Busted Dyneema Rope on Tigerz11 Winch

[Gaudough]

Not specifically a D2 topic.

I have just this week fitted an ARB Deluxe Bullbar and Tigerz11 12,000lb winch with rope (not wire cable).

I have had a test of the winch in the backyard and have subsequently broken the rope. I am not a winching expert hence why I set up to test it out in the safety of the backyard but have read a lot about winching and understand the issues.

I attempted to pull a small palm tree (90mm dia) out of the ground as a test (rather than use the chainsaw). The rope as it was coming off the drum when pulling it out had a slightly flattened section to it so I assumed it had been tensioned onto the drum.

However I got to the point of having 1 full layer plus two turns left on the drum as the Disco started to get pulled up the yard with all 4 wheels locked and the palm tree bending but not coming out of the ground. I pretty much stalled the winch so I moved the attachment point up the palm tree and recommenced.
More bend on the palm tree then the winch kept going the tree stopped bending and the Disco stopped coming forward. A quick check shows the rope broken 5mm from the attachment lug on the drum and maybe 3 turns of the rope are slightly melted on the side that was against the drum.

Now a whole layer of rope plus a few turns on the second should be sufficient to stop the rope slipping. Remember I had already put a lot of load on it in the the first test.

And.... it seems the little screw that holds the lug into the winch drum is stronger than the rope.

What do I do, can I trust this rope. I will have to remove the slightly marked section of rope, say 3m, and get a new lug crimped on.

This rope is supposed to be about 8.5t or 17,000lbs breaking strain and I broke it with a 12000lb winch.

I will be contacting the company I got the winch from tomorrow to see what they say.

Anyone had any experience with this.

Regards Gordo

[Casper]

I have seen similar before with plasma rope and from that experience have 2 spools of rope on the drum as a minimum as the rope is not like cable which bites in to the drum, it can only tighten down on itself.

The damaged sections will definitely have to go as it can no longer be trusted to have the same breaking strain.

It is not necessarily a faulty rope or the crimped lug not being up to scratch but more than likely the torque which was on the lug was too much due to the rope not gripping on the drum.

On my last winch I used with plasma we coloured the last 2 wraps around the drum red and hung a small nylon flag at the start of the red just in case we couldn't see the colour to eliminate the chance of running the rope off the spool.

I have to say though, that palm tree really doesn't want to come out, but my suggestion is to get the rope as high into the tree as is possible, I have seen 6' wide gum tree's pulled down with a Tirfor winch like that so a 12,000lb electric winch shouldn't have a problem.

Cheers Casper

[Blknight.aus]

not so... (edit reply to gaugough not casper,)

when you've started winching if the bottom layer was "loose" when the top layer pulls into it the "loose" bottom layer allows the drum to rotate under the layer thats under tension.

when the connection starts to pull on the rope it tightens up the bottom layer abit, if you're lucky it pulls enough in to start the winching process if not it pulls up some turns and then pulls the eyelet off. If this happens you wind up with the drum turning inside the slightly tighter windings and it burns the rope.

theres a few fixes.

The easiest is to unwind the rope all the way and neatly layer it back on EVERY time you winch with the rope. Not much fun But it guarantees that you will get a long life on the rope.

I dont usually attache the plasma ropes with an eyelet instead I tie them on with a round turn, 2 half hitches, a locking half hitch which I carefully cinch up and the apply a short western whip to the end of the half hitch and then again on the free end to keep it neat.. a bit harder to do and it can develop the same problem if the knot works loose or you loose tension on the rope during the unwind and the winch over runs.

It also helps to paint the drum with some rubber paint, liquid electrical tape OR grip tape.

[Tank]

It never ceases to amaze me why people buy rope/cable based on their breaking point and then work it to that limit and then whinge when it breaks. The Safe Working Load (SWL or Working Load Limit, WLL) of an 8.5T rope is only 1.7T. If you go to buy a recovery product that one day your life may depend on for Christ sake take some time and research the product. If a product, like a winch rope, does NOT have a SWL or WLL stamped on or tagged Don't buy it, if the seller doesn't know the SWL walk out and go to someone that does, like a Rigger supply shop.
Now a winch rated at 12,000lb should have a cable or rope with a SWL of 12,000lbs. but it won't because the cable will not physically fit onto the winch drum (because it's too thick), so a 12000lb winch should have a cable with a SWL or WLL of 2400lbs. which is usually too small for the job so the seller of the winch advertises the breaking strain (Guaranteed Breaking Strain GBS), the seller doesn't give a **** if you break the cable and maybe injure or kill some poor innocent bystander, he just want's the goods out the door.
SWL and WLL is based on a Safety Factor (SF) which is around 5 for a winch cable (10 for a lift that carries people) so you divide the known and tested GBS by the SF appropriate for the use and you come up with the SWL or WLL. Because from the first use (and abuse) the cable/rope detiorates and gets worse with age, the SF gives you a margin of safe use, if you go over that limit then let's hope that the only person injured is the idiot doing it. If anyone intends using a winch, please go and get "A Guide for Riggers" from the Library or see if you can download it, Regards Frank.

