PUMA - Drivetrain Upgrade

[Drover]

Just got my shipment from Ashcroft Transmissions in Luton UK.

These guy's are very easy to deal with and nothing is to much bother.

All of the bits are of very high quality and the machining is outstanding.

In the kit.....

· Front and Rear heavy duty half-shafts.
· 2 x ABS CV Joints.
· 4 x Drive Flanges.
Beatrice from Ashcroft’s, arranged for the purchase to be completed in two separate consignments, keeping each under the $1000AUD’s and avoiding the import tax.
Just need to fit them now:D
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/994.jpg

[PAT303]

Drover,do puma's wear the flange splines like the Tdi's did?. Pat

[TwoUp]

Looks good Drover,
Any chance of placing one of the old shafts next to a new one for comparison photo?

Are they doing a front locker as yet?

Regards,
PeterW

[Drover]

Pat,

They come with an advice sheet warning to keep drive flanges/axels lubricated or excessive ware can occur, so I guess....yes

TwoUp,

Comparison photo’s wont be a problem, just need to find the time to get the old ones out.

Ashcroft’s have just released front and rear locker for the PUMA, there was a thread on here somewhere (not defender section) from a member who just got one.

Cheers

[Psimpson7]

nice!!

[JohnR]

Nice, When did you order? Ashcrosft's told us they were out of flanges for 4 weeks about 10 days ago! We have ours on order from the states now. Waiting.........

[Drover]

Nice, When did you order? Ashcrosft's told us they were out of flanges for 4 weeks about 10 days ago! We have ours on order from the states now. Waiting.........


I got the same storey about 3 weeks ago, but they contacted last me Thursday to say that they had a couple of orders that weren't collected.....so my luck day.

Their new stock should be in late next week ;)

[wagoo]

Pat,

They come with an advice sheet warning to keep drive flanges/axels lubricated or excessive ware can occur, so I guess....yes

TwoUp,

Comparison photo’s wont be a problem, just need to find the time to get the old ones out.

Ashcroft’s have just released front and rear locker for the PUMA, there was a thread on here somewhere (not defender section) from a member who just got one.

Cheers

Drover, Do you know if the outer splines on the halfshafts and matching drive flanges are longer than standard? The longer splines on the earlier 110's to 200TDIs lasted a very long time even allowing for that they were oil lubricated.
Wagoo.

[Allan]

Just got my shipment from Ashcroft Transmissions in Luton UK.

These guy's are very easy to deal with and nothing is to much bother.

All of the bits are of very high quality and the machining is outstanding.

In the kit.....

· Front and Rear heavy duty half-shafts.
· 2 x ABS CV Joints.
· 4 x Drive Flanges.
Beatrice from Ashcroft’s, arranged for the purchase to be completed in two separate consignments, keeping each under the $1000AUD’s and avoiding the import tax.
Just need to fit them now:D
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/994.jpg

This is now some SVX. I need to con the other half that all this is needed for mine

Allan

[Drover]

Drover, Do you know if the outer splines on the halfshafts and matching drive flanges are longer than standard? The longer splines on the earlier 110's to 200TDIs lasted a very long time even allowing for that they were oil lubricated.
Wagoo.

Hey Wagoo,

Not 100% sure, I am learning as I go.

The Ashcroft site refers to the "Original thin type flange" so I assume that these new ones are longer.

They also mention to keep flange and axel lubricated to avoid "fretting corrosion".

On early oil filled swivels oil migrated along the CV stub shaft and lubricated the drive member spline, on later grease filled hubs this migration does not occur so regular attention is required

I am hoping to convert to oil lubricated during the fitting of the new bits".

Cheers

[pc3]

Just got my shipment from Ashcroft Transmissions in Luton UK.

These guy's are very easy to deal with and nothing is to much bother.

All of the bits are of very high quality and the machining is outstanding.

In the kit.....

· Front and Rear heavy duty half-shafts.
· 2 x ABS CV Joints.
· 4 x Drive Flanges.
Beatrice from Ashcroft’s, arranged for the purchase to be completed in two separate consignments, keeping each under the $1000AUD’s and avoiding the import tax.
Just need to fit them now:D



Drover would the part # differ for a 130 PUMA....no ABS etc. ?

[Drover]

Drover would the part # differ for a 130 PUMA....no ABS etc. ?

Ashcroft's web site only lists 90's and 110's.

I would say that 130's would be same as the 110's.

I didn't use part numbers just told them what vehicle the parts were for and what parts I wanted.

Cheers

[rick130]

Drover, Do you know if the outer splines on the halfshafts and matching drive flanges are longer than standard? The longer splines on the earlier 110's to 200TDIs lasted a very long time even allowing for that they were oil lubricated.
Wagoo.

When I bought my Maxi ones all those years ago Paula suggested i go for the X version Mal made as they use the longer spline, and by a couple of comments on here over the years it makes a difference.

[wagoo]

When I bought my Maxi ones all those years ago Paula suggested i go for the X version Mal made as they use the longer spline, and by a couple of comments on here over the years it makes a difference.
Rick, with your trucks rear wheels having ''more toe in than your fronts'' longer splines, on more snug fitting MD shafts and drive flanges, do you find that your drive flange bolts regularly work loose?
Wagoo.

