Is it possible to make the ride smoother?

[fender22]

Have a stock std 93 200TDI 110 wagon. The car handles well and rides pretty well with a few passengers or a bit of a load on board but with just me and the wife the ride is pretty rough on the road. Bone jarring over speed humps, potholes etc. Wondering if it's possible to make the ride a bit softer. Probably not something I could do myself. Would it be expensive?

[PhilipA]

Have a stock std 93 200TDI 110 wagon.


The 110 weighs about the same as a Range Rover/Discovery, the weight distribution is similar, so I see no reason that you couldn't fit springs similar to a Discovery , unless you have a Hydromat in which case you could fit RRC rear springs.

The load potential will be less but who puts 900 KG or whatever in their Defender?
Therer is a big choice of springs for Discos at primarily Les Richmond Automotive.
The running gear of a 110 is very similar to an RRC/Disco but I do not know how high you would want it , but AFAIK the castor settings are similar so you probably have the same axle to bumpstop height as a disco anyway.
Regards Philip A

[isuzutoo-eh]

Rear 110/130 Defender springs are a different diameter to rangie/disco/90 springs, keep that in mind when looking through spring catalogues.
This site has great LR specific spring info to help plan your suspension:
land rover spring specifications (http://www.members.shaw.ca/jbarge/springinfo.html)

[Tombie]

You're on the right track though Philip.

Les Richmond does a 270 or 320lb rear for a deefer...

Go the 270lb and see how u go.
If you need heavier Les Richmond do offer a change over in first few days...

[PAT303]

For the life of me I do not know why people buy LR's and then stuff them up buying aftermarket suspension.Original springs with Koni track rider shocks gives very good ride, comfort and handling in Defenders and Disco 1's. Pat

[GuyG]

See if you can get some out of a Puma where the owner has upgraded there springs, possibly due to many accessories. I was able to get a full set that MR Auto had second hand. They are a progressive rated spring also, if the details I have are correct they should be fronts 155/215 and rears 270/420. Although mine are still sitting on the floor waiting to be fitted, regardless they have to be better than what is currently fitted

[JDNSW]

A possible contributor to a hard ride may be that the various suspension bushes have been replaced with harder polyurethan bushes. Reversing this is fairly easy and cheap, refitting either the original rubber bushes or softer polyurethane bushes.

John

[stig0000]

i gota lift and the guy said you want HD springs then,, i said hell no,, i want very very soft lift, there tecnicaly 3' springs, but as there so soft they sag to about 2.5ish and give a perfict ride, just get the right shocks first up, iv swaped onto my 3rd set allready and finaly found my perfict ride,

[isuzurover]

If you want a VERY smooth ride, fit air springs.

I have air springs in the rear, and on the canning recently had an almost identical 110 along. Even though we were both heavily laden, the ride was much better in my 110. (he had soft coils and polyairs in the rear).

Rovercare, Hally and Rangierover all have converted to air springs all round.

[stealth]

Get a Disco or A RR. Defenders are workhorses and the ride is like that for a reason.

[fender22]

Get a Disco or A RR. Defenders are workhorses and the ride is like that for a reason.

Hmmm, I'd like to know what reason that is, forgive my ignorance.
I know the Defender is built to be tough etc but I can't see how hard
springs make the vehicle more capable apart from letting you carry heavier loads. Can understand it in a ute or dual cab but the 110 wagon is essentially a people carrier vehicle built for hard terrain.

I also have a Freeelander 2 which I know is a soft roader but I've had it in some pretty rough stuff and it handles it beautifully and comfortably. And lets face it, a Range Rover should be able to go anywhere a Defender can, albeit in a lot more luxury. Having said that, I choose to drive the Defender over the Freelander because I like driving it. Doesn't mean I want to feel every tiny bump in the road....and if it's that hard on the road, whats it going to be like on a rough track! Banging over potholes and bumps can't do the vehicle any good either.