[Gaudough]

It never ceases to amaze me why people buy rope/cable based on their breaking point and then work it to that limit and then whinge when it breaks. The Safe Working Load (SWL or Working Load Limit, WLL) of an 8.5T rope is only 1.7T. If you go to buy a recovery product that one day your life may depend on for Christ sake take some time and research the product. If a product, like a winch rope, does NOT have a SWL or WLL stamped on or tagged Don't buy it, if the seller doesn't know the SWL walk out and go to someone that does, like a Rigger supply shop.
Now a winch rated at 12,000lb should have a cable or rope with a SWL of 12,000lbs. but it won't because the cable will not physically fit onto the winch drum (because it's too thick), so a 12000lb winch should have a cable with a SWL or WLL of 2400lbs. which is usually too small for the job so the seller of the winch advertises the breaking strain (Guaranteed Breaking Strain GBS), the seller doesn't give a **** if you break the cable and maybe injure or kill some poor innocent bystander, he just want's the goods out the door.
SWL and WLL is based on a Safety Factor (SF) which is around 5 for a winch cable (10 for a lift that carries people) so you divide the known and tested GBS by the SF appropriate for the use and you come up with the SWL or WLL. Because from the first use (and abuse) the cable/rope detiorates and gets worse with age, the SF gives you a margin of safe use, if you go over that limit then let's hope that the only person injured is the idiot doing it. If anyone intends using a winch, please go and get "A Guide for Riggers" from the Library or see if you can download it, Regards Frank.


Thats an informative answer Frank, Thanks.

Now it is starting to make sense why the steel winch cables snap when I would have thought they would only break due to abuse etc.

Gordo

[101RRS]

Frank - I appreciate your experience in rigging but right or wrong the same rules to not apply with 4wd recovery gear, the rating is usually the minimum failure rating so a 12,000LB cable may fail at 12,000LB - if you put a cable of 12,000LB SWL on a vehicle winch it would never fit. Likewise the winch itself is rated at 12,000LB - not SWL but the minimum failure load. So following rigging rules we actually need winches about 3 times bigger than we currently use.

I actually think that the 17,000LB rope used is a good match to the 12,000LB winch - irrespective of swls or min breaking points etc the rope in theory is stronger than the winch so with correct use should have been OK.

Garry

[Blknight.aus]

theres a reason why I have a 5t tirfor and always use a snatch block....

my 5t Tirfor IS 5t pull. (or 2.3t vertical lift) for the bits that are tirfor what it says on the lid IS the safe working limit not the WLL or GBS.

sure my tifors not as easy as a winch but Its never been stopped yet 10T of pull on most 4x4's is enough to start seperating vehicle parts (or get it out of the hole)

theres a whole medly of reasons to use a snatch block whenever you winch my favorite is that it puts less strain on the expensive parts of your gear which means they last longer.

[Tank]

Frank - I appreciate your experience in rigging but right or wrong the same rules to not apply with 4wd recovery gear, the rating is usually the minimum failure rating so a 12,000LB cable may fail at 12,000LB - if you put a cable of 12,000LB SWL on a vehicle winch it would never fit. Likewise the winch itself is rated at 12,000LB - not SWL but the minimum failure load. So following rigging rules we actually need winches about 3 times bigger than we currently use.

I actually think that the 17,000LB rope used is a good match to the 12,000LB winch - irrespective of swls or min breaking points etc the rope in theory is stronger than the winch so with correct use should have been OK.

