Life of Puma Rear Diff's

[FLINTSTONE]

Hi all,

Sheldons done 74000 K's. (09 Puma)

Well Saturday avro while out with the boys from LROC Syd, Sheldon's diff starting talking to me, 'yelling actually'.:BigCry:

Today dropped it by the boys at L/R Trivett Parramatta to have a squiz and yep the diff's cactus. The pinion and crown gear have been having a blew.
A couple of pins in the diff also loose picked up by a little clunking noise as you take off from standing start and pulling up. (Might have to check Geoff the Disco).

I couldn't really tell there was a problem with the clutch as I'm still comparing with my previous L/R's.

So under warranty Trivetts are changing diff, clutch and shimming the T'case????:D

This was the first time I'd popped into Trivetts, (after moving from FNQ ) and I'm very happy with my initial dealings. They were upset they couldn't do it straight away. I'm happy it's getting done.

Should I expect more than 74000K's?????????

What do others get out of their diffs or should I assume it's an isolated incident / event?


Still Love the Puma

:banana: Qld'er.

[PAT303]

They aren't set up correctly from new and thats what stuff's them,Ashcrofts had a photo showing the pinion barely meshing with the crownwheel on a brand new replacement center. Pat

[roley18]

Our 2008 Puma is on it's 3rd rear diff, 42k on the clock.

The 3rd one has that 'dry running' sound when backing off at around 90kmhr, but heaps better than the first two.

Replacing it with the good gear from Ashcrofts would be great, but does that solve the problem ?

How hard is it to fit a diff . . . properly.

[Blknight.aus]

Ford quality control at its best... makes the joke about the gaps in the panel work of a landy look like its been toleranced with a laser micrometer.

setting up a diff properly is a 3 or 4 out of 5 spanners depending on which diff it is and which gear youve got to do it with.

[Naks]

Rear diff lasted just short of 30,000km on my 90. Didn't even do much offroading :angel:

[isuzurover]

Puma diffs are not fit for purpose IMHO.

For means of comparison, the diff in my 110 lasted ~350k km before I removed it when fitting a locked (disc-disc) axle.

[wrinklearthur]

I would like to see the blue marks, after a noisy diff has been loaded and with engineers blue added.

This is the only way that you can read whether a diff has been setup properly.

It should be loaded as much as if the vehicle is say climbing a steep bank, then the blue marks should show if there is any flex in the carrier, etc.
.

[newhue]

I have an Ashcroft locker and axels awaiting for installation. My puma has 40K on it and has had no problems with the running gear.

Should I be buying a pinion and crown gear as well perhaps to equal the locker.

[davep130]

I got less than 30000Km out of both my front and rear diffs in 2008 130.

Rear now has a salisbury with detroit locker

[Drover]

2008 PUMA,

35,000k's - no prob's (touch wood)

Front and rear diff's are quite as.

I have fitted Ashcroft half shafts front and rear, Ashcroft drive flanges and Ashcroft CV's, all 4340 CR-MO:D

Next on the list is Ashcroft lockers and HD crown wheel/pinion sets.

I would love to hear from owners who have not had any problems, just to balance this thread out.

Cheers

[jplambs]

I agree Drover, some good news stories would be good, I was starting to wonder if I had done the right thing ordering a 130 last week after reading this thread.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Cue the crickets ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

[ando90]

Our 2008 Puma is on it's 3rd rear diff, 42k on the clock.

The 3rd one has that 'dry running' sound when backing off at around 90kmhr, but heaps better than the first two.

Replacing it with the good gear from Ashcrofts would be great, but does that solve the problem ?

How hard is it to fit a diff . . . properly.


Hi all

So far my 2010 90 diff is ok..i think.

It does make that same "dry running" sound when backing off around 90kmh.

Is this something that will lead to bigger problems? Im nearly at the 20000km service so will wait to speak to LR then

Does anyone else experience this problem?

Cheers

Ando

[Tomo]

2009 Defender, 53K on the clock, mostly hwy driving (unfortunately)
completely stock running gear

No Problems

Except for oil leaks which is another story.....

[n plus one]

2009 Puma 67k. About to get my second set of half shafts under warranty - no noise from the diff just a fair bit of freeplay in the system.

Not really sure the shafts are the issue though - any thoughts?

[ezyrama]

2012, 110 and the diffs are fine after 2000k's ;)
But the Turbo hose did come off after 139km, some limp wristed nancy didn't know how to tighten a hose clamp.

[Blknight.aus]

Puma diffs are not fit for purpose IMHO.

For means of comparison, the diff in my 110 lasted ~350k km before I removed it when fitting a locked (disc-disc) axle.

funny, it worked fine in the p38 and behind the later model td5's...

perhaps its the antistall killing them because somethings got to give when the wheels dont want to turn any more and the engine wants them to.

