Stronger front axle - what is it?

[SheldonA]

Thought some people might be interested in my latest tinkering....

Guess what it is :)

37549

[isuzurover]

Thought some people might be interested in my latest tinkering....

Guess what it is :)

37549

Looks Nissota... I will guess 80 or 105 series front axle with Landie hubs.

[wagoo]

Would it be a Nissan or Toyota front end to which you are grafting Range Rover Classic swivel housings and hub assemblies to ?
Question is why not use the complete front end instead of building a hybrid one?
Wagoo.

[SheldonA]

Looks Nissota... I will guess 80 or 105 series front axle with Landie hubs.

Nope not 80 or 105 series.... :)

[popemobile]

Well, its high pinion, banjo, coil sprung, with fore aft radius bushes.....

v6 coily 4 runner??

How are you getting a high pinion to clear oil filter/ and or sump?

Whats it going in/ what motor above it.


I had to mod sump to get a sals front under a 300tdi in a defer...

[SheldonA]

Would it be a Nissan or Toyota front end to which you are grafting Range Rover Classic swivel housings and hub assemblies to ?
Question is why not use the complete front end instead f buiding a hybrid one?
wagoo


Why not use complete front end? So I can keep the same wheel stud pattern to my rear and not shear studs :)

Not really any grafting so to speak..... :)

[popemobile]

I retract my guess on the account that the vehicle i guessed doesnt even run beam axle front :bangin:;)

altho all the other statements about it i think are right and should be plenty of infor to find out after research.

[wagoo]

My last guess is a GQ Nissan,soley based on the observation that the cv joint on the floor appears to be about the same diameter as the RRC one beside it,and no Toyota style electic difflock gubbins on the r/h/s of the diff.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

Nissan Patrol (GQ?) front?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/596.jpg

(and I think I just found where you got the idea :D )

(no wait - he kept it 6-stud)

[jakeslouw]

Wouldn't it be easier to just swop both axles?

Oops but the Nissan GQ is a 4.625:1 ratio?

[Rangier Rover]

Looks similar to what I'm working on here.....:angel:
Nissan GU 4.8 petrol 3.54ish ratio with ARB locker running 24spline side gears?

[wagoo]

Wouldn't it be easier to just swop both axles?

Oops but the Nissan GQ is a 4.625:1 ratio?

4.11:1 over here I think.
Wagoo.

[rovercare]

Wouldn't it be easier to just swop both axles?

Oops but the Nissan GQ is a 4.625:1 ratio?


4.11:1 over here I think.
Wagoo.

3.9 in lots of mavericks and petrol auto, 4.6 in 2.8 diesels, 4.1 in most all else

[SheldonA]

Yes - Patrol GQ

Used the GQ as opposed to the GU as it has basically the same King/Swivel Pin inclination as the Rover - the GU doesn't.

Right now it is;

Nissan axle casing, nissan diff and nissan inner axles - all standard parts (although this diff has an ARB )

Then Rover swivel housing, stubs, bearings, hub, brakes etc, then Rover CV Bell and outer drive member/axle (using Range Rover 10 spline just cause I have them laying about, will work with 24 spline as well) - all standard parts.

To link the outer Rover CV Bell to the Nissan inner axle it has a Toyota CV star.

To bolt her up under a Rover, other than a modified Panhard rod and drive shaft mod., it needs only 3 different 'non-wearing' parts with a total part count of 6. Oh then mounting of the shocks - I plan to put air springs on this so most likely keeping the standard Nissan locations.

To keep things even easier, it looks like with some machining of the stub axles, a bush and a new drive member splined to the Nissan outer axle that the standard Nissan full axle can be used.

Can some one confirm that GU CV's are stronger than GQ? And that they are interchangeable? If this is the case then this will be the way to go.


Plan is to put it under the Isuzu 110. Really only started out wanting to put a turbo on my motor - so I could smoke all 4 wheels like Dougal can ;) Figured I would need a stronger drive train first. Gearbox - check. Front axle - on its way. Then might get around to finishing the turbo...... Lucky Rovers last for years!

Oh plus the Patrol Axle tubes are 90mm dia. compared to 80mm of the Rover so should help prevent some bending with the Isuzu above it.

[SheldonA]

3.9 in lots of mavericks and petrol auto, 4.6 in 2.8 diesels, 4.1 in most all else

Can get;

3.54
3.9
4.11
4.375
4.63
4.88

For the Patrols.

[SheldonA]

Wouldn't it be easier to just swop both axles?

