Jayflight - Heavy Ball Weight

[101RRS]

Here is a pic of my camper.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/Forum%20Posts%20Album/ebay5.jpg

It is easy to tow but has felt heavy at the front (not when towing) - certainly cannot lift it and it is not easy manoeuvre by hand. Tare weight is 680kg.

Today I put the jockey wheel on the bathroom and got quite a surprise - as I lowered the front onto the scales they just kept on going up and up and up - well past the scales 180kg limit - so ball weight has got to be in the order of 200kg or more. When weighing, the water tank (in front of the axle) was empty and van is unloaded.

Now given the layout of the van with the axle at the rear, ball weight is always going to be high but I was surprised by how great. I am tempted to move the water tank to behind the axle and remove the small 45A/h from the draw bar completely and install two 100Ah batteries on the rear bar in front of the jerry can holders.

While the ball weight is not an issue for any of my vehicles it does make the camper awkward to move by hand. I guess the issue is the design in the first place - having the water tank, fridge and kitchen in front of the axle was not a great move.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Garry

[Tombie]

Wow! Thats damn heavy for such a light camper!

[PhilipA]

Your wife wasn't in the front bed by any chance?
Regards Philip A

[TerryO]

Hey Garry,

might be an idea to take it down to the local weigh station and weigh it both with water and without and then you will know for sure what the actual ball weight is rather then guessing. Knowing what it is with the water tank full is more useful then when empty.

Personally I'd be checking with someone who knows their stuff whether or not adding so much weight to the rear is a good thing, even on such a lite camper.

cheer,
Terry

[slug_burner]

No one has ever had any stability problems, but they have all had to upgrade their tow vehicle:eek:

That is quite a bit of ball weight, three times as much as expected before you put some water in the tank. I'd be placing few heavy things behind the axle.

[101RRS]

That is quite a bit of ball weight, three times as much as expected before you put some water in the tank. I'd be placing few heavy things behind the axle.

Exactly what I was thinking - moving the water tank to behind the axle should help. Other than than that and maybe the battery, there is not much else to move - the annex poles etc are stored on the draw bar - maybe they also could go to the rear.

Garry

[Redback]

The ball weight could have something to do with how far the axle is from the actual ball, unfortunately that's what makes it easy to tow, puting the water tank behind the axle won't do much for the ball weight empty, it will be alot heavier when full, so it is a good idea to move it.

To make it easy for moving it around, I'd suggest one of those ratchet jockey wheels, from all accounts they work really well.

Baz.

[101RRS]

To make it easy for moving it around, I'd suggest one of those ratchet jockey wheels, from all accounts they work really well.

Baz.

Thanks Baz - I got one of them but went cheap and you get what you pay for. Mine is rated to 350kg but my camper bent it on its first move. Also the one I have has a ratchet (rat****) like a hi lift jack and the pins do not go into the holes - basically a heap of crap - will add some bracing and modify the rat**** and see how it goes - also the pump up tyre is not up to the weight and developed some cracks - so with these things it pays to look before you buy and not off ebay.

I think I will just put a bigger tank in the back and do away with the one in the front - there are no issues towing - just worried when offroad and have to man handle the van in tight situations - am going to carry a boat winch to help with that.

Cheers

Garry

[Hoges]

As with other comments I am very surprised at the towball weight for an approx 700 kg camper.

From very rough estimate from the photo, the distance from the axle to the hitch is approx x5 the distance from the axle to the rear. So a full 90L tank of water (+10kg for weight of tank for example) at the very back of the van will lighten the ball weight by 20Kg.

Similarly, 2x 100AH batteries weigh about 55kg total stowed in rear... may add about 10-11kg of "lift" at the front. 170 kg is still a lot of 'downforce' on a towball for that size van. AFAIK the towball weight should be ablout 10-15% of the GVM of the camper... 100 kg there abouts.... what's stashed inside the front of the van?;)

EDIT: Hmm on a "re-measure" the ratio might be about 3.5:1 instead of 5:1 in which case, on the above figures you might lighten it by 55kg...which leaves 145kg on the towball and is getting nearer the mark...

[PhilipA]

Looks like they put the fridge and door in , and then put the axle where it would fit.
Hmmm. A bit arse about if you ask me.

Regards Philip A

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Sorry Gary,,
small hijack--

last brisbane caravan show,
heard a "brand jacket" guy say they build it and then move the axles accordingly........