Garry
Garry, first a winch can only be rated to the SWL of the cable, but in 4WD recovery situations (which is basically no different to everyday rigging and the same laws of physics apply). If you look at any commercial crane it will have the SWL or WLL clearly posted on the crane jib (usually), a 10T crane does not have 10T GBS wire rigged on it, the crane is rated at the SWL of the wire rope used, not what the manufacturer says the winch is rated at. The winch would be rated much higher than the GBS of the rope on a crane. 4WD winches should be rated for all our safety sakes at the SWL of the rope/cable, the weakest point is at the GBS of the rope/cable.
My point being that if as the law applies to all other lifting/hauling gear why doesn't it apply to 4WD applications, there would be less accidents.
I say call a spade a spade, put the SWL on the winch (with appropriate wire/rope) and work to that level, in the 20+ years as a rigger on sites all over Australia I have never seen a sling/winch cable break because of overloading, in 4WD'ing it is an expected regular occurrence.
I agree the Rope is stronger, BUT it will not keep it's integrity once it has been abused, esp. if the fibres are full of grit, another good reason to know the SWL/WLL and work to it and not above on the other hand wire cables worst enemy is the snatch block, the readily available blocks are too small in diameter and they will break wires and cause kinking.
11mm to 12mm wire rope is about right for most 4WD applications, 10mm 7 strand gal. wire rope is good for about 1100 to 1200 kgs SWL and should not be a problem if you stick close to the SWL, hope this helps mate, Regards Frank.

[isuzurover]

Garry, first a winch can only be rated to the SWL of the cable, but in 4WD recovery situations (which is basically no different to everyday rigging and the same laws of physics apply). If you look at any commercial crane it will have the SWL or WLL clearly posted on the crane jib (usually), a 10T crane does not have 10T GBS wire rigged on it, the crane is rated at the SWL of the wire rope used, not what the manufacturer says the winch is rated at. The winch would be rated much higher than the GBS of the rope on a crane. 4WD winches should be rated for all our safety sakes at the SWL of the rope/cable, the weakest point is at the GBS of the rope/cable.
My point being that if as the law applies to all other lifting/hauling gear why doesn't it apply to 4WD applications, there would be less accidents.
I say call a spade a spade, put the SWL on the winch (with appropriate wire/rope) and work to that level, in the 20+ years as a rigger on sites all over Australia I have never seen a sling/winch cable break because of overloading, in 4WD'ing it is an expected regular occurrence.
I agree the Rope is stronger, BUT it will not keep it's integrity once it has been abused, esp. if the fibres are full of grit, another good reason to know the SWL/WLL and work to it and not above on the other hand wire cables worst enemy is the snatch block, the readily available blocks are too small in diameter and they will break wires and cause kinking.
11mm to 12mm wire rope is about right for most 4WD applications, 10mm 7 strand gal. wire rope is good for about 1100 to 1200 kgs SWL and should not be a problem if you stick close to the SWL, hope this helps mate, Regards Frank.

I tend to agree Frank, however IME most incidents in 4x4 recovery are caused by:

Poorly made or rusty recovery points.
Tow balls
The use of low grade or ungraded/unrated bolts and shackles
Worn or damaged straps/ropes/cables

On top of that, in lifting it is very easy to calculate what your load is, as it is simply the mass you are lifting. Most 4x4ers wouldn't be able to calculate the load they are pulling/recovering, as it is largely unrelated to the mass of any of the vehicles involved.

[Blknight.aus]

Garry, first a winch can only be rated to the SWL of the cable, but in 4WD recovery situations (which is basically no different to everyday rigging and the same laws of physics apply). If you look at any commercial crane it will have the SWL or WLL clearly posted on the crane jib (usually), a 10T crane does not have 10T GBS wire rigged on it, the crane is rated at the SWL of the wire rope used, not what the manufacturer says the winch is rated at. The winch would be rated much higher than the GBS of the rope on a crane. 4WD winches should be rated for all our safety sakes at the SWL of the rope/cable, the weakest point is at the GBS of the rope/cable.
My point being that if as the law applies to all other lifting/hauling gear why doesn't it apply to 4WD applications, there would be less accidents.
I say call a spade a spade, put the SWL on the winch (with appropriate wire/rope) and work to that level, in the 20+ years as a rigger on sites all over Australia I have never seen a sling/winch cable break because of overloading, in 4WD'ing it is an expected regular occurrence.
I agree the Rope is stronger, BUT it will not keep it's integrity once it has been abused, esp. if the fibres are full of grit, another good reason to know the SWL/WLL and work to it and not above on the other hand wire cables worst enemy is the snatch block, the readily available blocks are too small in diameter and they will break wires and cause kinking.
11mm to 12mm wire rope is about right for most 4WD applications, 10mm 7 strand gal. wire rope is good for about 1100 to 1200 kgs SWL and should not be a problem if you stick close to the SWL, hope this helps mate, Regards Frank.

close but no...

a cranes winch is rated to less than the MBS of the rope the crane itself is rated to the lower SWL of the Boom OR the reeving of the cable. Hypothetically its not possible to break the cable on a crane using the power of the winch alone, the cable must be damaged OR you have to jib up and overload the cable that way.


for example a 10t Crane might only have a 1t cable (wll) on it the winch would likely be rated to a 950KG pull and probably something like 1500KG hold. To lift 10T the cable would be reeved 11 times BUT.... The SWL is also dependant on the position and configuration of the cranes boom.


for Isuzu rover....

most snatch blocks Ive ever seen that have a SWL on them the diameter of the pully is larger than the diameter of the drum on an electrc winch. and most of them are larger than the minimum 10x diameter required for a standard SWR.