I've noticed the vehicle does ride 50% better with a decent load or a few extra passengers. Still stiff though. Most of the time it's just me and the missus driving around (her with a long face) so I think if the stock suspensions geared up to lug 2 or 3 tonne payload around, it obviously isn't right for me

Does it benefit the vehicle to have rock hard suspension on or off the road? It would seem to me if the suspension where a little more forgiving things would be less likely to break.

[isuzurover]

Get a Disco or A RR. Defenders are workhorses and the ride is like that for a reason.

????????????????????????????

RRCs and D1s have an identical suspension geometry and link design to 110s, 90s and countys. There is no reason why a 110 cannot be set up to ride just as smoothly.

The 110 should in fact be able to be set up to ride more smoothly than a RRC or Disco, thanks to the longer wheelbase.

NVH is a different issue though.

[Beckford]

I have been told that the new Defender can carry 1,000 kg and the new Discovery can carry 750 kg in the vehicle.

Is this correct?

Beckford.

[PhilipA]

Now this is dredging the memory , but I think there is a taxation law in Australia that specifies that to be able to claim 100% business use on a commercial vehicle,( without justifying with logbooks etc) the payload capacity has to be 1000Kg or above.

This is why all Japanese utes have a 1000KG capacity and indeed why Falcon/Holden utes used to have 1000Kg. And indeed why all the tradies buy twin cab utes and why twin cab utes are the quickest growing market segment in Australia. Holidays subsidised by the government, what could be better????
I think this is why Land Rover commercial type vehicles have a 1000Kg load capacity.

Many years ago Ford used to make a "sedan ride " option for Falcon utes with a 400Kg load limit.

So truth can be stranger than fiction.
Regards Philip A

[isuzurover]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I have been told that the new Defender can carry 1,000 kg and the new Discovery can carry 750 kg in the vehicle.

Don't know about the new one, but my 1987 110 has a payload capacity of 1060 kg or thereabouts.

[JDNSW]

Hmmm, I'd like to know what reason that is, forgive my ignorance.
I know the Defender is built to be tough etc but I can't see how hard
springs make the vehicle more capable apart from letting you carry heavier loads. Can understand it in a ute or dual cab but the 110 wagon is essentially a people carrier vehicle built for hard terrain.

No, the 110 wagon is the people carrier variant of the workhorse Defender, and because it has the same maximum weight as the workhorse Defender, it needs the same stiff springs to carry the load. This is, in fact, why the Defender has a higher payload than most of its competitors.

Does it benefit the vehicle to have rock hard suspension on or off the road? It would seem to me if the suspension where a little more forgiving things would be less likely to break.

No, it does not benefit a vehicle to have rock hard suspension, but the suspension on any vehicle is a compromise. In this case it needs to be stiff enough and set high enough that even of road hitting a bump when carrying the maximum load the suspension will not bottom, but at the same time, stiff enough and set low enough that the suspension will not hit the rebound stops when hitting a similar bump unloaded. Given the designed suspension travel, and the designed maximum and minimum axle load, the optimum spring stiffness and setting is produced, and I suspect the Defender standard springs are pretty close to this. To get softer springing, you need to do one of - reduce maximum load; reduce ability to handle severe bumps; or increase suspension travel and redesign the whole setup - not easy to do, since Rover used about the maximum travel that was feasible with the basic setup when they designed the system in the late sixties.

With the original Rangerover and the early 110, the problem was sidestepped by fitting springs designed for the unloaded axle loading, and coping with extra axle load by using a Boge levelling strut. But this is expensive, and even then the maximum load is reduced (comfortable ride though, and could almost certainly be fitted to a Defender at a cost). I just fitted Defender Springs when the Boge unit stopped working.

John

[land864]

I had heard that Bilstein Shocks , Variable rate springs and Polyairs to the rear is the best way to go.

I think it was Mary W from up Mildura way that had done something similar.

BTW JD , how does one know when one's Boge Hydromat has stopped working:confused:

[85 county]

my rise is so soft that i float down the road.

original county with LL

[PhilipA]

BTW JD , how does one know when one's Boge Hydromat has stopped working:confused:
There is usually oil all over the rubber gaiter.LOL
There is a test procedure involving 500Kg of bricks and drive for some kilometers and a previous and subsequent measure of ride height. If it ain't risen its daid.
Regards Philip A

[land864]

What about 5 of your mates that weigh 100kg:)

[JDNSW]

........