[TerryO]

Hi Garry, I finally found the boat winch today, so will get it to you when I get back from Sofala.

Merry Christmas,
Terry :)

[back_in]

Hi
Weighing the jockey wheel will increase Ball weight
the actual ball weight will prob. be 10/15 % less
cheers
Ian

[Graeme]

That would be some jockey wheel to weigh 20-30 kg!

[Xtreme]

Experienced this excessive ball weight problem with a family caravan about 50 years ago when I was just a young fella and it did sway uncontrollably and almost caused a major disaster. I recall dad tried repositionong various items in an effort to rebalance the set up but anything he did made insignificent difference so he ended up repositioning the axle and problem was solved. Also have a friend who bought an 'off road' van which was excessively heavy on the drawbar and on his second trip while doing about 90km/h on the highway it started to sway and caused the whole rig to roll over, writing off the van and the tow vehicle - a Range Rover.

Having learnt this lesson from experience, dads boaing business also involved building boat trailers and as the outboard motors (carried at the very rear of the load and having a major influence on the balance) were sometimes changed and subsequently affected the tow ball weight of the trailer, he used to build the axle/spring section as a separate box section which could easily be moved forward or back to achieve the ideal balance and tow ball weight. This 'ideal' tow ball weight he found (from experience) to be around 100lb, irrespective of GVM of the trailer. This weight also made the trailers very manageable when disconnected from the tow vehicle.

A bit different to what the RMS (old RTA) now recommend but I know for a fact that it worked well and those trailers used to tow beautifully. I've recently built a single axle car trailer and a 130 tub based camper trailer utilising the 100lb tow ball weight principle and they both tow exceptionally well and are easily manageable when disconnected.

So Garry, IMHO the only real solution to your dilemma is to either move the axle forward or replace the van with one that is better designed in the first place. However, due to the door and fridge position on your van the axle would be near impossible to move forward unless you were to give it a suspension lift as well and then your access, centre of gravity and stability would become a problem.

I hope you get it sorted out soon as vans can be handy to have at times but when they don't work properly can be a PITA. As mentioned in a previous thread by you containing similar thoughts, be careful of your back when coupling or uncoupling your van!:D

[Hoges]

Actually, when you think about it, one method of reducing the towball weight would be to lengthen the draw bar! Trouble is, don't know how practical that would be. A few measurements and a simple calculation of the "moments" involved would give you an answer...

[101RRS]

So Garry, IMHO the only real solution to your dilemma is to either move the axle forward or replace the van with one that is better designed in the first place. However, due to the door and fridge position on your van the axle would be near impossible to move forward unless you were to give it a suspension lift as well and then your access, centre of gravity and stability would become a problem.

Thanks for your detailed comments - however there is no issue towing the van as it is well within the tow requirements of the car and is very stable - it is just a pain to man handle around to connect it up to the car - I am changing the hitch to an ozhitch next week so that should reduce the alignment issue when connecting and as a result the need to man handle the camper.

Cheers

Garry

[slug_burner]

Actually, when you think about it, one method of reducing the towball weight would be to lengthen the draw bar! Trouble is, don't know how practical that would be. A few measurements and a simple calculation of the "moments" involved would give you an answer...

You would have to double the length of the A frame to halve the towball weight, not going to be practical.

[Xtreme]

Thanks for your detailed comments - however there is no issue towing the van as it is well within the tow requirements of the car and is very stable - it is just a pain to man handle around to connect it up to the car - I am changing the hitch to an ozhitch next week so that should reduce the alignment issue when connecting and as a result the need to man handle the camper.

Cheers

Garry

And I hope for your sake Garry that your rig continues to behave while being towed because it's a rather hopeless feeling when they start to sway and no matter what you do (brake, accellerate, drive with it etc) nothing seems to overcome it, and although, as you state "there is no issue towing the van...... " it can start at any time. Probably some odd type of road, wind, surface condition or a combination of conditions sets it off but at least I have eliminated the one factor that I can control with my trailers.

Good luck with yours.

[101RRS]

With the weight at the front rather than the rear I doubt I will have sway issues. I have learnt the hard way about loading trailers and have crashed a Suzuki with box trailer loaded with too much bias to the rear. Also experienced the steering and braking issues where the tow ball weight was too great so am much more cautious these days.

This is a standard Jayco model (except for huge Toyota 16" rims with MT tyres) so if there had been major issues with stability with this setup I am sure I would have heard about it. I do need to get it down to a weigh bridge to see what is the actual weight is.