[Tank]

Dave the point I am making is, a winch (4WD) or a crane should be rated by it's SWL, not at the GBS of the wire or rope, i.e. if you had a winch capable of working at a load of 100T, but only rigged it with "string" (say GBS 10kg./ SWL 2kg.) then the SWL of that winch is detrmined by the "string".
Multiple runs over many sheaves/pulleys is used to reduce the size of the cable used, but you must take into consideration the amount of friction caused by passing over so many pulleys. In theory it is possible to lift enormous weights with very thin wire cable, but it comes to a point where friction overcomes any mechanical advantage gained.
Isuzurover
Quote: "On top of that, in lifting it is very easy to calculate what your load is, as it is simply the mass you are lifting. Most 4x4ers wouldn't be able to calculate the load they are pulling/recovering, as it is largely unrelated to the mass of any of the vehicles involved."
You certainly make rigging look easy mate, there is NO difference in using rigging gear to recover a bogged vehicle or drag a 100t piece of machinery many metres into place. The same rules apply and the same equipment is used. You are correct about inferior or incorrect gear being used causing accidents, how many recovery points do you see with the shackle pin hole in the horizontal axis instead of the vertical axis, shackles are NOT designed to have side loads, they are designed to be used in the direction of pull, not dragged sideways in a horizontal axis, jamming the pin and bending the body. I saw a pic in a 4WD mag the other day with 2 snatch straps joined with a shackle (bad enough), but this one had the loops on the straps on either sides of the shackle, doing it's best to pop the pin and straighten the shackle body.
There seems to be a lot of misinformation regarding recovery vs. lifting, I suggest if you want the facts, get a copy of "A Guide for Riggers", it is a real eye opener, Regards Frank.

[clubagreenie]

This is interesting as only today I went through a selection process for a new rope for my Tigerz winch (also 12000lb). Firstly, the people I dealt with, and that I have dealt with for 20+ years and who have been manufacturing rigging/lifting/towing gear for a lot longer than that. The rope on the Tigerz doesn't match any sample they had of a Dyneema or plasma rope. The braiding process looks like a multibraid but the material mostly matches in appearance and feel polypropylene. Also noted by them was that anything rated for lifting could be used for pulling/dragging at a rating of 1.5times.

We pulled a spool of Donaghys M10 Ocean12 dyneema multibraid as well as 12HS (high tensile version). The material is markedly different in both appearance and feel. The std version is rated at 10.7t breaking load with 5:1 margin, the HT version (in 11mm) is rated at 16.8t at same margin. Interestingly while plasma is lighter it's also not rated as highly as the O.12 dyneema multbraid.

Also to note that both the manufacturers of the Donaghys rope, the Tigerz dealer and the rope supplier I was at today all said NOT to layer any synthetic rope onto the drum as you would a wire rope. I hook the end onto the peg and lay a cable tie under the first 4 layers and tie it. This stops the rope pulling more than the min 4 layers off the drum on free spool. Then wind the rope on under some weight (just by hand) leaving a rope diameter gap between each wind. At the end of the first layer run back across in the same manner then repeat as for the first layer except laying the rope into the grove created by the space left by the first run.

In all it's use so far, never had the rope move. Doesn't appear like it's damaged and I've always removed it completely and put through the washing machine after each weekend to wash out the braid. I'm only looking as I have 2 high mounts to respool plus update the Tigerz, the Donaghys is available by the meter at a spool price and around $5-/m less than plasma and on their abrasion resistance chart for non steel ropes is rated high for resistance.

[Tank]

I am considering Dyneema rope for my winch, I am going to buy about 10m of 1" (25mm) lay-flat water hose, the type used by firefighters and feed it onto the rope for protection from scuffing on rocky ground. I'm wondering how it would go on the first layer on the drum, it may act as a surface to grip the drum and protect a bit from the heat, Regards Frank.