Oops but the Nissan GQ is a 4.625:1 ratio?


Nope will be easier to just swap the front.

I am happy with the strength of my rear salisbury.


Might even do a second axle and get rid of the hi-pinion 4.88 Toyo Bunderra diff in the front of my 90 and leave the hilux in the rear.

[isuzurover]

To link the outer Rover CV Bell to the Nissan inner axle it has a Toyota CV star.


So the nissan inner axles are 30/27 spline?

What does the track end up at?

The radius arms are wider-spaced on a nissan aren't they?

As for GQ vs GU - sounds like GU are slightly larger and the inner spline is different:

inner splines are different as its a different series joint GU is a 109lac NTN ,GQ is a 100ac NTN so you would have to use GU axles which are to long for your housing and as already said they wont fit in your swivel housing anyway. The only way to use GU cvs in a GQ is to fit the whole diff

GU cvs are apparently a lot stronger though.

[SheldonA]

So the nissan inner axles are 30/27 spline?

Yes


What does the track end up at?

Not 100% sure yet. Standard Patrol is slightly wider, but Patrol swivel housing are slightly wider than the rover. Instead of measuring each component and calculating, I figured I will just build it all up and when complete measure it. Saves on error stack (what I am not perfect?).


The radius arms are wider-spaced on a nissan aren't they?

From my measurements the Rover is 21mm wider - hardly worth worrying about.


As for GQ vs GU - sounds like GU are slightly larger and the inner spline is different:


GU cvs are apparently a lot stronger though.

Hmm I thought with a little mod, they would fit :(

[SheldonA]

<Snip>

As for GQ vs GU - sounds like GU are slightly larger and the inner spline is different:


<Snip>

ARB Locker Application chart says same Locker, same axles spline and diameter for the GQ/GU.....

[isuzurover]

ARB Locker Application chart says same Locker, same axles spline and diameter for the GQ/GU.....

The splines in the CV star.


pic of a GU CV beside a GQ CV ...
the axle of the GQ is smaller than the GU and it just spins inside the GU's cv joint. the outer spline count and diameter is the same 32mm 31 spline so free wheeling hubs should interchange.
The GQ C.V. is marked ... "birfield-NTN 100 AC"


The Gq axles have a 29mm 27 spline outer end 43mm long and a 32mm 31 spline inner end 50mm long.
The short axle is 416mm long and the long axle is 916mm long.

So even if you could squeeze the GU CVs in, you would still need custom inner axles as the GU inners are too long.

[rick130]

Eccentric bushes can 'fix' the GU camber/castor angles somewhat.

I can't recall what we ended up with on ours, only had one side altered to stop the constant wander/pull to the left and shoulder scrub.

Any idea what the KPI is on the GQ vs GU ?

[edit] Don't worry about me, just remembered the combination includes a Rover swivel :hand slapping forehead:

[2nd edit] One thing I love about the GU front end is the much better turning circle over a GQ (and a Landy) thanks to the wider track.

[SheldonA]

Eccentric bushes can 'fix' the GU camber/castor angles somewhat.

I can't recall what we ended up with on ours, only had one side altered to stop the constant wander/pull to the left and shoulder scrub.

Any idea what the KPI is on the GQ vs GU ?

[edit] Don't worry about me, just remembered the combination includes a Rover swivel :hand slapping forehead:

[2nd edit] One thing I love about the GU front end is the much better turning circle over a GQ (and a Landy) thanks to the wider track.

Yeah can't use the GU eccentric bushes on the Rover housing, and the GU has too much of a different KPI to do a similar thing on the Rover housing.

KPI;

GQ 7 to 8 degree

GU 13.75 to 15.25 degree

Rover 7 degree

[SheldonA]

The splines in the CV star.



So even if you could squeeze the GQ CVs in, you would still need custom inner axles as the GU inners are too long.

Ben,

I think you meant GU CV's? I was looking at using the whole inner, CV and outer axle of the GU. Spline counts are the same either end. GU inner is a bit longer from what you've just said - right? Do you know how much? If not too much and they are wasted then a little trim should solve. Then the GU CV's are bigger right? This could be a problem. Do you have a link or the pic your quote was from?

Otherwise I stick with the GQ axles :)

Thanks

[wagoo]

I think GU CVs are similar in size to 80/100 series toyotas at 105mm diam. They won't go inside a Rover swivel housing.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

Ben,

I think you meant GU CV's? I was looking at using the whole inner, CV and outer axle of the GU. Spline counts are the same either end. GU inner is a bit longer from what you've just said - right? Do you know how much? If not too much and they are wasted then a little trim should solve. Then the GU CV's are bigger right? This could be a problem. Do you have a link or the pic your quote was from?

