hard to start when cold - holden conversion

[Jimmy]

So I've relaced the plugs, leads, points, oil, filters, cleaned the carby and tuned her up but the 186 is still hard ot get going in the mornings.

any thoughts?

cheers
Jim

[JDNSW]

Not familiar with Holden engines, but a few possibilities - is the choke working properly? Does it have a resistor (or resistive lead) in the coil primary, but has a coil that is intended not to have this? The other general comment is that if the engine is turning slowly with the starter, this could be due to poor connections or a faulty battery or starter, and even if not bad enough to stop the starter turning the engine, could be dropping the voltage low enough to affect the spark enough to give hard starting.

Wear resulting in low compression may also cause hard starting, particularly when cold with no lubrication to the rings.

John

[bee utey]

How fast does it crank? Battery, battery cables and starter motor should all be in good nick. The starter can easily be dismantled, cleaned and the bronze bearings oiled. Ditto on the ignition side, but you are best off with a blue motor electronic distributor conversion.

[navigation2000]

How fast does it crank? Battery, battery cables and starter motor should all be in good nick. The starter can easily be dismantled, cleaned and the bronze bearings oiled. Ditto on the ignition side, but you are best off with a blue motor electronic distributor conversion.

bee utey is completely correct in saying that you'd be better off with the HEI ignition.

Upgrading to HEI is without a doubt the most cost effective modification you can ever make to these engines, or to any older engine for that matter.

In the "bang for your buck" department, no other modification can even hope to compete with that one...:BigThumb:

[Ratel10mm]

Please excuse the slight hijack, but what does fitting the electronic starter achieve? Better fuel economy? I'm interested as I'm buying a 179 engined Landy @ present.

[pfillery]

How fast does it crank? Battery, battery cables and starter motor should all be in good nick. The starter can easily be dismantled, cleaned and the bronze bearings oiled. Ditto on the ignition side, but you are best off with a blue motor electronic distributor conversion.

Will this improve things when the engine has been converted to gas? I've got mine in today having gas put on, some say you need different points, plugs, leads, oil, flashlube etc, but no idea what is really needed. Bee utey - what do you reckon? a bit off topic I know but the electronic dizzy is one thing that has been mentioned so far.

Is it as simple as fitting a hall effect type device in the dizzy or is a complete unit better? and are you better getting one of the new non genuine types from ebay etc or looking at wreckers for a proper one off a 202 motor?

[navigation2000]

Please excuse the slight hijack, but what does fitting the electronic starter achieve? Better fuel economy? I'm interested as I'm buying a 179 engined Landy @ present.

The area is ignition/distributor, not starter motor.

A starter motor has no effect whatsoever on fuel economy.

[Ratel10mm]

Um yes, of course. :oops2::oops2::whistling::blush::imwithstupid:

So, I know A/C, not internal combustion engines. That's clear! ;)
Does fitting electronic ignition improve fuel economy? If not, why is it the single best upgrade 'bang for buck'?

[navigation2000]

Um yes, of course. :oops2::oops2::whistling::blush::imwithstupid:

So, I know A/C, not internal combustion engines. That's clear! ;)
Does fitting electronic ignition improve fuel economy? If not, why is it the single best upgrade 'bang for buck'?

Ok, by fitting a suitable HEI distributor, you'll be afforded the opportunity of increasing the spark plug gaps, which are set at something like 0.9mm (points), out to around 1.3 or 1.5mm with HEI.

You'll have to forgive me if my plug gap figures aren't spot on, but I haven't used those things in quite a while now.

Anyway, it's all about exposing the unburned fuel/air mixture to an improved ignition medium, in this case a more powerful (fatter), and significantly longer spark.

This bigger and fatter spark, is in turn exposed to a greater volume of the unburned fuel at the moment of ignition, resulting in a bigger and faster flame kernel, which for ease of explanation, burns more fuel faster.

From memory, the fuel economy increase attributed to HEI would be somewhere in the area of 10% or so.

The extra HP/Torque delivered by the efficiency increase is then largely responsible for the resultant fuel economy increase, for it means you need less throttle (at any set point) than you did previously. Of course this point is debatable/arguable, but that's my take on it anyway.

But alas, herein lies the tricky bit, because if you then opt to exploit this new found HP/Torque by driving the engine harder/faster than you could have previously, then while you'll still see an economy improvement across the board, the actual/true % of it may not become apparent until you've tired of driving like a lair, if you ever do...