[isuzurover]

You certainly make rigging look easy mate, there is NO difference in using rigging gear to recover a bogged vehicle or drag a 100t piece of machinery many metres into place. The same rules apply and the same equipment is used.

Frank - you are twising my words. I said Lifting. The forces involved in Lifting can be calculated accurately by anyone who knows basic (high school) physics - at most. For the simplest case of a vertical lift using a single rope/cable and no snatch block, then the force on the rope if the weight of the object(+rope and rigging) being lifted. I don't doubt that the practical side of rigging can get very complex - however I am sure that riggers would then resort to empirical tables to calculate forces???

I would bet that even experienced riggers would only be able to hazard a ballpark guess at the load required to pull (not lift) a heavily bogged 4x4 from a mudhole.

[Blknight.aus]

actually they can and do....

the defence calls them reccy mechs,

advanced rigging includes doing lateral pulls and calculating out drag resistances.

most riggers dont use a table but they use a bunch of formulas and look ups, Most of these are on a ready reckoner simply pick out the appropriate formulas, key in the numbers from the look up and then push the buttons on the calculator.

for doing ground work the same numbers apply they're just laid over on their side and some of the safety numbers reduce..

[isuzurover]

actually they can and do....

the defence calls them reccy mechs,

advanced rigging includes doing lateral pulls and calculating out drag resistances.

most riggers dont use a table but they use a bunch of formulas and look ups, Most of these are on a ready reckoner simply pick out the appropriate formulas, key in the numbers from the look up and then push the buttons on the calculator.

for doing ground work the same numbers apply they're just laid over on their side and some of the safety numbers reduce..

Fair enough, but that is fairly specialised. I was talking about the average rigger who would work somewhere like a crane (wet) hire company.

[Gaudough]

This is interesting as only today I went through a selection process for a new rope for my Tigerz winch (also 12000lb). Firstly, the people I dealt with, and that I have dealt with for 20+ years and who have been manufacturing rigging/lifting/towing gear for a lot longer than that. The rope on the Tigerz doesn't match any sample they had of a Dyneema or plasma rope. The braiding process looks like a multibraid but the material mostly matches in appearance and feel polypropylene. Also noted by them was that anything rated for lifting could be used for pulling/dragging at a rating of 1.5times.

We pulled a spool of Donaghys M10 Ocean12 dyneema multibraid as well as 12HS (high tensile version). The material is markedly different in both appearance and feel. The std version is rated at 10.7t breaking load with 5:1 margin, the HT version (in 11mm) is rated at 16.8t at same margin. Interestingly while plasma is lighter it's also not rated as highly as the O.12 dyneema multbraid.

Also to note that both the manufacturers of the Donaghys rope, the Tigerz dealer and the rope supplier I was at today all said NOT to layer any synthetic rope onto the drum as you would a wire rope. I hook the end onto the peg and lay a cable tie under the first 4 layers and tie it. This stops the rope pulling more than the min 4 layers off the drum on free spool. Then wind the rope on under some weight (just by hand) leaving a rope diameter gap between each wind. At the end of the first layer run back across in the same manner then repeat as for the first layer except laying the rope into the grove created by the space left by the first run.

In all it's use so far, never had the rope move. Doesn't appear like it's damaged and I've always removed it completely and put through the washing machine after each weekend to wash out the braid. I'm only looking as I have 2 high mounts to respool plus update the Tigerz, the Donaghys is available by the meter at a spool price and around $5-/m less than plasma and on their abrasion resistance chart for non steel ropes is rated high for resistance.

Similar thoughts here, is the rope the genuine stuff. I am considering going to a rope and sling supplier that specilaises in this sort of thing to get there opinion of what to do. Most likely I will buy a guaranteed rope from someone that knows a bit about it.

Gordo.

P.S thanks for all the replies, an interesting topic.

[clubagreenie]

Thats why I went where I did, LB wire ropes at Girraween NSW.

Tank: If your winch has the brake inside the drum synthetic rope IS NOT recommended at all due to the heat. The two I know of that can be used are the Tigerz and Warn hi mounts. I also asked about replacing the cheesy plastic "protector"over the hook end of the rope. I was thinking of using a cable stocking, which is a loose braided 3/32 wire sleeve that is used for pulling cables through conduits. All they recommend was using some old garden hose

Another interesting thing I've seen is that most of the ebay ads list the ropes as Syntehtic/Plasma/Dyneema all in one where plasma and dyneema are from what I've been told definately different materials.