[Bush65]

Rick, with your trucks rear wheels having ''more toe in than your fronts'' longer splines, on more snug fitting MD shafts and drive flanges, do you find that your drive flange bolts regularly work loose?
Wagoo.
I experienced loose bolts after fitting maxi axles and flanges with the bolts that they supplied. I never used loctite, but cured that problem by using longer bolts - had to pilot drill part of the threads from the hub, to accommodate the longer body length of the bolts I had.

[Bush65]

...

They also mention to keep flange and axel lubricated to avoid "fretting corrosion".

...
For those who don't know what fretting corrosion is, it is a type of corrosion that occurs as a result of relative movement at the joint between mating parts. The corrosion appears like red rust.

It can occur even between tight fitting parts - commonly seen between bearings and shafts.

[rick130]

Actually I measured toe out on the rear last time I strung the car, and that was nine years ago when I last had a flat piece of concrete to work on :D

But no, never had the problem that some do of bolts working loose and didn't use oversized bolts either, just standard bolts, standard paper 'star' gaskets, cleaned surfaces and 243 Loctite.

[wagoo]

Actually I measured toe out on the rear last time I strung the car, and that was nine years ago when I last had a flat piece of concrete to work on :D

But no, never had the problem that some do of bolts working loose and didn't use oversized bolts either, just standard bolts, standard paper 'star' gaskets, cleaned surfaces and 243 Loctite.

So your axle may not necessarily be out of true. My experience and theory is that any vehicle that regularly loosens or breaks driveflange bolts probably has a bent axle housing. This problem seemed to be more common on Discoveries with one piece axle driveflange units, but I have known it to occurr on some Defenders and Series vehicles after being fitted with the more precisely made Maxidrive units. The relatively loose tolerances of the standard stuff worked a bit like a universal joint to compensate for the misalignment.
I just got a sense of De Ja Vu. Have I written all this tosh before?
Wagoo.

[stig0000]

mmmm nice shiny new parts,

[Drover]

Well got turnning spanners yesterday, out with the old in with the new (rear anyway)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/890.jpg
Stock axel / flange out.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/891.jpg
Down to the hub / disk assembly, needed to buy a 52mm socket - a very big nut.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/892.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/893.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/894.jpg
Comparison shot of the stock items and the Ashcroft items.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/895.jpg
Strip down with stub removed, needed to go this far to remove internal oil seal to allow wheel bearings to be oil lubricated.

There is also a grease seal at the back of the hub/disk assembly that needed to be change for a oil seal - forgot to take a photo.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/896.jpg
All back togather ready for the wheel and test drive.......:D

Just the front end to go.

Thanks to Garry at English Auto Service at Tuggerah for his help and advice, :BigThumb:

[Nera Donna]

Drover, Carpet on the garage floor! Now that’s flash! :wasntme:
Seriously but, good information and pictorial.

Cheers
Craig

[patclan]

Drover,
Dumb question time, the new parts dont look too different, what is the upside of doing the change? Is it just that they are better quality and more reliable? Or will it fix a particular issue you have?

I am picking and choosing what upgrades to do and following the trends, call me a sheep!!

Just wondering what the advantage of them is really.

cheers
Pat.

[Bush65]

...

Thanks to Garry at English Auto Service at Tuggerah for his help and advice, :BigThumb:
Good report there Drover.

Also good choice of adviser there as well - Garry is one of the best Land Rover mechanics about.

[Drover]

Drover,
Dumb question time, the new parts dont look too different, what is the upside of doing the change? Is it just that they are better quality and more reliable? Or will it fix a particular issue you have?

I am picking and choosing what upgrades to do and following the trends, call me a sheep!!

Just wondering what the advantage of them is really.

cheers
Pat.


Pat,

Ashcroft axels and CV's are made from 4130 Alloy steel. Their CV’s are custom designed and their machine work is exceptional, the axels, drive flanges and CV's are known as the strongest items on the market, without question.

My wife and I intend to do a lot of touring and some will be in very remote places. A lot of the time we will be alone.

I am trying to make my PUMA as strong and reliable as possible. It will never be used as an extreme off roader, but places like the Simpson, Cape York and the Canning are all on a long list.

The last thing I want to do is to have to undertake repairs or wait for parts ETC on the side of some track in the middle of know where.

These up graded parts certainly fill a questionable void in the reliability of the drive line.

Cheers
Grant

[wagoo]

I haven't kept myself completely up to date on axle shaft technology, but if Dave Ashcroft visits this thread, would he care to comment on the decision not to waste down the shaft diameter between the splined ends, to alllow the shaft to torsionally flex evenly over its entire length, instead of concentrating the torsional stress at the smaller cross sectional area of the splines? Have new material specifications and heat treatment techniques rendered this practice obsolete?
Would anyone else with relevant knowledge care to comment?
Wagoo.