BTW JD , how does one know when one's Boge Hydromat has stopped working:confused:


There is, as suggested, a laid down test procedure, which is along the lines of "park for 24hrs unloaded, measure spring stop clearance. Load half a dozen bags of cement in the back, drive half a kilometre over a not too smooth road, measure clearance on spring stops. Should be the same withing x mm".

But basically, I found that with a full load, it was sitting on the stops and stayed there.

John

[justinc]

I would first of all try some decent shocks. The standard 110 Defender springs are very smooth WITH GOOD SHOCKS. I have transformed many 110's and even 130's by fitting DeCarbon shocks and leaving the springs alone. This gives you good load carrying with excellent ride. (The County is smoother again due to softer rear springs.)

I have had these shocks on my RRC and now my 110 for 7 years and LOTS of bad roads and they still feel like they did when I fitted them.

Also, after fitting many sets over the years I have had only 1 warranty claim on 1 shock due to MINOR leakage. NONE due to failure or breakage.

They are worth a try for sure, you won't be disappointed.


JC

[rovercare]

For the life of me I do not know why people buy LR's and then stuff them up buying aftermarket suspension.Original springs with Koni track rider shocks gives very good ride, comfort and handling in Defenders and Disco 1's. Pat

Springs are a bit like shocks Pat, putting better springs in, is a bit like replacing the standard shocks with Koni raids;)

[lambrover]

For the life of me I do not know why people buy LR's and then stuff them up buying aftermarket suspension.Original springs with Koni track rider shocks gives very good ride, comfort and handling in Defenders and Disco 1's. Pat

Come on Pat there are better set ups than standard, I have 3 inch Dobinson coils and they are great way better than standard.

The standard shock set up is crap I think as you are left with bugger all down travel, why is it you can fit those two inch lower shock mounts for standard shocks if they are so perfect, just one area rover should have made better

[ugu80]

For the life of me I do not know why people buy LR's and then stuff them up buying aftermarket suspension.Original springs with Koni track rider shocks gives very good ride, comfort and handling in Defenders and Disco 1's. Pat

My trip to Dobinsons would have to be the best thing I've done for my 130.

[JDNSW]

..........

The standard shock set up is crap I think as you are left with bugger all down travel, why is it you can fit those two inch lower shock mounts for standard shocks if they are so perfect, just one area rover should have made better


Is it possible that this is because it sits a lot lower when at maximum load? Compromise you have with any load carrying vehicle unless you have self levelling suspension, but it gets worse the more the difference between loaded and empty axle load.

John

[PAT303]

OK stop jumping on me,how many of you have bought ARB/TJM 2'' lift springs that are the same length as the originals but twice as stiff with thier matching crappy shocks?.Buying the same rate springs but longer with good shocks(koni's/billies) is the only way to go. Pat

[PhilipA]

OK, I will stick my neck out here as I do not have a lot of actual experience with 110(well none really).

However The layout is virtually exactly the same as a RRC /Disco at the front and the back is heavier to carry de load, but the same in layout.

The standard springs according tothe Canadian site are
Front 155/215 and are handed 15.4 L and 14.6 or something R.

SO- as long as they have not sagged or there is a winch and heavy bullbar there the front springs should be fine for ride.

So I would be looking on the front to see if there is a bullbar and winch there which compresses, the "ride" portion of the springs.
If there is , you may be better off with a set of say Range Rover LRA green or pink.

If you do NOT have a winch and Bullbar and you can see daylight between the coils at top or bottom that are closer together ( ie they are not sagged )then someone has believed the hype and replaced the shocks with nice firm sporty ones and ruined your ride.

The rear is a bit tougher as there does not seem to be any lighter springs available than the standard 270/420 to carry 1000KG or whatever, except for LR OEM 180 lb springs to suit a load leveller. If you have the holes in the back crossmember for the top mount for a load leveller then one could be fitted. This will be a revelation in ride.

