2.8L TGV Reliability / repairability

[roller]

Hi all looking into buying a 2.8l to replace the 300Tdi in a defender.

Who has one and what issues arise with servicing? is the rare nature of these engines in Australia an issue or are parts as common as the Tdi? (or interchangeable if that became necessary)

do people use these for long outback trips?

should i be able to expect a good few hundred thousand K's of trouble free driving as the engine is new? or is this a bit optimistic, (never owned a new engine before )

finally what’s the consumption like? can i still expect to be better than 10L/100k's?

Really want to hear from those who own one or have driven one/worked on one?

is it as simple as install and enjoy or am i looking at a life of struggling to source parts, explain issues and confused Land Rover mechanics ?

[series2110]

try Bruce davis Motor works in sydney

i am aware that Bruce has been doing a bit with these lately

defenderly

Peter

[uninformed]

mine now has 70'000km on it. Is used for work towing a 1.8t trailer everyday im at work. I had a little trouble with cooling when first installed but a different T/stat and cutting a hole in the guard has fixed this. I have had it serviced by a LR mech, alot of it is 300tdi but some isnt. Main serpentine belt isnt, but an off the shelf on is. I run stock R380. I have had a P gasket replaced becuase it was leaking. I just had to fix the turbo, small part, silly failure (blame Garrett) my fuel eco is about 13-14l/100km with trailer.

dont over fill it with oil :eek:

[Casper]

Where are you planning on getting a new one?
I heard they had stopped making them and all the new old stock was depleted?

I may have missed something somewhere thou....:o

Cheers Casper

[rick130]

I've read that MWM International don't have any crate engines anymore but all components are still available.

[uninformed]

have you considered a Isuzu?

[roller]

I had seen people talking about these being out of production. Im pritty shure i know where to find one, a friend living in the UK is helping me out from that end.

thought about the isuzu but i was put off by the thought that anything could be louder than the Tdi already is.. and half the point of buying a Defender was that it is 400kg lighter than an 80 series Toyota.. Adding a massive lump of isuzu kind of negated this?

is there anyone in Melbourne who has had experience with these? a workshop that has imported or fitted them?

Uninformed, what’s the fuel figures without the trailer? or should i expect to fill up more due to the extra power?

With the over heating do you this upgrading radiator/intercooler thermo fans could be enough? i cannot have heating issues again. been through that and almost lost my 4wd tinkering privileges:o

[rick130]

The 4BD1T is roughly 140kg heavier than a Tdi or TGV.

Jase, a member here used to import and sell the HS2.8 from Brazil. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/jase.html

You could try PM'ing him about fitting as it isn't a straight bolt in, engine mount lugs need drilling/tapping, I think a spacer needs to be machined for the flywheel pilot bearing, etc.

[frantic]

Just to throw a spanner in :D What about a 2.7/3.0tdv6 from either a disco,rrsport, territory,pug,jag with one of the english conversion kits? As ford is now using them for the territory plenty of parts and people who know how to fix them and they have made conversion kits in the u.k foir the gearbox and the electronics. I'm not sure if its lighter than a tdi .

Diesel ECU Packages (http://www.bodylogicuk.com/90265/info.php?p=10&cat=327154)
http://www.twinkam.co.uk/online/templatemedia/all_lang/resources/SC_P38.pdf

So according to the article a tdv6 conversion should cost around $9500-10,000 Aussie dollars and you can do either a 2.7 or 3.0 tdv6.

[uninformed]

I got mine from a mob in Vic, I will try and find details...they were putting them in LR so may have some info. Though their "cut the engine mount in half" method seemed a bit crude. I have no room to mount a full width rad with a intercooler in front. So I run stock. The intercooler is undersized for this engine/turbo in my mind. If you have a/c then that would mean triple stacking full width stuff. How would the airflow be to the rad then??? one problem with cooling and the defender engine bay is the hot air cant get out so well....hence hole/grill in gaurd. engine noise is not the only noise coming from a defender. price up the 2.8 plus everything and price up a good or rebuilt Isuzu plus everything.....you wont kill the later thats for sure (unless you are me)

If you are going the 2.8 and have a 300tdi, I would recommend the short bellhousing kit from ashcroft to move the engine back, then you could fit in full width rads etc.

re the V6, would be very nice but arent the stand alone ecu's about 3000 pound :eek: and thats just the computer, NO ENGINE!