[LowRanger]

I haven't kept myself completely up to date on axle shaft technology, but if Dave Ashcroft visits this thread, would he care to comment on the decision not to waste down the shaft diameter between the splined ends, to alllow the shaft to torsionally flex evenly over its entire length, instead of concentrating the torsional stress at the smaller cross sectional area of the splines? Have new material specifications and heat treatment techniques rendered this practice obsolete?
Would anyone else with relevant knowledge care to comment?
Wagoo.

Bill

This seems to be a very common practice in the U.S. now as well

Wayne

[wagoo]

Bill

This seems to be a very common practice in the U.S. now as well

Wayne

Wayne. What is now common practice? Wasting down or not doing so? To my knowledge most of the popular US shaft makers don't do it,probably for reasons of cost. But more engineeringly inclined outfits such as Daimler Benz for example, waste down the Unimog halfshafts.
They are so particular about itin fact that shorter shafts are wasted down more than the longer ones so that torsional flexibility is equal over all 4 shafts.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

Rick, with your trucks rear wheels having ''more toe in than your fronts'' longer splines, on more snug fitting MD shafts and drive flanges, do you find that your drive flange bolts regularly work loose?
Wagoo.

I had major problems on the canning with rear flange bolts working loose, however I think the problem was more down to the fact that I had maxi county flanges and halfshafts in a defender axle, and the PO hadn't increased the bolts length sufficiently to account for the spacer. I drilled and tapped the hubs to M12 and fitted longer bolts - no problems since.



I haven't kept myself completely up to date on axle shaft technology, but if Dave Ashcroft visits this thread, would he care to comment on the decision not to waste down the shaft diameter between the splined ends, to alllow the shaft to torsionally flex evenly over its entire length, instead of concentrating the torsional stress at the smaller cross sectional area of the splines? Have new material specifications and heat treatment techniques rendered this practice obsolete?
Would anyone else with relevant knowledge care to comment?
Wagoo.

Those axles appear to be waisted to the modulus of the spline cross section, rather than to the root diameter of the splines.

As far as my limited metallurgy/mechanics goes, this should ensure reasonably uniform stresses along the shaft.

However waisting to the root diameter of the splines would be preferable.

[wagoo]

Those axles appear to be waisted to the modulus of the spline cross section, rather than to the root diameter of the splines.

As far as my limited metallurgy/mechanics goes, this should ensure reasonably uniform stresses along the shaft.

However waisting to the root diameter of the splines would be preferable.

An engine reconditioning firm I once worked for, after every race meeting would receive the diff/axle components etc from a couple of V8 Supercar teams for crack testing. The shafts were also full floaters and splined both ends.
They were wasted down to well below the root diameters and polished to a mirror finish to eliminate potential stress risers.
Wagoo.

Oh no,got that De Ja Vue feeling again.Time to give it all away and pursue other interests.

[isuzurover]

They were wasted down to well below the root diameters and polished to a mirror finish to eliminate potential stress risers.
Wagoo.

I didn't realise we were talking money-no-object options here :D

They were probably gun drilled to save weight as well?

Bush65 designs such items for a living AFAIK (or used to). I am sure he will be back soon to add more to this.

[Psimpson7]

Drover, Do you know if the outer splines on the halfshafts and matching drive flanges are longer than standard? The longer splines on the earlier 110's to 200TDIs lasted a very long time even allowing for that they were oil lubricated.
Wagoo.

I have the 'x type' 10mm longer axles and flanges from hytuff in the back of my 90 which are running oil lubed and I am not totally happy with them.

They already have a noticeable amount of slack (compared to when they were fitted) in the splines between the axle and flange.

I am hoping they dont get any worse but I am fully expecting one to fail at some point.

Admitedly the car gets hammered but they have only been in for about 20k km or so.

[wagoo]

I didn't realise we were talking money-no-object options here :D

They were probably gun drilled to save weight as well?

Bush65 designs such items for a living AFAIK (or used to). I am sure he will be back soon to add more to this.

Come on Ben .How much more expensive would it be to knock the diameter down? The finish on Daves shafts seems adequate enough. I'm only thinking how to give those marginal Rover crownwheels and pinions a sporting chance.
Wagoo.

[wagoo]

I have the 'x type' 10mm longer axles and flanges from hytuff in the back of my 90 which are running oil lubed and I am not totally happy with them.

They already have a noticeable amount of slack (compared to when they were fitted) in the splines between the axle and flange.

I am hoping they dont get any worse but I am fully expecting one to fail at some point.

Admitedly the car gets hammered but they have only been in for about 20k km or so.

Have you checked the housing for straightness? The best shafts and flanges in the world won't last much longer than originals if the housing is bent.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

Come on Ben .How much more expensive would it be to knock the diameter down? The finish on Daves shafts seems adequate enough. I'm only thinking how to give those marginal Rover crownwheels and pinions a sporting chance.
Wagoo.

What evidence do you have that reducing necking down the axles will reduce stress/fatigue in ring and pinions???

I agree it wouldn't be much more expensive - however the big question is would it make a difference to the life of any components in practical terms?

Honing/polishing to improve the finish would be expensive though:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/765.jpg

[Drover]

Hey Guys,

Very interesting this topic and certainly it is good information to learn with, this info is straight from the ashcroft web site....