[Tank]

Quote: For the simplest case of a vertical lift using a single rope/cable and no snatch block, then the force on the rope is the weight of the object(+rope and rigging) being lifted.
Isuzurover you're not getting the gist of what I'm saying for instance lets say I want to lift a square sided box that weighed 1Tonne by putting a single sling under the load, in the centre of lift and then reeve one eye of the sling through the other with one eye on the hook. What size sling (SWL) would I need to lift this load.
It would require at least a 2Tonne SWL sling, because the load is square ( the cable having to bend around a 90 degree corner diminishes it's load capacity) and one eye is reeved through the other, same scenario but lifting a round pipe is different again.
An example lets say we are in a large factory and I have to lift a load of one tonne (with chain block and flying fox type pulley) and move it to the other side of the building, the building is 60' wide and about the same in height. I would have to use a span rope tied off to ground anchors and resting above on structural beams running full length of factory and the span rope stretched across the factory. As a rigger I would have to work out the stresses involved and what size SWL rope will be needed. In this scenario with the minimum sag in the span rope (20% of span) I would need a swl wire cable capable of supporting 60Tonnes, this was unacceptable because it would have pulled the structural beams that the rope was over down and destroyed the building, by modifying the sag (increasing it) I could get the load on the span rope down to 10tonne, mind you this is only lifting a load of 1tonne.
As far as calculating the weight of a load that is being dragged, most big jobs have an engineer to work that out, that example of sag in a span rope is the same principle as using a snatch block (or a short bridle)at an angle to the line of pull, once the angle of the cable thru the block reaches 90 degrees the load doubles, over 90 degrees and you will need a formula and a calculator, so a simple lift still requires knowledge to do it safely, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

Thats why I went where I did, LB wire ropes at Girraween NSW.

Tank: If your winch has the brake inside the drum synthetic rope IS NOT recommended at all due to the heat. The two I know of that can be used are the Tigerz and Warn hi mounts. I also asked about replacing the cheesy plastic "protector"over the hook end of the rope. I was thinking of using a cable stocking, which is a loose braided 3/32 wire sleeve that is used for pulling cables through conduits. All they recommend was using some old garden hose

Another interesting thing I've seen is that most of the ebay ads list the ropes as Syntehtic/Plasma/Dyneema all in one where plasma and dyneema are from what I've been told definately different materials.
Thanks for that, my winch has an internal brake so might have to reconsider, Regards Frank.

[steveG]

Thanks for that, my winch has an internal brake so might have to reconsider, Regards Frank.

From what I can find out the internally braked winches only get hot if the winch is powered out against the brake. Yes, its a limitation compared to an external brake, but there are a lot of people happily using synthetic rope on internally braked winches without any issues.

FWIW - this is quite an interesting article on the difference between Plasma and Dyneema - especially the sections on different fibre sizes and there effect on abrasion resistance, and the reference to Dyneema suffering crush fatigue on the drum. The company is only selling plasma so it could be a bit biased though ...
Plasma Vs Dyneema - PlasmaRope.com.au - Fibre winch ropes and extension kits (http://www.plasmarope.com.au/plasma-vs-dyneema.html)

Steve

[clubagreenie]

Can we recheck the link pleae, can't make work. Wait, found (http://www.plasmarope.com.au/plasma-vs-dyneema.html).

The resistance to crushing as a benefit is it's downfall when it comes to the rope grip on the drum. I've seen natural rope catch on fire during slip tests and synthetics melt.

[disco2hse]

However I got to the point of having 1 full layer plus two turns left on the drum as the Disco started to get pulled up the yard with all 4 wheels locked and the palm tree bending but not coming out of the ground. I pretty much stalled the winch so I moved the attachment point up the palm tree and recommenced.

More bend on the palm tree then the winch kept going the tree stopped bending and the Disco stopped coming forward. A quick check shows the rope broken 5mm from the attachment lug on the drum and maybe 3 turns of the rope are slightly melted on the side that was against the drum.

Now a whole layer of rope plus a few turns on the second should be sufficient to stop the rope slipping. Remember I had already put a lot of load on it in the the first test.

And.... it seems the little screw that holds the lug into the winch drum is stronger than the rope.

What do I do, can I trust this rope. I will have to remove the slightly marked section of rope, say 3m, and get a new lug crimped on.

This rope is supposed to be about 8.5t or 17,000lbs breaking strain and I broke it with a 12000lb winch.

Phew, when you guys get into detail... :wacko:

Anyway, back to the OP.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that palm trees are right buggers to pull out of the ground unless you do it properly.