[roller]

What would be the benefit of a full replacement 2.8L over rebuilding the 300Tdi and upgrading the turbo the Variable one and going a bigger rad/intercooler? Will this leave me with more space in the engine bay? Will it help keep cool?

Is a good rebuild be like getting a new engine? Or is it just going to slightly prolong its life? (engine seems to run fine now but has almost 340K’s and i have little history on it)

[uninformed]

the 2.8 is ment to have some benefits over the 300tdi. It has redesigned galleries in the block for better cooling, it has a real engine oil cooler. It is a bigger bore and stroke (just a turbo on a tdi wont net you the torque) apples for apples on rad and intercooler, ie what ever upgrade you make will benefit either engine. It also has the vacuum off the alt on the 2.8. It is the same physical size as the 300tdi, so nothing gained or lost, the turbo outlet is facing rearward on the 2.8....

if you move the 2.8 back via a Ashcroft bellhousing, you may have to mod a little of the bulkhead passenger foot well for the exhaust, but if you are having to fab new mounts for the engine i dont see this as a big deal....

[BigJon]

Is a good rebuild be like getting a new engine? Or is it just going to slightly prolong its life? (engine seems to run fine now but has almost 340K’s and i have little history on it)

A good rebuild (and good is the operative word) should be superior to a new engine. Rebuilding gives you the chance to optimise all the internal components, as opposed to a factory engine which is slapped together.

[rick130]

The TGV also has a better crank (forged instead of cast) better, more rigid rods and supposedly a better chamber in the piston.

[uninformed]

The TGV also has a better crank (forged instead of cast) better, more rigid rods and supposedly a better chamber in the piston.

lets hope so! :angel:

[roller]

these are the figures quoted for the turbo and intercooler upgrade. the full 2.8l only quotes 277lbf ft at the same RPM

is this just sales talk or will it strain the old Tdi be too much? cause that type of improvement looks plenty for me if its reliable..

PERFORMANCE
Standard Vehicle Stage 2

Maximum power :- 111 bhp @ 4,000 rpm 132 bhp @ 4,000 rpm
Maximum torque :- 195 lbf ft @ 1,800 rpm 258 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm

[roller]

A good rebuild (and good is the operative word) should be superior to a new engine. Rebuilding gives you the chance to optimise all the internal components, as opposed to a factory engine which is slapped together.


So the question becomes who can do a "Good" rebuild in melbourne and what type of $$$ am i looking at?

my main priority has always been to make this car better than new so i can get a good 20 years of fun out of it, before repeating the process.

[frantic]

One of the reasons I suggested a used tdv6 was cost v a 2.8 td new engine,from what ive heard one of those installed has been put at the same or up to 80% more than a tdv6 even with the 3k GBP(Around $4500-4800 AUD) electronics. And as we are going to have the 2.7tdv6 running around in territories for the next 5 years parts will be cheap as well as cheap engines(hail,tail enders writeoffs etc) compared to a brand new 2.8tdi from brazil.
here are the pommy quotes for a conversion: around 6500 gbp or $10500 AUD:o
Land Rover conversions - M&D Engineering (http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/index.php?act=category&cat_id=1)

[roller]

I had a friend who suggested the V6 but I’m keen to stick to a mechanically injected diesel... the type of driving i do requires minimal electrics, (iv been known to park in 4-5 feet of water or mud on an all to regular occasion)

[uninformed]

IMO you want to leave the 300tdi and the 2.8tgv stock output except for maybe a better flowing exhaust and better intercooler. Its not just the engine, but the whole engineering package including the dynamics of the vehicle

[PAT303]

I would rebuild the Tdi.Get the crank/rods/pistons balanced,flow the head,VNT with exhaust and bigger I/C and a nice tune up.That would be my one and only choice and it would go very nicely indeed.Send a PM to JC for all the good gaskets etc to use. Pat

[roller]

thanks Pat,

I like your idea, what reasoning would you put behind it? i need to justify all this in my mind before i hand over a perfectly working engine and pay thousands of $$$. also any idea on cost to get the work done? am i looking $5K or more like 10? (this is talking best possible parts no skimping on anything)

has anyone added the VNT turbo to a 300Tdi? will the extra fuelling and air crammed in up the running temp? or will a new intercooler actually make it run the same or cooler?