All our heavy duty halfshafts carry a 5 YEAR breakage warranty

We manufacture three types of heavy duty halfshaft to fit the front and rear axles of the Range Rover, Discovery and 90. We also supply shafts to fit the late type (2003 onward,) 110 rear axle. Our shafts are made from '4340' alloy steel. We have also made some design improvements to remove the stress concentration which typically causes failure at the diff end, this allows the shaft to flex along its length absorbing much of the shock loads.

We are interested in 3 things :

1) torque applied, 2) total twist, 3) Elasticity,

The graphs below show the results of the testing we have done on the front and rear landrover halfshafts.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/763.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/764.jpg

[Psimpson7]

Have you checked the housing for straightness? The best shafts and flanges in the world won't last much longer than originals if the housing is bent.
Wagoo.

I am pretty sure the housing is straight. The originals being a 90 were the one piece ones. They lasted generally ok, apart from a couple of instant failures.:D

For the rears next time I will try Ashcroft or Rovertracks (who's front end I have and cant fault)

[wagoo]

[QUOTE=isuzurover;1528698]What evidence do you have that reducing necking down the axles will reduce stress/fatigue in ring and pinions???

Ben,I can't believe you asked that question.Tell you what. Just between you and me, If you want to delete it, I'll do the same on this reply;) .
One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to work out that a shaft that can flex to absorb shock loadings, such as when a spinning wheel suddenly finds traction, will also reduce the impact shock on the rest of the drive train that is supplying torque to that shaft. It's similar in a way to how the spring loaded slipping clutch on a tractor mounted slasher protects the driveline when the blades strike a hidden rock or tree stump. Or why the flexible torsion bars on my Holden Jackaroo prevent me and the rest of the vehicle from disintegrating when the front wheels strike a bump.
As I mentioned earlier, the finish on Daves shafts is probably good enough without requiring honing and polishing. After all, the torsion bars on the jackaroo weren't polished and live in an unfriendly environment, and they've flexed millions of times in their 400.000 km lifetime.
Wagoo.

[LowRanger]

Wayne. What is now common practice? Wasting down or not doing so? To my knowledge most of the popular US shaft makers don't do it,probably for reasons of cost. But more engineeringly inclined outfits such as Daimler Benz for example, waste down the Unimog halfshafts.
They are so particular about itin fact that shorter shafts are wasted down more than the longer ones so that torsional flexibility is equal over all 4 shafts.
Wagoo.

Bill

As you mentioned,not waisting down.

Wayne

[LowRanger]

I am pretty sure the housing is straight. The originals being a 90 were the one piece ones. They lasted generally ok, apart from a couple of instant failures.:D

For the rears next time I will try Ashcroft or Rovertracks (who's front end I have and cant fault)

I also have Keiths (Rovertracks) axles and Cvs in the front of my 110 and run 35's and certainly don't take it easy,and I can't fault mine either.I have already twisted a set of Maxi rear axles and flogged out a set of rear drive flanges.I now have a set of Hi Tuff axles and flanges,so will be interested to see how they last.When I had my axles and diff centre out,we checked the housing and it is straight.

Wayne

[ashtrans]

I haven't kept myself completely up to date on axle shaft technology, but if Dave Ashcroft visits this thread, would he care to comment on the decision not to waste down the shaft diameter between the splined ends, to alllow the shaft to torsionally flex evenly over its entire length, instead of concentrating the torsional stress at the smaller cross sectional area of the splines? Have new material specifications and heat treatment techniques rendered this practice obsolete?
Would anyone else with relevant knowledge care to comment?
Wagoo.

Hi Wagoo,

ours are waisted, the diameters are reduced over about 50mm with a big rad at the shaft end of the taper so it's not obvious to the eye but they are waisted exactly for the reasons above, to help get the stress away from the splines and allow them to flex,

Dave

[wagoo]

Hi Wagoo,

ours are waisted, the diameters are reduced over about 50mm with a big rad at the shaft end of the taper so it's not obvious to the eye but they are waisted exactly for the reasons above, to help get the stress away from the splines and allow them to flex,

Dave
Thanks for the reply Dave.As you say,the wasting isn't obvious in the photos, but the better finish and lack of stress risers compared to the originals certainly is.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

[QUOTE=isuzurover;1528698]What evidence do you have that reducing necking down the axles will reduce stress/fatigue in ring and pinions???

Ben,I can't believe you asked that question.Tell you what. Just between you and me, If you want to delete it, I'll do the same on this reply;) .
One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to work out that a shaft that can flex to absorb shock loadings, such as when a spinning wheel suddenly finds traction, will also reduce the impact shock on the rest of the drive train that is supplying torque to that shaft. It's similar in a way to how the spring loaded slipping clutch on a tractor mounted slasher protects the driveline when the blades strike a hidden rock or tree stump. Or why the flexible torsion bars on my Holden Jackaroo prevent me and the rest of the vehicle from disintegrating when the front wheels strike a bump.
As I mentioned earlier, the finish on Daves shafts is probably good enough without requiring honing and polishing. After all, the torsion bars on the jackaroo weren't polished and live in an unfriendly environment, and they've flexed millions of times in their 400.000 km lifetime.
Wagoo.