I would certainly whack the damaged portion of line off and do whatever you want to attach a new eyelet, assuming you want a new eyelet. I would also take some time to learn about safe practices whilst using a winch, and how t use a snatch block.

You can trust the line. You might not want to trust whoever put that first eyelet on because it sounds, from your description, that they have previously damaged the line when they crimped the eyelet.

Personally I would not crimp anything onto a synthetic multi-strand line (braid, or whatever). If anything I would either tape up the end or splice it.

Alan

[clubagreenie]

Back to the palm, I cut one 11 years ago and only this year could pull it, with my 12000 and my dads high mount and still had to cut some of the root ball away.

There seems to be two recommended materials to use for 4WD winching apps, HMPE (High Molecular Weight Polyethylene) & LCP (Liquid Crystal Polymer). LCP's are about 40-50% dearer than HMPE's so they're out unless you like to fore apprentices weekly. From what I can see in the comparison article plasma is made of it's raw product, spectra. The other, Dyneema (aka Dynamica).

The Spectra, is made into plasma(seems to be a patented name/process by Puget Sound Ropes) using a proprietary methods by only one company by the look of it. Other materials made from Spectra exist but are not technically plasma as the Spectra to Plasma method is different.

The biggest difference between Plasma and Dyneema is the size of the individual filaments. Plasma's are larger and so more resistant to abrasion (both internal & external), flex fatigue and fatigue caused by rolling over sheaves such as a snatch block. The rate of degradation seems to be almost 300% grater for Dyneema than Plasma. Drum storage fatigue is approximately 30% faster for Dyneema, although this was tested on a marine drum winch which was outdoors and subject to more weathering than a rope on a 4WD winch may see.

As a comparison fibre core steel rope is never used (well should never) in marine or wet applications as when the core gets wet it starts the rusting from the inside out and you wont seen it until it's too late. Even if well oiled when new the repeated winding/tensioning process will compress the oil out of the fiber core and reabsorb the moisture. So steel wire core cable is preferred, however it has a larger preferred storage drum radius to prevent premature fatigue of the core wire.

Note: All this was taken and compiled from a variety of sources, both web and book plus information from technical/sales at two different rope suppliers.

[LowRanger]

Phew, when you guys get into detail... :wacko:

Anyway, back to the OP.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that palm trees are right buggers to pull out of the ground unless you do it properly.

I would certainly whack the damaged portion of line off and do whatever you want to attach a new eyelet, assuming you want a new eyelet. I would also take some time to learn about safe practices whilst using a winch, and how t use a snatch block.

You can trust the line. You might not want to trust whoever put that first eyelet on because it sounds, from your description, that they have previously damaged the line when they crimped the eyelet.

Personally I would not crimp anything onto a synthetic multi-strand line (braid, or whatever). If anything I would either tape up the end or splice it.

Alan

Crimping the eyelet to the end of the rope is perfectly fine,as the eyelet has no load bearing.It is used to hold the end of the rope in a fixed position so that it can be wound on the drum only.
With my 12000lb TDS winch,I have used it many times with the original fitment rope,and it is still going strong.But I am careful when using it,and try and lay something between the rope and anything I think it may chafe on.I also wash the rope after every use,but I don't use the washing machine:eek:as I value my teeth,and my rope has a metal thimble in the end where it attaches to the recovery hook.I think that the thimble is very important,as it gives an even radius attachment to the hook,which helps spread the load evenly and helps to stop the rope from kinking.Most of the winch ropes I see for sale here don't come with a thimble at all,just a braided loop at the end of the rope.I also have a new winch rope that I carry for emergencies.It is known as Amsteel Blue Dyneema rope,although mine is green.When it arrived,the first thing I noticed was how different it felt and looked to the rope that came on the winch.It is used by a lot of the competition vehicles in the U.S. where it has a fantastic record.And it is available for a very good price compared to what you buy here.I also have a length of the same material as a winch extension rope,with a thimble at both ends.It certainly beats a winch extension strap,as it is much easier to handle,weighs less and takes up a lot less room in the recovery box,and the price was excellent.

Wayne

[clubagreenie]

According to the people who do this stuff crimping is fine as long as:

For the end that had the drum retainer clip thing (they use battery cable terminals and file) leave 10-15mm out the end.

IF, and you can but it's not the preferred option you want to swage it, tape under the area where the swage will be.

And they said they should always have a hard eye (thimble) in them whether spliced or swaged, but having said that a soft eye is useful for joining them together by passing each rope through the others eye.