I think the ride will be quite firm with those rear rates but again I would ensure that the shocks are not sporty specials and that the "ride" portion of the springs has not sagged so that the coils are together.
Regards Philip PS , you could always have lighter springs custom made by Lovells or someone to your spec, and I would suggest maybe 220lbs and place airbags inside for load.

[lambrover]

JDNSW, but it's no excuses for having a crap shock set up, longer shocks don't mean its going to carry less of a load. They could have designed a shock that has more down travel to suit the amount of travel available from the mounts, its not rocket science it's just being cheap.


PAT303, because you said this:

Originally Posted by PAT303
For the life of me I do not know why people buy LR's and then stuff them up buying aftermarket suspension.Original springs with Koni track rider shocks gives very good ride, comfort and handling in Defenders and Disco 1's. Pat
My comment is about the fact you said it is crazy to modify from standard, then you say later on that it's the ARB and TJM kits that are crap, and I agree they are. As you stated they are the same height but stiff as hell, giving a crap ride and no flex. Then later on say that longer coils of the same rate are the way to go and change the shocks to koni's. I agree, so it appears that you actualy do like modified suspension after all :D.

Originally Posted by PAT303
Buying the same rate springs but longer with good shocks(koni's/billies) is the only way to go

So it would be best to say that the best way to modify your landy suspension is to fit longer coils of the same or similar rate, ie dobinson coils and a good shock ie Koni, bilstiens. It comes down to how much knowledge the buyer has about products, but thats just my opinion.

[rick130]

I would first of all try some decent shocks. The standard 110 Defender springs are very smooth WITH GOOD SHOCKS.
[snip]


JC

Ditto what JC said.

LR's standard dampers appear to have absolute bucket loads of low and mid speed bump, making the ride harsh on less than smooth surfaces.

[PAT303]

JDNSW, but it's no excuses for having a crap shock set up, longer shocks don't mean its going to carry less of a load. They could have designed a shock that has more down travel to suit the amount of travel available from the mounts, its not rocket science it's just being cheap.


PAT303, because you said this:

Originally Posted by PAT303
For the life of me I do not know why people buy LR's and then stuff them up buying aftermarket suspension.Original springs with Koni track rider shocks gives very good ride, comfort and handling in Defenders and Disco 1's. Pat
My comment is about the fact you said it is crazy to modify from standard, then you say later on that it's the ARB and TJM kits that are crap, and I agree they are. As you stated they are the same height but stiff as hell, giving a crap ride and no flex. Then later on say that longer coils of the same rate are the way to go and change the shocks to koni's. I agree, so it appears that you actualy do like modified suspension after all :D.

Originally Posted by PAT303
Buying the same rate springs but longer with good shocks(koni's/billies) is the only way to go

So it would be best to say that the best way to modify your landy suspension is to fit longer coils of the same or similar rate, ie dobinson coils and a good shock ie Koni, bilstiens. It comes down to how much knowledge the buyer has about products, but thats just my opinion.

I do like modified suspension but only if done right,ARB/TJM is what most people buy as an improvement but improvement it's not. Pat

[steveG]

I would first of all try some decent shocks. The standard 110 Defender springs are very smooth WITH GOOD SHOCKS. I have transformed many 110's and even 130's by fitting DeCarbon shocks and leaving the springs alone. This gives you good load carrying with excellent ride. (The County is smoother again due to softer rear springs.)

I have had these shocks on my RRC and now my 110 for 7 years and LOTS of bad roads and they still feel like they did when I fitted them.

Also, after fitting many sets over the years I have had only 1 warranty claim on 1 shock due to MINOR leakage. NONE due to failure or breakage.

They are worth a try for sure, you won't be disappointed.


JC

I'll be after some decent shocks shortly and would be keen to give them a try.
Is there a local supplier for the DeCarbon's, and a particular model/part no/length you use JC? (for an Isuzu 110).

