Seat belts in a Series 1, anyone done it?

[newhue]

For me part of the interest or greatness in a Series 1 is that it's like a car that breaks the rules, perhaps that could be LR in many ways. No locks, no seat belts, no ash tray, no roof, no lots of things, even wipers in some cases; all go into why a series is what it is. There is a freedom to it compared to todays complexities.

I don't mind driving without seat belts, but it has me thinking if I want to take the kids for a good drive, I should consider what options there are for seat belts.

Has anyone fitted lap sash type belts, discretely, if there is such a thing.
I assume over the sholder are out of the question as there is nothing to fix it to.:D

[JDNSW]

When I bought my Series 1 in 1962 it was already fitted with three point seat belts. The SMHEA fitted them to thousands of Series 1s from about 1952.

Fitting lap belts would be simple, but three point belts would require you to fit a roll bar or similar. In either case, I suspect engineering would be needed.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

John's correct about SMHEA fitting seat belts. They had a variety of designs including a lateral chest belt.

I have lap only belts in my Army SIII but it concerns me greatly not having a shoulder point (from a medical perspective). In the SII/SIII body type you can use the MRC7354 seat belt anchorage rail kit fitted to UK vehicles and you could likely adapt it to the s1. Essentially it is a rail in the front of the tub that has vertical elements that rise behind the seats and then extends across the vehicle and then back down the other side there are also stays that slope back into the tub. The inertia reel units sit behind the transom and the shoulder point is on the corner of the rail.

What ever you do don't put sideways facing seats in the tub for the kids. Recent accident research has proved beyond doubt that lateral seating risks significant, potentially fatal, spinal injuries from relatively minor incidents.

Diana

Your other option would be to use a 4 point harness with the shoulder anchorage to the rear of the tub.

[series1buff]

I recall reading of a series 1 being hit from behind in a nasty prang , on a UK freeway .. the driver survived unscathed because he had a roll over bar and seat belts fitted .

This is only heresay, but apparently, in NZ, lap only belts are not legal. Because:

There is debate on what is safer, no belts at all and being thrown out , or with lap belts only , you are sort of prone to being hurt more .

Years ago , about 1977 , I was on a Jeep outing with the MV club down here. A CJ2A in the group completely lost it's brakes on a long downhill , gravel, windy mountain road. It was the car immediately behind me and the timing could not have been worse . The Jeep passed me at a great speed , the two guys were hanging on for dear life as it sped around a LH corner out of my sight . I rounded the corner ..no Jeep in sight ..... they had run off the road into the steep bush on the RH side of the road. They hit a tree dead on centre . No seat belts ..they were both thrown over the bonnet , landed in bushes and scrub..not a scratch on them .

The reason was, a fractured rear pipe on the axle housing, it wasn't fixed to the housing properly and the vibrations fatigued the pipe .

Mike

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Statistically, what ever the mechanism of the crash, you have a better chance of survival or having less serious injuries, if you stay belted up within the vehicle.

That is not to say that in a vehicle without roll over protection, you won't be killed or seriously injured if restrained and there is a possibility you may have been better off being thrown, but that is only in a few exceptional cases.

[The ho har's]

Jason, Yes it can be done, lap easily, however 3 point yes you will need a fixing point:) and whichever way you go an engineering certificate:)

Mrs hh:angel:

[series1buff]

Statistically, what ever the mechanism of the crash, you have a better chance of survival or having less serious injuries, if you stay belted up within the vehicle.

That is not to say that in a vehicle without roll over protection, you won't be killed or seriously injured if restrained and there is a possibility you may have been better off being thrown, but that is only in a few exceptional cases.

In the case I witnessed, if they had seat belts on, the whiplash would have been horrific, more than likely they would have had broken necks or other serious injuries from the upper torso being banged into the dash etc. . But as you said , there isn't any rule that fits all situations.

[newhue]

Thanks all, who or what is SMHEA, got a lot to learn.
I'd actually be surprise if lap sash were allowed legally. I seem to recall somewhere that they anchor you torso enough only to allow it to be bounced around on the internals of the car.

How times change though, I recall driving from Brisbane to Carnarvan Gorge in the back of a Nissan G60 in the side seats. Shook the daylights out of us kids but did we have a ball.

[JDNSW]

...... . But as you said , there isn't any rule that fits all situations.

No, but statistics (initially compiled by the SMHEA mostly on Series 1 Landrovers!) clearly show that any sort of seat belt that keeps you restrained and in the vehicle is far safer in almost all cases (There are anecdotal cases where it appears to be safer not to have worn them, but these are very few compared to the cases where the dead bodies show that wearing them could not have been more dangerous - I heard all of these when wearing first became compulsory, at which time I had been wearing seat belts for more than a decade).

The SMHEA experience was that seat belt reduced fatalities from vehicle accidents to almost zero from several a week (from memory). And it is worth noting that this was with a variety of different belts, none of them retracting, and quite a few simple lap belts, and none with "approved" or "engineered" fitting, or even "approved" belts. The value of their figures was that by making it a firing offence to not wear the belt, and keeping good records, they were able to clearly show the value of seat belts for reducing deaths and injuries. It is no accident that compulsory fitting and wearing of seat belts was an Australian first.