Bill - I should have added "in real world LR applications" to the end of that sentence.

I was trying to say there is no evidence that waisted axles will make any of the other components last longer in a landie - in a measurable real world sense.

E.g. All the waisting in the world won't stop the crownwheel flexing away from the pinion under drive torque.

[Bush65]

I didn't realise we were talking money-no-object options here :D

They were probably gun drilled to save weight as well?

Bush65 designs such items for a living AFAIK (or used to). I am sure he will be back soon to add more to this.
Waisting shafts and head bolts etc. that are subject to shock loads will greatly increase their life if done properly.

This is done to increase the resilience so the energy from shock loads is absorbed by converting it to strain energy in the material.

Taking as example a typ half shaft, there is a stress raiser at the splines, which limits the static strength. If the shaft is not waisted, the torsional stress in the unwaisted section will be much lower than at the spline section.

Waisting the shaft so as much of the shaft as possible is stressed to the same level, maximises the resilience and the strain energy that can be created. The stress in the half shaft is not greater than at the splines, but the shock load seen by components, including half shaft, cv's, ring and pinion is reduced by the impact energy absorbed as strain energy in the shaft.

Details such as stress reducers (e.g. fillets where diameters change) should be used.

[Bush65]

[QUOTE=wagoo;1528910]

Bill - I should have added "in real world LR applications" to the end of that sentence.

I was trying to say there is no evidence that waisted axles will make any of the other components last longer in a landie - in a measurable real world sense.

E.g. All the waisting in the world won't stop the crownwheel flexing away from the pinion under drive torque.
People can claim that because fatigue life can vary by a lot, particularly because the load spectrum will vary greatly, but it doesn't make it a correct statement.

[wagoo]

[QUOTE=wagoo;1528910]


E.g. All the waisting in the world won't stop the crownwheel flexing away from the pinion under drive torque.

Ben, the crownwheel wouldn't flex away from the pinion if the wheels had no traction. and IMHO it is doubtful that even standard 2 pinion carrier would flex even at maximum tractive effort.I believe it is shock loads that flex the carriers, and either destroy diffs instantlly, or contribute to fatigue that leads to failure even when the diff is subject to relatively light loads. Since shock torque is generally much greater than drive torque, a shock absorbing medium such as a torsionally flexible halfshaft must reduce carrier flex and contribute to longer life.
Wagoo.

[Drover]

Front End - here we go....

Wheel and Brake calliper off, 2 x 13mm bolts and release clip on brake line to remove calliper. Factory drive flange removed 5 x 17mm bolts plus one cir clip on the end of the axel.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/680.jpg

Next remove hub, 6 x 17mm bolts

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/681.jpg

Hub off, CV joint and axel exposed

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/682.jpg

Ensure wheels are straight, then simple pull out.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/683.jpg

The factory CV and Axel compared to the Ashcroft items

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/684.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/685.jpg


The next 2 photo's are of the end on the axel that fits in to the CV and the CV, the small cir clip must be depressed while pushing the axel into the CV, push until you hear a click and the axel is fitted.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/686.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/687.jpg

To convert the PUMA front wheel bearings to oil lubricated you need to replace a grease seal with an oil seal at the back of the disk assembly shown

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/688.jpg

Part number shown.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/689.jpg

You also need to remove another oil seal located inside the hub. There is a roller bearing race in front of this seal. Do Not attempt to remove this bearing. Use a screw diver and gentle collapse the oil seal and remove. This will allow the diff oil to migrate along the CV shaft out to the wheel bearings.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/690.jpg

Reverse the process, use loctite as you go and your done.

[Bush65]

... Since shock torque is generally much greater than drive torque, ...
A suddenly applied load at zero speed will double the static load. In the real world most shock loads also include motion which adds kinetic energy to the doubled load.

[wagoo]

Drover, Is there only a single wheel bearing adjusting nut on Deefers now? If so how is it locked in place?
Just to clarify to avoid possible confusion, the component you called a hub is actually the stub axle or spindle in American terminology. The hub is the component that contains the wheel bearings and the brake disc is bolted to.
Wagoo..

[Drover]

Drover, Is there only a single wheel bearing adjusting nut on Deefers now? If so how is it locked in place?
Just to clarify to avoid possible confusion, the component you called a hub is actually the stub axle or spindle in American terminology. The hub is the component that contains the wheel bearings and the brake disc is bolted to.
Wagoo..

Okay cool, hub, spindle - got it....

Yes, only one giant nut, 2 1/16 or 52mm.

Locks in place by bending over a rim of thinner metal on the outside of the nut. The "spindle" ;) has a machined flat edge that allows the rim of the nut to push against, once folded over, stopping it from working loose.

Not sure about adjustments, was told be English Auto service just do it up as tight as you can get it.

Did it that way, could still turn the "hub" ;) with only slight resistance by hand, so it seemed okay.

Have done nearly 250k's since Friday and all is well, not even an oil leak since converting from grease to oil lubed bearings - happy days....

[rick130]

Drover, Is there only a single wheel bearing adjusting nut on Deefers now?
[snip]
Wagoo..