Steve

[stig0000]

iv just put new bushs allround on mine,,, made a bigg diff to the feel of it over bumps,,, feels all nice tight again:D wont flex aswell now tho,

so just another thing to check,, maby ya rubber bushs have all failed, make the ride feel harsh

[isuzurover]

except for LR OEM 180 lb springs to suit a load leveller. If you have the holes in the back crossmember for the top mount for a load leveller then one could be fitted. This will be a revelation in ride.


I, and a few others I know have the 180lb rears and no load leveller (because it died and was removed). This option is fine if you don't carry heavy loads.

However fitting air springs made a huge improvement in ride over the soft springs.

[rick130]

[snip]

However fitting air springs made a huge improvement in ride over the soft springs.

That has to be the ultimate setup for those of us that constantly carry a load.

I ripped the inner springs out of the 130 and with the soft long travel dampers I have it makes a world of difference to the ride. (and I tare at or close to 3000kg)

[land864]

When you say air springs do you mean something like 'Poly Air ' assist bags inside rear coils?

My mate in Vic who is a RWC tester has advised that retrofitting just air bags and shock abs in lieu of coil springs and shock abs is not an option in Vic.

What have people heard about variable rate coils springs ?

[Benny_IIA]

When you say air springs do you mean something like 'Poly Air ' assist bags inside rear coils?

My mate in Vic who is a RWC tester has advised that retrofitting just air bags and shock abs in lieu of coil springs and shock abs is not an option in Vic.

What have people heard about variable rate coils springs ?


They sag:angel:..

But offer a soft rider until loaded up then they sit in the stiffer part of the coil.

[rick130]

When you say air springs do you mean something like 'Poly Air ' assist bags inside rear coils?

My mate in Vic who is a RWC tester has advised that retrofitting just air bags and shock abs in lieu of coil springs and shock abs is not an option in Vic.

What have people heard about variable rate coils springs ?

Yes, Ben is talking about retrofitting air bags.

Variable rate springs are just a coil with a closer wind at one end (or sometimes taper ground wire) that become coil bound as the spring compress locking out that section and giving a harder rate as it works on the remainder of the wider spaced coils, so it all comes back to what the rate of the spring is anyway.

Someone way back on the first page suggested the rear springs out of a late model Defender which are variable rate, IIRC something like 270/280lb/in going up to 420 or so.
The rear springs in the rear of yours should be 330lb/in constant rate, (Land Rovers 110 heavy duty option, that was standard spec for Australia) if it's original still.

[isuzurover]

When you say air springs do you mean something like 'Poly Air ' assist bags inside rear coils?

My mate in Vic who is a RWC tester has advised that retrofitting just air bags and shock abs in lieu of coil springs and shock abs is not an option in Vic.

What have people heard about variable rate coils springs ?

No - as Rick mentioned I don't mean polyair type assist bags. They do not improve ride.

I mean these:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/561.jpg

I suspect your mate is misinformed. There are people on here from VIC who have converted to air bags. I have spoken to RWC inspectors in WA and QLD and neither have had issues with the mod - so I can't see VIC being any different. Companies like airbagman sell kits in all states (including VIC) AFAIK.

[justinc]

I'll be after some decent shocks shortly and would be keen to give them a try.
Is there a local supplier for the DeCarbon's, and a particular model/part no/length you use JC? (for an Isuzu 110).

Steve

Hi Steve, If you would like to give me a call on Monday, 0408 995 635 I can get the numbers for you. (They are at work). If you miss me, just leave a message I'll ring you back.

JC

[land864]

Ben

I will ask again as I had considered the air bags at one time.

Have the people in Vic who have done the conversion checked with their insurer to make sure that they are still covered and that the conversion is RWC.

You haven't spoken to any RWC inspectors in Vic then?

I'm sure there is lots of stuff sold that could either void your insurance or make a vehicle unroadworthy

[farmport]

I fixed the problem on my 03 xtreme by fitting Tough Dog shocks and then adding a second set of shocks angling backwards - Rancho 9000 adjustable. The reason I did this is that the main reason for the harsh ride with the heavy coils is that, particularly when unladen, the harshness comes more from the spring rebound rate (that sharp kick in the bum when you go over a speed hump) than anything and I couldn't find a shock that adequately handled this without also having excessive compression damping. Its not perfect but very close and enables me to 'dial in' exceptional road manners off road with varying loads, and is nearly as good as my countys on the highway.