[Gaudough]

Crimping the eyelet to the end of the rope is perfectly fine,as the eyelet has no load bearing.It is used to hold the end of the rope in a fixed position so that it can be wound on the drum only.
With my 12000lb TDS winch,I have used it many times with the original fitment rope,and it is still going strong.But I am careful when using it,and try and lay something between the rope and anything I think it may chafe on.I also wash the rope after every use,but I don't use the washing machine:eek:as I value my teeth,and my rope has a metal thimble in the end where it attaches to the recovery hook.I think that the thimble is very important,as it gives an even radius attachment to the hook,which helps spread the load evenly and helps to stop the rope from kinking.Most of the winch ropes I see for sale here don't come with a thimble at all,just a braided loop at the end of the rope.I also have a new winch rope that I carry for emergencies.It is known as Amsteel Blue Dyneema rope,although mine is green.When it arrived,the first thing I noticed was how different it felt and looked to the rope that came on the winch.It is used by a lot of the competition vehicles in the U.S. where it has a fantastic record.And it is available for a very good price compared to what you buy here.I also have a length of the same material as a winch extension rope,with a thimble at both ends.It certainly beats a winch extension strap,as it is much easier to handle,weighs less and takes up a lot less room in the recovery box,and the price was excellent.

Wayne


Ok I wasnt sure about the use of the crimped end, but it makes sense that it is not there to prevent the rope slipping on the drum but just hold it when spooling on the rope.

Question is how many turns would people regard as a minimum to leave on the drum to prevent it slipping under load.

And the palm tree was tough to get out. I cut through the trunk most of the way but couldnt get the last bit as it was in the dirt. Took a big crowbar and a lot of grunt to get it out.

Gordo

[LowRanger]

Have a bit of a look here
OKoffroad - 4x4 Recovery Gear - News 'N Views - 4x4 Accessories (http://www.okoffroad.com/)
Go to the section on winch rope.There is a write up on the fitting of rope to the drum,also on the crimped end.And they also make a winch rope retainer,which is a webbing strap made to retain at least 4 turns of rope on the drum,and alleviate any pressure on the retaining screw in the drum.
They are also great to deal with.

Wayne

[Blknight.aus]

Fair enough, but that is fairly specialised. I was talking about the average rigger who would work somewhere like a crane (wet) hire company.

then you mean a dogger, but we're getting into semantics now....

the reason I tie the dynamic (the generic term I use for any of the nylon looking type) ropes onto the drum is simple, IF youve got it down near the end, it takes a load for some reason the tension comes off (the vehicle your recovering gains some traction) but then comes back on you can wind up with the rope unspooling even though you are still winding in. If the rope is tied on providing you dont exceed the limit of the rope when you hit the end of the run the round turn and 2 half hitches will hold the load, an eye crimp wont.

IMHO 8 turns is the minimum safe number of turns to have on the drum and they must be neat and tight, While it breaks all the regs While you put the inital load on your winch pull the rope out by hand (gloves on) and maintain a firm pull on the rope while you winch it in. Once the rope starts to take tension from whatever you're trying to recover take one last look at your setup and then back away your minimum safety distance (1.5x the longest exposed run of rope from ANY point of the recovery)

[Tank]

Quote: "As a comparison fibre core steel rope is never used (well should never) in marine or wet applications as when the core gets wet it starts the rusting from the inside out and you wont seen it until it's too late. Even if well oiled when new the repeated winding/tensioning process will compress the oil out of the fiber core and reabsorb the moisture. So steel wire core cable is preferred, however it has a larger preferred storage drum radius to prevent premature fatigue of the core wire."

A Fibre core in the middle of a 6 strand wire rope is there to lubricate the wires, it is soaked in a penetrating lubricant at build time and can be re-lubricated by soaking in said lubricant, I used to use half a 44 with some diesel and clean waste oil.
6 strand fibre core wire rope should never be used on a winch or run over sheaves as it will crush flat and be damaged.
Winch (and Tirfors) wire rope has a wire core, as in 7 strand wire cable found on most winch drums, the centre wire core prevents the wire cable from sqashing flat on the winch drum or when running over a sheave/pulley as in a snatch block, unless the groove in the pulley is too wide, if the grove in the pulley is too narrow it will crush and damage the cable. Too small a dia. pulley in a snatch block will also damage a wire cable, the outside of the cable gets stretched and the inside gets compressed, this eventually leads to the failure of the cable, so if possible buy the largest size pulley (snatch block) practible, with the correct size groove for your wire, Regards Frank.

[4x4shooter]

New rope 40m averages about 800 dollers repairing. Is OK but can let u down when most inconvenient