[sashadidi]

2008 puma 23000km used mainly off road no problems

[uninformed]

I just had a quick look at Ashcroft Transmissions. From what I can tell they only have stock 3.54 and an aftermarket 4.11 for the p38/late 110 rear. This diff seems to be more of a problem than the rover front.

Upgrading axles, flanges, cvs and carriers will all help to some degree, but the big problem is the small bearings, thin ring gear and short pinion. Which when added up with torque = defelction. Now add in a poorly set up diff and you dont have much chance.

Ashcroft did alude to a HD fix for these axles here on AULRO but no details where given.

Since they have had many R+P's made, I would have thought they be able to get a HD upgrade sorted. This may mean you have to run their carrier, but thats not a bad thing either.

I have stated before, and would like to know if the 3rd cast housing has the meat to have bigger carrier and pinion bearings fitted?

[newhue]

Drover, I have done 42K on mine, maybe 11 of it high ways, 1 off road, and 30 of it stop start in city traffic. I have had no issues with the running gear on the 130. It bangs and clunks all over the place but I believe this is normal.

I decided to put a locker, axels, and flanges in based on concerns people have had on the forum. I also wanted max traction for problematic water crossings as the puma is no submarine. And lastly we are planning some decent remote travel and want a bomb proof diff that will get me home if the front fails as well. I have bought flanges to run the front in oil in due corse.
It concerns me the pinion and ring gear are what seems to fail. However I plan to run the warranty out and then insert the locker, and I'd say pinion and crown gears now as well. It pains me that LR might try and link a diff lock to other mechanical driveline failings i'e gear box or trans if that were the case.

[PAT303]

All they need is to have the backlash set-up correctly,do that and they are fine.Like all things LR everyone has an opinion,the strongest from people who don't even own a puma. Pat

[Naks]

All they need is to have the backlash set-up correctly,do that and they are fine.

Pat, how does one do that?

[PAT303]

Diff shop,they do it day in day out. Pat

[Loubrey]

Southern Land Rover, Perth did mine.
There was a minor recall on a seal and when I got it back, the worksheet showed that they tested and adjusted the backlash and prop shaft play. Been absolutely great since and I’ve twice now done the Karratha-Perth-Karratha trip (3000km) at max comfortable speed and ambient temperatures that exceed what 95% of Defenders will ever experience. On top of that we are out most weekends rock and boulder climbing with no issues...

[Allan]

My rear diff has a slight wine around 70-80kmh but is silent on over run. It's always had the Puma clang though. After my last trip away I noticed the pinion oil seal leaking. I changed the seal and used Loctite on the splines when I re assembled it. It's not the same vehicle, no clang in the transmission at all. I also changed the oil to Nelon 90 Limited slip.


Allan

[wrinklearthur]

My rear diff has a slight wine around 70-80kmh but is silent on over run. It's always had the Puma clang though. After my last trip away I noticed the pinion oil seal leaking. I changed the seal and used Loctite on the splines when I re assembled it. It's not the same vehicle, no clang in the transmission at all. I also changed the oil to Nelon 90 Limited slip.

Hi Allan

Which number Loctite, did you use please?
.

[Allan]

Hi Allan

Which number Loctite, did you use please?
.
I used Permatex Threadlocker Red. Got it at Supe Cheap.

Allan

[rick130]

Hi Allan

Which number Loctite, did you use please?
.


I used Permatex Threadlocker Red. Got it at Supe Cheap.

Allan

All Loctites seal pretty well but I wonder if 510 or 518 gasket maker would be better there ?

They are an anaerobic sealant that I've used for the last twenty years on flanges, etc. and work really well without the potential removal issues of threadlocker.

[PAT303]

Southern Land Rover, Perth did mine.
There was a minor recall on a seal and when I got it back, the worksheet showed that they tested and adjusted the backlash and prop shaft play. Been absolutely great since and I’ve twice now done the Karratha-Perth-Karratha trip (3000km) at max comfortable speed and ambient temperatures that exceed what 95% of Defenders will ever experience. On top of that we are out most weekends rock and boulder climbing with no issues...
My Tdi and Puma are the same.High temps,fast dirt roads,no worries. Pat

[Naks]

See this chap's woes with his rear diff:


Just wondering if anyone else has experienced any rear diff issues and if so what was causing it?
My car is 12 months old having just turned 14k and has just eaten its 5th rear diff!!! The rear prop has been tested by a specialist and found to be perfect! :

Defender2 - View topic - Rear Diff issues (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic11535.html)

[Pilbara130]

2012, 110 and the diffs are fine after 2000k's ;)
But the Turbo hose did come off after 139km, some limp wristed nancy didn't know how to tighten a hose clamp.

My turbo hose popped off at 12000k as well it was a pain in the bum as I was half way between Newman and Meeka at 2 in the morning and pelting rain.Other than that I have had a great run in the 130.