[jakeslouw]

Why not just pre-load the springs with a 100KG load in the back? That will stop that harsh rebound due to there being no load.

[dromader driver]

Playing with the tyre pressures can make a big difference. My trayback 110 usually runs lower rear pressure no load than the haines book figure and it is much more comfortable. Tyre wear seems to be unchanged and not getting much heat buildup. :)

[fender22]

I think most of my issues are in the front, seems hard and unforgiving. The back could be better of course too. Are there already shocks in the front and back?
Is it just a matter of replacing them with something else?

[Sith]

I have 130 heavy duty springs in the front with Bilstiens , I have rubber top mounts from a D2 part number Land Rover Genuine Parts Rubberized Spring Isolator (ANR2938) and on top of the spring Land Rover Genuine Parts Rubberized Shock Tower Securing Ring (RBC100111)

I replaced all the orig rubber bushes with premium poly , and wish I never did .

In the rear I have Kings special order 330lbs ... with Bilstiens , with the OME 10mm Trim Packer (OME80PR10)

The amount of vibration and road noise was greatly reduced by the packers adn the rubberised mounts , the springs and shocks as a complete set up transformed the ride handling on and off road .

hth

[Didge]

Well fender22, opened a can of worms here didn't ya? Feeling thoroughly confused? I have four Disco 1 or 2 springs you can have if you want. You can try em out and if they're no good you can ditch them or recycle them (that'd be better), but I'm south of Sydney and it'd only be worth trying if you we can find someone on the site willing to take them from me to you if they're travelling up your way.
cheers Gerald
ps I remember asking one bloke what defenders were like before I got one and he said "they are what they are" and I guess he was right :)

[chuck]

I guess that tyres also play a huge part in ride comfort.

I remember driving home in an 84 hilux with standard skinny tyres with split rims & the ride was terrible.

I had planned to get different rims & tyres(31 x 10.5 desert duellers) & when I did they transformed the ride with far improved comfort & better grip.

Tyre pressures also contribute to poor ride.
On gravel roads I used to always air down a bit in my D2 & this helped greatly with both comfort & grip.

Regards

Chuck

[ThorneGator]

This h s (sorry, the letter left of the "s" is not working suddenly) been gr8t help so f r. I hve been considering new springs (which ones???) nd set of Bilsteins. But... this ir springs suppession hs my interest. Smoother ride it seems with retained lod capbility, but wht re the drwbcks? Trvel?

Cheers


No - as Rick mentioned I don't mean polyair type assist bags. They do not improve ride.

I mean these:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/561.jpg

I suspect your mate is misinformed. There are people on here from VIC who have converted to air bags. I have spoken to RWC inspectors in WA and QLD and neither have had issues with the mod - so I can't see VIC being any different. Companies like airbagman sell kits in all states (including VIC) AFAIK.

[marty]

I found that adding more weight ( as far as the minister for fun is concerned a vital equipment to keep the defender running) the better the ride got, it also saved time looking for stuff when iget chance to go anywhere. Marty

[isuzurover]

This h s (sorry, the letter left of the "s" is not working suddenly) been gr8t help so f r. I hve been considering new springs (which ones???) nd set of Bilsteins. But... this ir springs suppession hs my interest. Smoother ride it seems with retained lod capbility, but wht re the drwbcks? Trvel?

Cheers

Hi TG,

There are not really any significant drawbacks at all that I have found. If you fit the right size bags you will get as much travel as the suspension links and shocks can give you - in fact I have more travel than before!

Advantages:
Much smoother ride.
Ride is just as soft with no load or fully loaded.
(usually) more articulation - and much smoother articulation.
Can drop suspension down to load/unload (I have found this very handy as I often carry a tandem kayak on the roof).

