulley from either steel or aluminium using a simple workshop lathe and cutting the keyway by hand, mostly with a file.

John

[gromit]

Interesting the changes in skills and ways of doing things.

In the 1940s when the original was designed, the pulley was made of cast iron, because this enabled it to be cheaply made close to the shape required so that minimal machining was required - machining was expensive, because there was no such thing as a NC lathe, and the the best that would be available might be a turret lathe, although that may not have saved a lot of labour on this item. But also, material was expensive, so that using machining to just remove large volumes of metal was not normal practice. The keyway would probably have originaly been cut in a shape, or possibly using a purpose made broach.

But in that time, most tradesmen would have had little hesitation in making the pulley from either steel or aluminium using a simple workshop lathe and cutting the keyway by hand, mostly with a file.

John

John,

Setting up for mass production also makes a casting worthwhile whereas a 1off is relatively simple nowadays on an NC/CNC machine.

Our machinist found it a challenge because we manufacture pneumatic cylinders so all we do is machine threads on rods, machine spanner flats, cut aluminium extrusion to length and assemble. The fact that he is 'interested' and runs an old Rover also helps.....

Regarding the keyway, I've just been offered a filing machine which could have been used to make the keyway. When discussing it I found that a lot of people ('engineers') hadn't even heard of a filing machine. A quick look on the interweb and I don't think they are made any more.
I'm lucky to have a customer who puts keyways into sprockets, pulleys etc for a living so it'll just cost a couple of beers.



Colin

[gromit]

The pulley is machined and the keyway cut, just need to find some dry weather to paint it.
One of operating arms of the governor had the connection hole enlarged by wear over the years. I was reluctant to remove it bacause I didn't want to disturb it's position so I drilled a hole in some brass bar then filed the outside to match the worn hole. The piece of brass was then soldered into the arm.

I'm having trouble uploading photos at the moment, once I've sorted that out I'll attach some pics.

Colin