John

[JDNSW]

Thanks all, who or what is SMHEA, got a lot to learn.
I'd actually be surprise if lap sash were allowed legally....... .

Snowy Mountains Hydro Electric Authority.

I think you mean lap belts not lap-sash, which is the normal three point type. I have not looked at any current cars, but certainly until very recently lap belts were the normal centre fitting on any three across seat (including the last Defender I looked at). I would be surprised if they were not legal, especially in an older vehicle where it is not possible to fit three point belts without major changes.

John

[newhue]

Snowy Mountains Hydro Electric Authority.

I think you mean lap belts not lap-sash, which is the normal three point type. I have not looked at any current cars, but certainly until very recently lap belts were the normal centre fitting on any three across seat (including the last Defender I looked at). I would be surprised if they were not legal, especially in an older vehicle where it is not possible to fit three point belts without major changes.

John

thanks John,
yes I am thinking lap belts, and good to hear they are probably legal.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks all, who or what is SMHEA, got a lot to learn.
I'd actually be surprise if lap sash were allowed legally. I seem to recall somewhere that they anchor you torso enough only to allow it to be bounced around on the internals of the car.
<snip> There are a number of problems with lap only belts, firstly they retain the torso just above the pelvis allowing the upper torso to hinge at the belt accelerating the head and shoulder in a downward arc with the drivers head usually hitting the rim of the steering wheel flexing the head backwards. (whiplash and potential broken neck and a serious frontal skull fracture). In other lap belted passengers the upper torso rotates down and the contents of the abdomen are squeezed up toward the heart and lungs. Risking tearing of the great blood vessels, tearing the liver and spleen, potentially rupturing the bowel and sometimes the abdominal contents including bowel end up in the thoracic cavity.

Very nasty injuries, but still not as bad as being ejected from a vehicle, through the windscreen and potentially run over by the vehicle you were once a passenger within.

[Scallops]

Personally, I like no seat belts. I like no door locks - I like everything about my Series 1. Wish mine had no indicators!

But hey, if it worries you, get them installed and the required certificate, otherwise enjoy as the 1950's intended.

But realise the Colonel will hassle you big time if you even allow wheel weights to be added! :p

[bobslandies]

The rationale for seat belt wearing in the days before crash padded dashes was that injuries would be less severe in most accidents. Minor collisions make up the majority of accidents and the reduction in serious and minor injuries was quite remarkable. Collisions at higher speeds generally cause greater deformation of the vehicle and seat belts will not generally save you if there is excessive deformation or sequential massive impacts.

As Diana has said travelling in inward facing seats is not a good idea.

Generally vehicles registered on some historic conditional registration (and I understand road registration) do not require seat belts to be fitted if they were not fitted originally.

Road Safety : Seatbelts & child restraints (http://www.dtei.sa.gov.au/roadsafety/Safer_behaviours/seatbelts)

There are now National Road Rules since June 2010 that make it an offence to CARRY a child under the age of seven years in ANY motor vehicle without complying with those new rules - and there are no exceptions other than buses that carry over twelve passengers.
See here:
New child restraint laws (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/children/childrestraints/index.html)
National child restraint laws effective 1 March 2010 - FAQs (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/children/childrestraints/childrestraintlaws_faqs.html)

Effectively this means that it is an offence to carry a child under the age of seven years without them being restrained in an approved restraining and protective device. Check your States position but this is a National initiative and over-rides the exemption for (historic) vehicles not fitted with seatbelts originally allowing the carriage of any child under seven!

Bob

[newhue]

Personally, I like no seat belts. I like no door locks - I like everything about my Series 1. Wish mine had no indicators!

But hey, if it worries you, get them installed and the required certificate, otherwise enjoy as the 1950's intended.

But realise the Colonel will hassle you big time if you even allow wheel weights to be added! :p

:eek: WHeel weeeiiiggghhttttssss

[newhue]

Thanks Bod, Diana for the info

I understand why our life's are so complicated and SAFE, just irritates me.

How do you tell the kids they will have to follow daddy in mummies car, or a ride in the back yard is as good as it gets.
I guess if the kids grow up to be box heads with drug addictions wondering where the old man is, at least the will be safe.

[JDNSW]

Humans are notoriously bad at risk assessment. There are two things to consider in any risk assessment - the probability of it occurring, and the impact of the event. How you balance these is a very difficult decision, and it is far too easy to look at a severe impact (such as death) and say anything that reduces the probability of it is worthwhile.

But in this case, the difference between lap and three point belts is an example of this, in the sense that the really big improvement came from any form of seat belt - certainly the three point belt increases the severity of the accident that can be survived, but there is, as far as I am aware, no data on exactly how many accidents fall into this range. I suggest that the number is quite small.

And to put the accident probability into perspective - I have been driving with seat belts for almost fifty years. During that period I have been involved in exactly one accident where wearing seat belts may have been a factor; I was uninjured - and this was in a Moke with lap only belts!