Disadvantages:
Need a compressor
More complex than steel coils
More expensive than coils (depending on setup)
Possibly less robust than coils (but bags are VERY tough and can be repaired with tubeless tyre plugs)

[VladTepes]

Just saw this thread.
Mate from Zimbbwe was telling me an old "Bushies trick"... supposedy.... well, he reckons it worls.

Jack vehicle up til there is apce at top of the coils.....
Fill space inside coils with tennis balls as many as will fit.
Drop (lower) vehicle from jacks.
Drive car - if too hard, pop a tennis ball in each corner with a screwdriver.
Continue until ride is to your liking !





NB I am NOT recommending this, but if you try it let us know how it goes.

[isuzurover]

Just saw this thread.
Mate from Zimbbwe was telling me an old "Bushies trick"... supposedy.... well, he reckons it worls.

Jack vehicle up til there is apce at top of the coils.....
Fill space inside coils with tennis balls as many as will fit.
Drop (lower) vehicle from jacks.
Drive car - if too hard, pop a tennis ball in each corner with a screwdriver.
Continue until ride is to your liking !





NB I am NOT recommending this, but if you try it let us know how it goes.

Vlad, doing this won't improve the ride, it will make it firmer. I know peoplw with polyairs who carry tennis balls in case the poly-airs fail on a trip.

The tennis balls apparently don't last very long, so it is by no means a long-term fix.

[jakeslouw]

Yes that's an old Africa trick! Before we knew what airbags were!

[VladTepes]

Ben I wasn;t suggesting it was a GOOD plan.... :lol: Cheers

[Loubrey]

Fender,

While there is a lot of good advice posted and as always it's down to your personal preference, I think Chuck touched on it a couple replies ago...

What pressure do you run your tyres at? While you're working out what you want to do with the suspension, have a look at running a couple PSI lower. There's appears to be major panic about sidewall damage, but I've for many years now changed my tyre pressure to suit the days driving and the last suspected (not confirmed) sidewall blowout I had was in 1997 (touch wood!!!).

On a serious note though, give it a thought. High pressures are bouncy, rattly and generally uncomfortable when the car is unloaded, and slightly lower pressures will absorb a lot of that. My Puma 90 spends 80% of its life at 2 bar (29 Psi) because it bounces like bugger at factory recommended pressures and at 12000km barely shows wear on the tyres.

Cheers!

[ThorneGator]

Thanks for the help!

Do you run (or is it typical) to have the airbag suspension on all four wheels, or just the rear two wheels?

Secondly, I have been a fan of Bilsteins, but is there a particular shock that is well suited to these?

And last, are there manufacturers/ brands that are better than others? Have you had experience with good/ bad ones?...... I figure if it is more expensive, then I better do it once and do it right$.

Cheers

(it't nice to have a working "A" again.)


Hi TG,

There are not really any significant drawbacks at all that I have found. If you fit the right size bags you will get as much travel as the suspension links and shocks can give you - in fact I have more travel than before!

Advantages:
Much smoother ride.
Ride is just as soft with no load or fully loaded.
(usually) more articulation - and much smoother articulation.
Can drop suspension down to load/unload (I have found this very handy as I often carry a tandem kayak on the roof).

Disadvantages:
Need a compressor
More complex than steel coils
More expensive than coils (depending on setup)
Possibly less robust than coils (but bags are VERY tough and can be repaired with tubeless tyre plugs)

[isuzurover]

Thanks for the help!

Do you run (or is it typical) to have the airbag suspension on all four wheels, or just the rear two wheels?

Secondly, I have been a fan of Bilsteins, but is there a particular shock that is well suited to these?

And last, are there manufacturers/ brands that are better than others? Have you had experience with good/ bad ones?...... I figure if it is more expensive, then I better do it once and do it right$.

Cheers

(it't nice to have a working "A" again.)

I have just done the rears (so far). Hally, Rovercare and Rangierrover have all done all 4 wheels (and posted up pics of their setups).

I have kept my bilsteins and am happy with them. Though others have different opinions of their suitability. An Air spring has slightly more inherent damping than a coil (which has none).