It is a pity you did not go down to Geehi Flats with your club over the past few days where three of us from the Landrover Club of the ACT gate crashed (with approval) where we could have discussed the pros and cons of my van (did not have it with me) over a refreshing beverage.

Cheers

Garry

[Xtreme]

I will continue to follow this thread and the results of your investigations, rectifications and outcomes with interest.

BTW the LROC of Australia (NSW Branch) Inc. aka Land Rover Enthusiasts - NSW didn't have a trip to the Geehi area over Christmas/New Year, I think you must have us mixed up with some other mob. We will be doing our tour/s of the High Country during Autumn as we find it a much more pleasant time of the year to travel there.

If you are likely to be around there April/May drop me a PM and we could possibly have that campfire chat.

[101RRS]

Ok - so you are different to the Sydney group who also call themselves the LROC of Aust - all so confusing.:(

[Xtreme]

Correct. However, the last time I looked at a map, Sydney was quite different to New South Wales. :o
The only thing that's confusing is that we are all Land Rover Tragics :wasntme:

Anyway we should drop this subject and get back on track with your original topic and concerns.

[back_in]

Hi Graeme
Just for you
you knock without thinking
I perhaps should have said weighing the draw bar weight at the jockey wheel would show a difference to the weight at the coupling.
the jockey wheel is about 450 mm from the coupling
if you weigh the weight at the jockey wheel
it will be 10/15% greater than at the coupling
(I have a Kimberley Kamper, adding the extention to the tow bar reduced the tow ball weight)
I had to adjust my load because my Disco 1 in 1998 was rated at 250 kgs on the ball.
I have a sticker to prove it.
it has been changed, I do not know if it was done by Land Rover or some other body.
It is now 150 kgs
perhaps some one out there may know when and why.
cheers
Ian

[Stuck]

If your trying to weigh something heavier than your scales can read, try adding a piece of timber and a brick. Put the brick on the ground a little bit away from the scales and lay the piece of timber across the top of the scales and the brick. On the timber find the halfway point between the scales and the brick and that's where you put the load to be weighed. The scales should read (about ;)) half of the total weight because the brick's copping the other half.

Cheers,
Anthony.

[oldyella 76]

We have our own weighbridge and weigh a lot of vans for down weight and gross weight. It is a common problem and I think the van manufacturers have a lot to answer for. We would not weigh one van where the 10% limit is not exceeded and we have people moving gear in the van whilst it is still being weighed to attempt to bring weights into the envelope. Pretty hard to do.
I would suggest that anyone buying a van/camper do some weighing before they commit. Don;t believe what is on the plate as rarely are they right.
Lindsay.

[kenleyfred]

Hi Graeme
Just for you
you knock without thinking
I perhaps should have said weighing the draw bar weight at the jockey wheel would show a difference to the weight at the coupling.
the jockey wheel is about 450 mm from the coupling
if you weigh the weight at the jockey wheel
it will be 10/15% greater than at the coupling
(I have a Kimberley Kamper, adding the extention to the tow bar reduced the tow ball weight)
I had to adjust my load because my Disco 1 in 1998 was rated at 250 kgs on the ball.
I have a sticker to prove it.
it has been changed, I do not know if it was done by Land Rover or some other body.
It is now 150 kgs
perhaps some one out there may know when and why.
cheers
Ian

Our 96 tdi was rated to tow 4000kg but only 150 kg ball weight. It doesn't matter what the sticker states. You are restricted to what the vehicle manufacturer states.
150 kg did seem very low, don't know if it was changed by the 98 model.

[Hoges]

...(snip)

It is a pity you did not go down to Geehi Flats with your club over the past few days where three of us from the Landrover Club of the ACT gate crashed (with approval) where we could have discussed the pros and cons of my van (did not have it with me) over a refreshing beverage.

Cheers

Garry

Damn:mad: now I am homesick:dbcry:

[Graeme]

Hi Graeme
Just for you
you knock without thinking
I perhaps should have said weighing the draw bar weight at the jockey wheel would show a difference to the weight at the coupling.
Actually I was thinking of the difference in a van's weight when the van is attached to the vehicle but only the van's wheels are on the weightbridge and when the van sit on its jockey wheel and detached from the vehicle as being the ball weight (which is what I had already done with my van), regardless of where the jockey wheel is mounted on the van's drawbar. I suppose you were referring to weighing only the jockey wheel.