It's more than probable that once you have a little bit of extra grunt underfoot, you will tend to apply it. It's just the way it is.

:burnrubber:

[bee utey]

There are three main reasons HEI type ignition systems benefit an old engine:

1. The stronger spark allows you to run leaner mixtures and still fire them reliably. This helps emissions (primary reason why GMH put them on) and economy.

2. Constant spark energy. Unlike points systems where the spark output voltage is highly dependent on battery voltage, HEI dissy output is still full at relatively low voltages such as experienced at cold cranking speeds. They drop out under a quite low voltage, when your starter has almost stopped cranking.

3. They REMAIN IN TUNE!!! Points go out of adjustment quite quickly, so are slightly out of tune about 1/2 the time they are installed. Electronic dissy tuning remains where it is set for very long periods.

For 6 cylinder Holdens the original Bosch dissy from the blue motor is by far the best. They appear on ebay from $20 to $350, depending on condition. As with all things on ebay, you can get a bargain or get ripped off. A middle of the road one will give you the least risk, such as this one:

HOLDEN GENUINE BOSCH 6cyl ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTOR 202 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOLDEN-GENUINE-BOSCH-6cyl-ELECTRONIC-DISTRIBUTOR-202-/370507421688?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5643f697f8)

They should always be fitted with a replacement drive gear, either a new nylon one as recommended by Holdens or a steel oil pump gear off a wrecked oil pump, as done by me heaps of times with 100% success.

BTW for LPG they are the bees knees so long as plug gaps are set at around 0.9mm. Otherwise cold starting and backfiring issues may occur.

[pfillery]

There are three main reasons HEI type ignition systems benefit an old engine:

1. The stronger spark allows you to run leaner mixtures and still fire them reliably. This helps emissions (primary reason why GMH put them on) and economy.

2. Constant spark energy. Unlike points systems where the spark output voltage is highly dependent on battery voltage, HEI dissy output is still full at relatively low voltages such as experienced at cold cranking speeds. They drop out under a quite low voltage, when your starter has almost stopped cranking.

3. They REMAIN IN TUNE!!! Points go out of adjustment quite quickly, so are slightly out of tune about 1/2 the time they are installed. Electronic dissy tuning remains where it is set for very long periods.

For 6 cylinder Holdens the original Bosch dissy from the blue motor is by far the best. They appear on ebay from $20 to $350, depending on condition. As with all things on ebay, you can get a bargain or get ripped off. A middle of the road one will give you the least risk, such as this one:

HOLDEN GENUINE BOSCH 6cyl ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTOR 202 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOLDEN-GENUINE-BOSCH-6cyl-ELECTRONIC-DISTRIBUTOR-202-/370507421688?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5643f697f8)

They should always be fitted with a replacement drive gear, either a new nylon one as recommended by Holdens or a steel oil pump gear off a wercked oil pump, as done by me heaps of times with 100% success.

BTW for LPG they are the bees knees so long as plug gaps are set at around 0.9mm. Otherwise cold starting and backfiring issues may occur.

Are these hard to set up on the vehicle or is it as simple as slip it in and adjust the position of the dizzy to suit the same timing setting as the old one? I'd assume they wire in the same way etc?

When you say to use a new drive gear, do you mean the one on the dizzy itself or the one on the oil pump? Not being entirely familiar with 186's I wanted to know what you meant, which gear should be replaced and why?

[jerryd]

Would that distributor fit the 186 motor ?? I have difficulty starting mine when it's cold.

[bee utey]

Would that distributor fit the 186 motor ?? I have difficulty starting mine when it's cold.

Yes all inline 6 cylinder Holden engines from 1963 to 1984 share the same design around the dissy and oil pump.

[Ratel10mm]

Thanks for the replies everyone. :) It's all much clearer now. :)

[Wolfman_TWP]

I installed an electronic dissy kit, similar to what bee utey linked to on ebay.

It came with the dizzy, coil, and leads. I just replaced the original with the new. Mounted the coil in the original Holden coil location, wired it all up. Fired her up, and she started first go.. Tuned it, and it runs heaps better.

It does have trouble starting, if I haven't started her in a few weeks. But I got around that by, just pulling the choke, pumping the accelerator a few times, and then she starts first go.. I've also noticed that the engine responds much better too, now .. This is a Holden 186 Red motor.

As for fuel economy, don't know yet, haven't driven her enough to notice the improvements.. But I'm sure there would be.. I put in a newly re-conditioned carburettor, which will help too..

Wolf