There are several airspring manufacturers, however Firestone (which most of us have used) had as good a reputation as any.

[Bush65]

... An Air spring has slightly more inherent damping than a coil (which has none)...
I don't think inherent damping is the issue. The main difference (compared to coils) is that air springs have a much lower spring rate, which it turn results in a lower natural frequency.

Some people may not think they can have a much lower rate because they put such emphasis on this when considering coil spring upgrades and changing ride heights, but they need to remember with air springs, the ride height is changed by adding or subtracting air, not by changing spring rate. The spring rate is non-linear, particularly at the travel limits, but doesn't change much over much of it's range.

As a coil is compressed on bump, the force (= spring rate x deflection) in the spring increases much more than and needs more rebound damping compared with air springs.

[isuzurover]

I don't think inherent damping is the issue. The main difference (compared to coils) is that air springs have a much lower spring rate, which it turn results in a lower natural frequency.

Some people may not think they can have a much lower rate because they put such emphasis on this when considering coil spring upgrades and changing ride heights, but they need to remember with air springs, the ride height is changed by adding or subtracting air, not by changing spring rate. The spring rate is non-linear, particularly at the travel limits, but doesn't change much over much of it's range.

As a coil is compressed on bump, the force (= spring rate x deflection) in the spring increases much more than and needs more rebound damping compared with air springs.

I had thought it would be the other way around - air spring would increase in rate much more rapidly than a linear rate spring when compressed... However I based that on no calculations whatsowever which was of course silly.

On a related note, can you comment on how increasing the unsprung mass - e.g. by adding portals and/or bigger wheels would affect a coil vs an air suspension system?

[Sly]

Just buy a discovery for when your having one of those ( soft ) days.

[rovercare]

Mine rides like crap on full air, but the shocks are yet to be revalved to suit, hopefully in the next few weeks, paying jobs and new house/workshop have certainly got in the way

[rovercare]

Mind you they are good, I had literally 3 ton of packing sand on the tray, had to drive home at 60 clicks as it was wobbly, but still level, one Exscavator on it's side, sand had to be pulled of the tray where I didn't want it......but that's another story:D

[Bush65]

I had thought it would be the other way around - air spring would increase in rate much more rapidly than a linear rate spring when compressed... However I based that on no calculations whatsowever which was of course silly.

On a related note, can you comment on how increasing the unsprung mass - e.g. by adding portals and/or bigger wheels would affect a coil vs an air suspension system?
The spring rate does change when compressed, but it is starting from a lower baseline. Also where not talking large articulation at crawl speed, when considering shockies and onroad handling.

Sorry I can't add anything useful in regard to increasing unsprung weight with air vs coil springs.

[rick130]

FWIW an air spring is an inherently rising rate spring, but obviously if you start with a very large volume of air this can be negated somewhat over the normal working range of the spring.

In the packaging sizes needed in race cars, gas springs were abandoned quickly, the rising rate being the killer compared to the preferred linear rate of a (conventionally wound) coil. (drivers tend not to cope too well with a non linear response)
Getting OT a little, torsion bars are now almost universally used in F1 due to lower friction (compared to a coil over shock spring) and better packaging thanks to the high rates used.


High(er) unsprung weight always adversely affects ride quality but I'm wondering if the lower initial rate of the air spring helps to reduce the effect ?
Just watching a truck with air suspension vs massive leaf springs the air suspended truck complies much better to road irregularities, particularly patter type bumps rather than bouncing across the tops of them.

Normally unsprung weight is controlled by the dampers and the greater the unsprung weight the more bump force that needs to be present in the damper to control it.
(The old rule of thumb with damping is that bump controls unsprung weight, rebound controls the chassis)

[ThorneGator]

I spoke with the 'airbag man' yesterday regarding their system. I am impressed that the rear system is 'bolt on', no mods required.

But there is still one hurdle, what are the RTA regulations (in NSW) regarding this? I dont know if anyone who has done the airbag mod lives in NSW, but I would be interested in your experience.

Cheers