Bill, IIRC it's been that way since the TD5 came out.
I think they use a machined spacer between the two taper rollers so that the pre-load is factory set and you just do the nut up as Drover said.

[wagoo]

Bill, IIRC it's been that way since the TD5 came out.
I think they use a machined spacer between the two taper rollers so that the pre-load is factory set and you just do the nut up as Drover said.

Thanks Rick. 300TDIs are the last models I've been intimate with. But how do you compensate for wear in the wheelbearings? Shims like a Rover diff pinion?
Wagoo.

[Bush65]

Thanks Rick. 300TDIs are the last models I've been intimate with. But how do you compensate for wear in the wheelbearings? Shims like a Rover diff pinion?
Wagoo.
Bill, I don't have personal experience with TD5 or later wheel bearings (so stand to be corrected), but have seen them described as unit bearings. What I infer from the name unit bearing, is a one piece outer ring and 2 cones with pre load as Rick said.

I suspect (but don't know) they are renewed and not adjusted when worn, but wear combined with closer bearing spacing, is not an advance over earlier arrangements IMHO.

[isuzurover]

Bill, I don't have personal experience with TD5 or later wheel bearings (so stand to be corrected), but have seen them described as unit bearings. What I infer from the name unit bearing, is a one piece outer ring and 2 cones with pre load as Rick said.

I suspect (but don't know) they are renewed and not adjusted when worn, but wear combined with closer bearing spacing, is not an advance over earlier arrangements IMHO.

A quick search turned up this on landyzone...


When they say "buy the whole hub" they don't mean that you end up buying a quarter of a ton of front axle bits.

The front wheel bearing bearing unit in a TD5 axle isn't made from plain ordinary bearings that you can buy for a couple of pounds. That would be too easy. Its a made up unit, two roller bearings inside a casing, and the casing bolts directly to the outer end of the steering knuckle, It could hardly be easier. You might need a hand pressing the hub out of the bearing - if it comes out. Rave does not say it comes out, and may suggest the rotating hub flange comes with the bearing as a set.

Rave says
"The outer race of the hub bearing is bolted to the steering knuckle. The hub bearing is a sealed unit which contains twin opposed roller bearings, pre-packed with grease during manufacture. A toothed ABS sensor ring is integrated into the inner race of the hub bearing. An opening in the outer race of the hub bearing accommodates the ABS sensor."

So the bearing is a special thing for the TD5 axles, but you most certainly can change them, and 150 ft-lbs torque isn't as tight as all that.

These bearings are fundamentally NOT THE SAME as ordinary Landy Axles used to be, and you MUST tighten up the hub nut (drive shaft nut) good and tight just as the good book says. If you don't, the bearing will run slack and the whole lot will get wrecked in no time, and your brakes will fail when the disc starts wobbling.

Some of the advice you have been given does NOT relate to TD5 axles, and the big box socket thing is NOT required.

CharlesY

Edit, not sure if this is Defender or Disco though...

I have also turned up search results which suggest the non-abs TD5 defenders have wheel bearings the same as earlier models? So maybe this change (downgrade) was brought about by the need to make sure the ABS sensors always had a constant signal?

[wagoo]

Thanks John and Ben, or is it Basil?
I think the Landyzone description is for a Disco axle because the Defender ABS sensor and toothed ring is on the swivel housing and cv joint respectively,not in the hub.Might be the same principal of course.Either way I agree it sounds like a retrograde step from a remote area field servicability/ survivability perspective,although i did read somewhere that its possible to retrofit 300tdi hubs, bearings, twin locknuts and locktabs to the spindles.
Wagoo.

[PAT303]

The L322 series RR's are the same,the hub assembly is replaced as one unit.It's not a bad idea as an assembled hub could be carried and simply changed over if worst comes to worst,the bigger worry is if one of the bearings welds itself to the stub. Pat

[rick130]

Ben's description above is for the Disco.

I just booted up RAVE and it shows basically the same setup as for the Tdi except it uses the spacer between the bearings and a single stake nut ?

No removable shims mentioned at all Bill, maybe JC will chime in as I've never worked on anything later than a tdi either.

I'll try and copy the page tonight, it boots up in Acrobat 4 and I don't run any version of Acrobat anymore, I use Nitro PDF instead of the bloody resource hog Adobe.

[big harold]

Ben's description above is for the Disco.

I just booted up RAVE and it shows basically the same setup as for the Tdi except it uses the spacer between the bearings and a single stake nut ?

No removable shims mentioned at all Bill, maybe JC will chime in as I've never worked on anything later than a tdi either.

I'll try and copy the page tonight, it boots up in Acrobat 4 and I don't run any version of Acrobat anymore, I use Nitro PDF instead of the bloody resource hog Adobe.

Rick130
Bearing adjustment on a TD5 is measured using dial indicator from hub to stake nut. Setting is 0mm endfloat it is adjusted by changing spacer. Spacers are listed in manual at 0.1mm incriments also they are colour coded. 15.5mm to 14.9mm available. Not sure how you go if you end up with preload. My wheel bearings are due to be changed soon. I hope that the tolerances on bearings these days should allow the reuse of the spacer. Would only require spacer change if changing hubs?.
Mark

[Psimpson7]

You can swap back to the old type of adjustment by removing the spacer and getting the 2 nuts and tab washer I believe.