In summary, fitting (and wearing) any form of belt, including lap belts, is the really big improvement in safety. If you think that worrying about the extra safety of three point belts is something that we as a society should be concerned about consider this bit of hard data; drivers with a BAC above 0.05% are at least thirty times more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than the average driver (compare random tests with the tests on drivers in fatals). Does this suggest a factor vastly more important than whether you have a lap or three point belt?

John

[101RRS]

I put in a racing harness (no crotch belt) in my first series 1 in the 70s. The lap side went to bolt positions either side of the seat and the two shoulder belts went back to a position about half way back in the tub on the wheel arch. Worked well but was not all that practical in an everyday driver. This prompted me to put a roll bar in and put in three point inertia reel belts.

Garry

[numpty]

I had crappy old worn lap belts in Leon when I bought him and removed them for rego.

Yes it's a risk when I drive him, but I'm content. ;)

[bobslandies]

Hi All,

Here's some sobering crashes to look at and reconsider whether you need a seat belt. Open topped or hardtop just look at the way the occupants are thrown around or out:eek:

Vintage Race Car Crashes on Devour.com (http://devour.com/video/vintage-race-car-crashes/)

Bob

[wrinklearthur]

I put in a racing harness (no crotch belt) in my first series 1 in the 70s. The lap side went to bolt positions either side of the seat and the two shoulder belts went back to a position about half way back in the tub on the wheel arch. Worked well but was not all that practical in an everyday driver. This prompted me to put a roll bar in and put in three point inertia reel belts.

Garry
Hi All

I am on the lookout for a Series one 88", but SWMBO wants the new kitchen first! :(
So installing a roll bar with three point belts would look a bit strange in the area of the sink, so that belt project will have to wait for a while. :censored:

It's now time for a story from my more youthful days, about my 1955 86" series ones, which I had fitted lap seat belts.

Spotlighting wallabies one night, :rocket: we suddenly dropped, into a hidden underground hole caused by tunnel erosion.
The lights went out, the motor stalled with a crook battery and I couldn't use the crank handle as the nose of the Rover was deep in the ground.
The front axle broke the centre bolt on one side and the main leaf on the other, there we were, stuck in the middle of the night and it was pitch black, cold and windy .

The chap that was standing on top of the load of wallabies and rabbits holding the spot light, landed upside down somehow, ending face down with his head between the levers on the floor and his legs tangled up around the back of the seats, obviously he wasn't wearing a belt, but he wasn't hurt either.

Now, his mate was sitting in the passenger seat, he had come along for the ride to watch, this, his first time spotlighting, he was being the prudent one in wearing a belt and was feeling secure that it was to save him in the event of a prang.
His fears were realised, but the outcome for him was the worst, as the belt held his middle and the upper part of his torso shot forward.
His head just reached the dash nicely, and the metalwork which had already stopped moving at that stage, then in turn stopped the travel of his head. :Thump:
Have you ever heard of the expression knocked silly? [tonguewink]
Well, that was probably the best way to describe him, when we found him, after a match was struck to survey the situation.
His headache did come right after a few day's and after which, his black eyes became less noticeable also.

Back to me as the driver and the Rover.
My left knee had taken a hit but soon came right, but the poor Rover was stuck good and proper, so options were discussed between us two more alert members of the party and a plan was then formulated on how to travel home with our now, recently dizzied friend .

Under the load of carcasses was the fencing gear, amongst which I found an axe and the wire strainers.
This was to be another salvation on this bleak night, the first was the spot light, being now back in action, thanks to the small supply of matches from the chap from the back, he being the only smoker on this outing.

To start the Rover's motor was the first objective and as the starter was not working, the crank handle had to be used, this not going to be easily done as the hole for the crank was buried down about a foot in the soil.

So the axe was used as an improvised digging tool, hacking away at the bank over the bumper bar.
The wire strainers were set up on some fencing wire, to a suitable tree as to try and get the Rover back a bit to help the swing of the crank handle.
Time flies when you are having fun, eventually the Rover was started and with the improvised winch made from the wire strainers and fencing wire, we made it back out of the hole.
Repairs to Rover was done in short time, some fencing wire was twitched around the axle housing and the bumper.
We then made it back to the farm yard without any more issues and a nice hot Milo (but no! not the green one).

Cheers Arthur

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All,

Here's some sobering crashes to look at and reconsider whether you need a seat belt. Open topped or hardtop just look at the way the occupants are thrown around or out:eek:

Vintage Race Car Crashes on Devour.com (http://devour.com/video/vintage-race-car-crashes/)

Bob
Thanks Bob

Makes one appreciate advances in safety, it was those poor souls, having their mishaps, that brought on the changes.

Cheers Arthur

[bobslandies]

Hi All

It's now time for a story from my more youthful days, about my 1955 86" series ones, which I had fitted lap seat belts.

................read the original post.....................

Back to me as the driver and the Rover.
My left knee had taken a hit

Cheers Arthur

Often used to see Series metal dash vehicles with significant (ouch) damage to the lower edge of the parcel tray/glove box on the driver's side at the wreckers and on properties. Must have hurt the knees.

By the end of the Series production there was a padded finisher panel for that area across the lower dash available but I cannot remember them being readily available (would have bought one). Saw a few on imported vehicles however.

Bob