[uninformed]

I dont think you can have more power without more heat. EGT and engine temp are related but they are also 2 different things

[uninformed]

Pat, is your tdi stock?

[PAT303]

Pat, is your tdi stock?

Except for D/gas yes. Pat

[uninformed]

Is that lpg injection?

[PAT303]

thanks Pat,

I like your idea, what reasoning would you put behind it? i need to justify all this in my mind before i hand over a perfectly working engine and pay thousands of $$$. also any idea on cost to get the work done? am i looking $5K or more like 10? (this is talking best possible parts no skimping on anything)

has anyone added the VNT turbo to a 300Tdi? will the extra fuelling and air crammed in up the running temp? or will a new intercooler actually make it run the same or cooler?


Balancing just makes any engine smoother,it's very noticeable and if I was going to do a rebuild why not spent the little extra combined with the head to make it better?.A nicely built Tdi would be a good little thing but saying that if your engines going good now why are you rebuilding it?.If it's sound remove the head an get it flowed,a few hundred and do the head gasket while your there,get the bigends checked for wear,if there all good bolt her up,give it a good tune and go.I would not pull an engine apart just because it has a certain number of K's on it. Pat

[PAT303]

Is that lpg injection?

Yep.I've had it now for 3 years and my Tdi is none the worst for it,it gave me 12 more horses and 40 more torques for only 20 degree's more exhaust temp. Pat

[roller]

I was thinking to do a rebuild because i can control when it happens and plan for the costs. My other thought was that i want to get a little more power out of it and feel confident on long trips..

I have about $7000 in my budget as the purchase price was much better than expected. so i need to spend it and want to put it all into reliability. Oh and maybe a little comfort for the missus.

[slug_burner]

I think you will find the VNT and fitting kit will be a bit over the $2k, this is one such kit link (http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk/index.php?page=Defender-and-Discovery-200-300-TDI) (I think there is also an allisport kit) her is one from ebay uk (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300-Tdi-VNT-TURBO-POWER-IMPROVEMENT-KIT-stage1-/170332644467)

Jock the Rock fitted a VNT here is his thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/97088-vnt-turbo-performance-mods-300-tdi.html)

You might be able to get away with a freshen up of the engine and get the VNT kit in for your $5k. I hear that by dropping the sump and doing the bearing shells at 300k you should get another 300k out of the 300Tdi.

If you want to do an install of a HS 2.8 yourself here is a link (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~defender110@ozemail.com.au/mypage/index.htm) to Dave from South Oz who did the conversion himself and put it up on his webpage

[Gav110]

I've driven Bruce Davis' demo 2.8 vehicle in an old Deefer and can report that it absolutely flies! Outstanding pull at all engine speeds, smooth and relatively quiet. Bruce has all the tricks too incl. bigger exhaust. This vehicle was also reviewed in Aust 4WD Action magazine (can't recall issue no). Not sure on cost but even at the figures quoted above, I reckon it's good value to extend the life of a much loved truck - esp one with thousands of $ of mods/customizations vs losing about the same amount in depreciation on a new vehicle in the first 1-2 years.

When my Puma is ready for an upgrade I am counting on Bruce having mastered conversion of the Disco twin turbo V6 or RR TDV8 by then!

[uninformed]

I have not priced the Isuzu stuff out so dont know about that. But if your budget is only $7000 I would think that will only cover a good rebuild. Im saying that with the replacement of pistons and rings, all major bearings and bushes. All new seals and gaskets, some good machining. You would also be wise to do a new rad (unless yours almost new).

I think if your tdi going well atm, I personally would research the Isuzu route and gearbox. See how much a ok second hand engine is an factor a rebuild. You can be doing that over time while the tdi still working.

Both times now I have been caught out with engine failure, which does not allow me the luxury of time and best overall route to take.

my 2.8tgv was ment to be an improvemnet over the tdi for work reliabilty. The tdi did 230k the 2.8 did 70k.

[PAT303]

Serg do you have an idea why the 2.8 crapped itself?,was it overfilled with oil?. Pat

[uninformed]

Serg do you have an idea why the 2.8 crapped itself?,was it overfilled with oil?. Pat

Yes it was Pat, but the jury is out on that being the cause. Read my thread, the results are showing it may have been something else. Faulty injector is up there. But there is more to my advice that leads me to suggest the Isuzu.