[wagoo]

Rick130
Bearing adjustment on a TD5 is measured using dial indicator from hub to stake nut. Setting is 0mm endfloat it is adjusted by changing spacer. Spacers are listed in manual at 0.1mm incriments also they are colour coded. 15.5mm to 14.9mm available. Not sure how you go if you end up with preload. My wheel bearings are due to be changed soon. I hope that the tolerances on bearings these days should allow the reuse of the spacer. Would only require spacer change if changing hubs?.
Mark

Sounds like the redesign was so assembly line staff or some dealership mechanics without a clue couldn't stuff things up to much, but isn't of much use for trackside maintenance unless one carries the tools to grind down the spacer.but at least they haven't changed the stub axle, so a pair of wheel bearings,the older style nuts, thrust washer, lock tab and hub seal should be carried in the tool box if venturing into remote areas.
wagoo.

[PAT303]

I don't really think there's any conspiricy involved,it's common for wheels bearings to lossen up with the double nut set-up but by having a spacer to lock up against makes that less of an issue. Pat

[wagoo]

I don't really think there's any conspiricy involved,it's common for wheels bearings to lossen up with the double nut set-up but by having a spacer to lock up against makes that less of an issue. Pat
Bearing wear is bearing wear regardless of the means of adjustment. Feild servicability is less important on Discos and RRs, but on a supposed working vehicles, more often used in remote undeveloped locations it is hardly a positive step.
Wagoo.

[PAT303]

LR's don't have a history of wheel bearing problems,the new design is easier to use but for me,like I said earlier it's the dumbarses that keep driving until the bearing welds to the stub thats the bigger issue. Pat

[rick130]

Rick130
Bearing adjustment on a TD5 is measured using dial indicator from hub to stake nut. Setting is 0mm endfloat it is adjusted by changing spacer. Spacers are listed in manual at 0.1mm incriments also they are colour coded. 15.5mm to 14.9mm available. Not sure how you go if you end up with preload. My wheel bearings are due to be changed soon. I hope that the tolerances on bearings these days should allow the reuse of the spacer. Would only require spacer change if changing hubs?.
Mark

Cheers, my RAVE copy doesn't show the different spacers.

[rick130]

Bearing wear is bearing wear regardless of the means of adjustment. Feild servicability is less important on Discos and RRs, but on a supposed working vehicles, more often used in remote undeveloped locations it is hardly a positive step.
Wagoo.

All the manufacturers seem to be going away from field serviceability Bill.

Nissan moved from the easily serviced GQ twin nut and bendable tab setup to the GU's single nut that you need a pin tool for and a locking ring that uses screws. :wacko:

OK, it's easy enough to make the pin tool, but there isn't enough screw positions on the locking ring so you often end up with either too much pre-load or a loose wheel bearing :(

[isuzurover]

Bearing wear is bearing wear regardless of the means of adjustment. Feild servicability is less important on Discos and RRs, but on a supposed working vehicles, more often used in remote undeveloped locations it is hardly a positive step.
Wagoo.

I suspect Land Rover would prefer if you didn't take your vehicle offroad, modify it in any way, and replaced it when the warranty runs out (if not sooner).

I bet it won't be long before the bonnet on landies (and other vehicles as well) is "sealed for life" with a sticker like this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/306.jpg

[wagoo]

All the manufacturers seem to be going away from field serviceability Bill.

Nissan moved from the easily serviced GQ twin nut and bendable tab setup to the GU's single nut that you need a pin tool for and a locking ring that uses screws. :wacko:

OK, it's easy enough to make the pin tool, but there isn't enough screw positions on the locking ring so you often end up with either too much pre-load or a loose wheel bearing :(

Rick,I have that style of adjustment system on my McNamara 1.5'' halfshaft upgrade spindles, and whilst it is a bit of a fiddle, the key on the washer is offset relative to the screw holes, and if you flip the washer you can usually get a reasonable adjustment.
I don't necessarily agree with Pat that LandRovers are not prone to wheel bearing issues. The heavy service bearings on Series vehicles had a thick depth of case hardening and could be adjusted virtually forever, but the case depth was much thinner on later bearings on vehicles beginning with the first Rangerovers .I've replaced many badly pitted wheel bearings over the years on later vehicles, and the more closely spaced bearings of even later vehicles tended to wear quicker again,according to the likes of Maxidrives Mal Story who often bemoaned the change to close spaced bearings.
Wagoo.

[PAT303]

Wagoo,the only damage I've seen on LR wheel bearings is from damaged seals,water ingress etc,I've never replaced a set that wore out and I've had and worked on some very old LR's. Pat

[rick130]

Rick,I have that style of adjustment system on my McNamara 1.5'' halfshaft upgrade spindles, and whilst it is a bit of a fiddle, the key on the washer is offset relative to the screw holes, and if you flip the washer you can usually get a reasonable adjustment.

[snip]
Wagoo.