Otherwise I stick with the GQ axles :)

Thanks

Yes, sorry, GU.

GQ C.V. joints - Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum (http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/nissan-patrol-gq-y60-ford-maverick-11/gq-c-v-joints-350/)

both cvs seem the same in the pic...

[uninformed]

are the GQ radius arms shorter than Rover?

regarding cv's Mal Story had a longfield 80 series cv in his hand once and with a quick measure,figured it could fit in a rover coil swivel by:

#1, turning the cv bell down to the dia of the flat spots on the outside, the bell on these is very thick compared to a stock AEU2522.

and in conjunction with

#2, some machining on the inside of the swivel ball....

this was just a quick 2 minute measure up...never followed up...

[Bush65]

I'm sure the point has been made, but just in case the GU cv's are larger than GQ, but stub shafts are same size so they end up similar strength.

Patrol radius arms are same length as rover (from chassis bush to axle centre), but centres between bushes at the axle end is much greater (even greater than cruiser).

[uninformed]

hi John,

was there also something about the bearings???? being smaller on the Nissan than the Toy that stopped the internals on the Nissan being upgraded to what size a Toy could be??? not sure if this was a Toy 60 series or 105 etc etc

[SheldonA]

I'm sure the point has been made, but just in case the GU cv's are larger than GQ, but stub shafts are same size so they end up similar strength.

Patrol radius arms are same length as rover (from chassis bush to axle centre), but centres between bushes at the axle end is much greater (even greater than cruiser).

So what your saying is: If you upgrade to GU cv's (assuming/given they are larger) then your limiting factor becomes the stub shafts - which aren't that much stronger than a GQ cv?

[rovercare]

Gq cvs are not really much better than rover stuff, I wouldn't stress, gu are stronger, but if people are that serious you can get ashchroft, cal off road etc, just your going to find gu stuff far more expensive, also gu track is wider again

[SheldonA]

Gq cvs are not really much better than rover stuff, I wouldn't stress, gu are stronger, but if people are that serious you can get ashchroft, cal off road etc, just your going to find gu stuff far more expensive, also gu track is wider again

Thanks

Was hopeing that the Rover inner axles were the same length as the GQ (the short side is 37mm shorter in the GQ, long side not sure - I throw the Rover one out in a recent shed clean up). Then would of wacked side gears in the GQ ARB to suit Rover splines and just run full Rover gear - beats having to make custom drive flanges as well then.... pity.

[wagoo]

I have been thinking about this for some time, so I'll put it out there for opinions.Many tractor wheels have bolt on centres, mainly to allow the operator to alter track width, dependant on which way around the centre is refitted, to suit different conditions Instead of going to the hassle of mixing/matching components just to end up with the same stud pattern front and rear, why not do the same with just the spare wheel. Have two bolt on centres, 1 at 5 stud LR, the other 6 stud Nissota?
Wagoo.

[Bush65]

hi John,

was there also something about the bearings???? being smaller on the Nissan than the Toy that stopped the internals on the Nissan being upgraded to what size a Toy could be??? not sure if this was a Toy 60 series or 105 etc etc
Yes - the outer wheel bearing is smaller.

[Bush65]

So what your saying is: If you upgrade to GU cv's (assuming/given they are larger) then your limiting factor becomes the stub shafts - which aren't that much stronger than a GQ cv?
Stub shafts are same size and strength.

[Bush65]

Thanks

Was hopeing that the Rover inner axles were the same length as the GQ (the short side is 37mm shorter in the GQ, long side not sure - I throw the Rover one out in a recent shed clean up). Then would of wacked side gears in the GQ ARB to suit Rover splines and just run full Rover gear - beats having to make custom drive flanges as well then.... pity.
For me, because the nissan front diff is offset further the housing interference with the right side bump stop, thus limiting up travel, is the issue I least with fitting nissan axle assembly into a rover.

Following discussions with another member from here about fitting nissan diff centres to rover housings, he has taken it far enough to prove the concept. I have enough parts to proceed as well but don't have time as yet.

The opening in the rover housing needs some cutting for the nissan diff to drop in. A spacer (about 7.5 mm thick) is required, and new studs to suit the nissan flange. Some strengthening of the housing, alteration to the cover, axles etc.