[PAT303]

Serg,you do know that even if you had the Isuzu the same thing would have happened?,Isuzu's will transfer oil to the inlet side of the engine even if you fill them too quickly during an oil change. Pat

[uninformed]

Thanks Pat, Im not saying the LR stuff absolute junk. I just belive that the Isuzu to be more tollerant to non-perfect service and condtions. For a normal LR and light ocassional towing duties a well looked after tdi ok. Now I have read good stuf regarding the TD5, but as the OP doesnt want elecs it puts that option out.

As I have said before, your vehicle life is a testiment to your knowledge, skill set and effort. There are many many 1000's of people out there that dont have that and that doesnt make them dumb or ignorant. I was getting my tdi serviced every 10k as per LR's own schedule. If it is needed more frequently than this and other items done, where is a non mechanical person to look or even know this? I know of all my friends, my vehicle is the most looked after mechanicaly. Most dont get regular services. There was never a question when it came to mine, if something needed replacing it was done, and I didnt like cheap substitute parts. I dont know to many trucks out there that require a timing belt change at 70-80k and at the same time require the radiator to be rodded out, just to maintain some normal service.....the list of things like this is long on a LR. Yes any brand would benefit from doing it, but some things need it more than others. If you have the time, tools and skill AND want to great. But that should not be a pre-requisit of owning one.

Could you explain more about the "filling to quickly"? is this something I also may have done wrong. I used a macnaught drum pump, 100ml per pump. I just pumped away and counted the pumps...

[Defendozer]

What would be the benefit of a full replacement 2.8L over rebuilding the 300Tdi and upgrading the turbo the Variable one and going a bigger rad/intercooler? Will this leave me with more space in the engine bay? Will it help keep cool?

Is a good rebuild be like getting a new engine? Or is it just going to slightly prolong its life? (engine seems to run fine now but has almost 340K’s and i have little history on it)
Roller,
As far as the amount of K's on your vehicle are concerned I really dont think its an issue, my 95 300Tdi has done 376K's and its going just as strong as any other Tdi that I'v driven. When I bought the car it came with virtually no history for the maintenance side of things so have no idea how often the oil etc was changed, I now do my'n every 7-8k.

If I were you I would probably just go with rebuilding your 300tdi and fit a new intercooler if you you are looking for more power and maybe tweak the fuel pump a bit as well, in my opinion doing those mods doesn't affect the longevity much at all as long as you monitor the EGT's and make sure the engine doesn't overheat.

Its personal preference really but I would stay with the 300tdi.

[PAT303]

Serg,I don't overservice my vehicles,in fact I hate servicing my vehicles,you know the saying about never buying a mechanics car.When I service my vehicles I do the one most important thing and that is do it right the first time everytime,don't think for a moment that driving a cruiser or Patrol means not bothering with correct servicing,you can but it'll cost you down the road.You mentioned rodding the Tdi rad,yes it has to be done but why not?,it's cheap and easy and you won't be replacing rads,heads,waterpumps if you do and if you leave the heater valve open a crack all year round the heater element won't corrode out.Easy really. Pat

[rick130]

Pat, the heater core on a Defender gets full coolant flow all the time, (the heater lever opens and closes an air flap) but it's the plastic tanks that eventually let go :(

JC reckons they are still preferable to the aftermarket copper/brass ones though.

[Overlander]

Hello all. I'm in the US and I've had a 2.8 installed in my 93' 110 since 2006. I can say for certain that the 300 TDI stock radiator is not sufficient "as is" to keep the 2.8 cool in hot conditions. After a cracked head that lead to my turbo needing replacement twice (due to coolant in my oil and I didn't realize it..my mistake), I had my radiator recored with more veins and a smaller bypass and now my coolant temps stay well under 180F under all conditions. No more cooling problems at all.

I have quite a bit of 2.8 experience myself at this point if anyone needs any shared experience. I also post quite a bit on d-90.com (the Defender forum in the States).

Cheers!

[uninformed]

welcome Overlander.