That's how I thought it worked but didn't seem to in practice, at least for me. :(

[Loubrey]

I agree 100% with Pat303. My previous one got its first WB change at 121,000 miles (195,000km, 11 years old) and it was due to water ingress on perished seals. I replaced all 4 after the first one started squeeling and found rusty water in all of them mixed with the bearing grease (300Tdi, so "dry" axles) and they were still fine in terms of tolerances. Not even sure how long the water was in there!

Changing seals every few years should keep the bearings happy, even on the new setup.

[justinc]

The Td5 era onwards Defenders got the spacer in between the bearing inner races, and a stakeable locknut. IF you have a bearing failure and the inner race rotates, then the spacer could and most probably will be compromised in terms of thickness, the best way to overcome this problem is Psimpson7's comment about reverting to the early 2 locknut system and discarding the spacer and stake nut.

Have done many like this and is how they should've been from the factory IMO.

Never had any problems with the Tdi models and RRC's, if the bearing tolerances were excessive then most normal people would feel a soft brake pedal or during ROUTINE SERVICING ( something I see missed on a LOT of landies:mad:) the endfloat would be checked and rectified.

I'm not liking the 'set and forget' methods employed more and more these days, promotes laziness.

JC

[justinc]

Just another comment about the rear differential in the Puma (And 2003 on Defender) I believe they are way too light duty in the crownwheel and pinion area, With flexing of the thinner crownwheel under loads, and poor initial pinion preload (read excessive) from new was a problem with some. I think ANY drivetrain upgrade to these models can't be complete without changing out the rear diff for a salisbury Item. Even a Trutrac or ARB in a Rover Banjo diff (Like the earlier 90 has in the back) with upgraded axles will be a step forward from the P38a design IMO.

JC

[MTB]

Drover

When you are running the Achcroft flanges, can you still fit the Boost Alloys over the top, or do you have to run steel rims?

Frank

[newhue]

Hi guys,

is the consensus oil over grease to lube the wheel bearings.

Drover, is the oil seal you have pictured for the front diff the same for the rear? And where did you get it?

just had me a rush of blood at Ashcroft as well.

[Drover]

Drover

When you are running the Achcroft flanges, can you still fit the Boost Alloys over the top, or do you have to run steel rims?

Frank


Hey Frank,

I am just using the stock SVX alloys, not certain but I reckon that they would be the same as the standard alloys for the PUMA.

Looking at the Ashcroft Flanges, compared to the stockies, I don’t think that would stick out any further. Basically they are not much bigger, rather more solid.

All of the cast recesses have been removed and are machined from a single piece of alloy steel. The thickness is about the same as the bolts holes on the LR units

Cheers
Grant

[MTB]

Drover

I am going to follow suit and install some Ashcroft shafts, flanges and CV's in the next couple of weeks (need to find a 52mm socket first).
What is the story with grease when I put it all back together.
The new CV's seem to be nicely creased up, but do I need to add some more of this stuff ( Ashcroft Transmissions - CV Joint Grease (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=139) ) into the swivel housing or what?
I am a little lost here.

thanks
Frank

[Didge]

Looks good Drover,
Any chance of placing one of the old shafts next to a new one for comparison photo?

Are they doing a front locker as yet?

Regards,
PeterW
Hi Peter, I just had rear HD axles installed and took a photo of standard and HD next to each other and apart from the colour and the splines being a bit longer there is no other discernible difference. Diameter is the same (as you would expect) otherwise they wouldn't fit in the diff.
My mechanic (landy specialist) removed the old oil seals that separated the diff oil from the greased bearings so that with the new axles and flanges the bearings would be oiled, rather that greased. Apparently extends the life greatly.
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

Looks good Drover,
Any chance of placing one of the old shafts next to a new one for comparison photo?

Are they doing a front locker as yet?

Regards,
PeterW
Hi Peter, I just had HD axles installed and took a photo of standard and new and apart from the colour and the splines being a bit longer there is no other discernible difference. Diameter is the same (as you would expect) otherwise they wouldn't fit in the diff
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

Looks good Drover,
Any chance of placing one of the old shafts next to a new one for comparison photo?

Are they doing a front locker as yet?

Regards,
PeterW
Hi Peter, I just had HD axles installed and took a photo of standard and new and apart from the colour and the splines being a bit longer there is no other discernible difference. Diameter is the same (as you would expect) otherwise they wouldn't fit in the diff.
Mt land specialist mechanic also pulled out the old oil seals that separate the diff oil from the greased bearings on the standard axles so that the bearings would be oil lubricated; results I have heard is that the bearings will last a lot longer

cheers Gerald

[Bush65]

Hi Peter, I just had HD axles installed and took a photo of standard and new and apart from the colour and the splines being a bit longer there is no other discernible difference. Diameter is the same (as you would expect) otherwise they wouldn't fit in the diff.
Mt land specialist mechanic also pulled out the old oil seals that separate the diff oil from the greased bearings on the standard axles so that the bearings would be oil lubricated; results I have heard is that the bearings will last a lot longer

cheers Gerald
I hope he replaced the grease seals in the hubs with double lipped oil seals at the same time.