I have found, that by venting the left side wing (1/4 pannel) and using a slightly lower opening temp thermostat, that my temps are well within resonable. This is WITH a A/C condensor (1/4 inch thicker than stock) in front of stock rad and slightly up graded intercooler. I also do NOT have the electric fan in front of AC condensor any more.

cheers
Serg

[jakeslouw]

IMHO, rather get a nice 3.2 4-cyl TDi engine from an Isuzu or Mitsu or whatever is cheapest and most easily available in Australia, with a 5-speed truck box, mate that to a late LT230 t-case, and install that.

Keep the 300TDi with box and old LT230 just in case.

[SG1]

Hi all looking into buying a 2.8l to replace the 300Tdi in a defender.

Who has one and what issues arise with servicing? is the rare nature of these engines in Australia an issue or are parts as common as the Tdi? (or interchangeable if that became necessary)

do people use these for long outback trips?

should i be able to expect a good few hundred thousand K's of trouble free driving as the engine is new? or is this a bit optimistic, (never owned a new engine before )

finally what’s the consumption like? can i still expect to be better than 10L/100k's?

Really want to hear from those who own one or have driven one/worked on one?

is it as simple as install and enjoy or am i looking at a life of struggling to source parts, explain issues and confused Land Rover mechanics ?


Hi Fossicker,

I have driven a 2.8TGV powered D110 (ex-Td5) for the last 5 years. I find the engine is brilliant, at least as reliable as the 300Tdi, perhaps more. Very simple engine to service. I have only had one single minor issue with the engine in 5 years ( a bolt that holds the water pump to the engine broke ).

The best it has is the torque (WAY more than the 300Tdi) and the availabity of power all over the rpm range, right from zero rpm's , thanks to the TGV (or VNT in Enlgish).

Bottomline is: it IS reliable and it is very easy to service (as easy as it gets, at least down here in Argentina where there are loads of Ford Ranger pick ups with that same engine). Just about any mechanic in the country can service it. It is not the same with the Td5's and Puma's down here in the developing world!

Another good thing is the engine is only 3kgs heavier than the 300tdi.
I love my 2.8 TGV.
Hope it helps.
Cheers,
Santiago

[SG1]

Hello all. I'm in the US and I've had a 2.8 installed in my 93' 110 since 2006. I can say for certain that the 300 TDI stock radiator is not sufficient "as is" to keep the 2.8 cool in hot conditions. After a cracked head that lead to my turbo needing replacement twice (due to coolant in my oil and I didn't realize it..my mistake), I had my radiator recored with more veins and a smaller bypass and now my coolant temps stay well under 180F under all conditions. No more cooling problems at all.

I have quite a bit of 2.8 experience myself at this point if anyone needs any shared experience. I also post quite a bit on d-90.com (the Defender forum in the States).

Cheers!


I have read about the problems of using a stock 300Tdi radiator with a 2.8 TGV before but my experience is different. I had the radiator dirty in the beginning and my engine got up to 100C ONCE. I then cleaned the radiator and since then ( last 4 years) I have never seen the engine T rise above 92-93C. I have an accurate VDO gauge installed. In the summer I drive at 110-115km/h for 12 hours non stop (just to re-fuel) with >35C outside so I believe it is a good test.

[rick130]

Santiago, do you have air conditioning ?

[uninformed]

yes it has been a while since I drove a stock 300tdi 110....but IMO I dont feel the 2.8 has the torque and power that the internet had me believe(or I wanted to believe) Rick130 may be up this way soon. If so I will insist he drives my truck to get another grounded POV

Ben (Isuzurover) gave it a very short drive....(should have used more throttle mate...its not a Isuzu :D)

[Don 130]

Regarding availability of the 2.8TGV engines. I was out at bruce Davis' getting parts last week, and the parts bloke told me there were two crated engines waiting for jobs on the shelf.
Don.

[rick130]

Wonder if BD is buying them through M&D in the UK or direct from MWM in Brazil ?

[rick130]

yes it has been a while since I drove a stock 300tdi 110....but IMO I dont feel the 2.8 has the torque and power that the internet had me believe(or I wanted to believe) Rick130 may be up this way soon. If so I will insist he drives my truck to get another grounded POV

Ben (Isuzurover) gave it a very short drive....(should have used more throttle mate...its not a Isuzu :D)

Well we can back to back it against a 300Tdi easily enough :D

[SG1]

Santiago, do you have air conditioning ?

Yes, I do.