[uninformed]

All they need is to have the backlash set-up correctly,do that and they are fine.Like all things LR everyone has an opinion,the strongest from people who don't even own a puma. Pat

Well its the Puma owners who decieded to call it a Puma. As you know that is just the engine code name. The diff itself is also seen in P38's and other non Puma 110's. It has shown problems in the past and more so now. Yes set up is a very important part of the problem. But you can not take away from the design and materials. I have heard from a very reliable source that when they first saw them from the outside, hopes were high. When the opened them up they were soon disapointed. Carriers are week by design, Ring gear is thinner than standard rover type. The casting and the housing has the room for a bigger Dia ring gear, larger carrier bearings and pinon bearings. A built rover diff is stronger than a built P38/late 110 rear diff.

[isuzurover]

All they need is to have the backlash set-up correctly,do that and they are fine.Like all things LR everyone has an opinion,the strongest from people who don't even own a puma. Pat

Dave Ashcroft may not own a Puma, however he knows LR diffs better than anyone else.

For the puma diffs (unlike the P38 diffs) they may have let the work experience kid set them up, but they still have inherent design problems.


the problem is the bearings wear a little and as they are so close together this lets the pinion move out of the correct meshing position and this causes noise,

it may well be fine for many more miles like this but I would advise to maybe put a new ring and pinion and timken bearing set in
this is a very very common problem in the late 110 rear axle, and the issue as I see it is that the diff is just too small, I like the idea of making a bolt in upgrade :

new ring and pinion, make the pinion 50mm longer, to get the bearings further apart, less leverage and load on them,
shortened rear prop, (salisbury may fit to keep it stock LR)
make new hypoid casing, about 1.5" offset, low pinion, loads stronger
35 spline 4340 halfshafts, (never break)
air locker as standard
new stub axles, machines hubs and new bearings due to bigger shafts
new 10 bolt drive flanges

You can spend half of that on an ARB and 24 spline HD shafts and the diff is just as weak,

what do you think ?

Dave Ashcroft

[justinc]

Dave Ashcroft may not own a Puma, however he knows LR diffs better than anyone else.

For the puma diffs (unlike the P38 diffs) they may have let the work experience kid set them up, but they still have inherent design problems.

These 2003 on 110 / 130 rear P38a diffs are rubbish. Period. The inherent design is weak, and they aren't up to it.

I agree with the comment ashtrans made about fitting an airlocker and HD axles to them, basically a waste of time IME.

I just fit salisbury diffs to them now, end of issue.

JC

[ashtrans]

Hi,

as per the above post we have designed this diff and I see no reason why if we make it, it cannot be supplied as just a replacement diff with HD 24 spline halfshafts or as per the above spec with the larger diameter shafts (35 may be overkill) and stub axles, hubs and flanges to suit,

one further complication with either option is a new propshaft will be required as the diff flange will be further forward,

due to the bolt hole positions we are not able to bolt the diff directly to the axle housing, we will have to fit a steel adapter flange to the axle housing then fit the diff to this, this does have a further advantage though, with a slightly different flange and machine the diff housing slightly differently it will be possible to fit this same diff as a 'rover diff' replacement for the 110 front or 90 or disco,

hopefully as time goes on more people will recognise the P38 diff is not upto the job and demand will grow and we will get this into production,

Dave

[uninformed]

Hi,

as per the above post we have designed this diff and I see no reason why if we make it, it cannot be supplied as just a replacement diff with HD 24 spline halfshafts or as per the above spec with the larger diameter shafts (35 may be overkill) and stub axles, hubs and flanges to suit,

one further complication with either option is a new propshaft will be required as the diff flange will be further forward,

due to the bolt hole positions we are not able to bolt the diff directly to the axle housing, we will have to fit a steel adapter flange to the axle housing then fit the diff to this, this does have a further advantage though, with a slightly different flange and machine the diff housing slightly differently it will be possible to fit this same diff as a 'rover diff' replacement for the 110 front or 90 or disco,

hopefully as time goes on more people will recognise the P38 diff is not upto the job and demand will grow and we will get this into production,

Dave

Thanks Dave, a few q's for you regarding your design for a HD P38 diff:

The new R+P, is the ring gear a larger OD? is it thicker?

Did you end up doing a hypoid offset? If so Im guessing a whole new diff casting must be supplied?

why do so much mod on it which now brings it close to the Force9? or is it based of the same parts?

I would have thought that more sales be had in something that could be done well without getting to full blown, for 90% of Puma owners Id think 4340 or better 24 or 30 spline enough. Which again requires less mods.

I know that if you were to mod and install bigger bearings in them that would mean an exchange 3rd or a machine shop....But would that not be better than a whole new casting?

[justinc]

Dave, just do it! We can easily soak up $2K AUD supplying and fitting an appropriate salisbury to a Puma or late Td5 110/130, so your setup will retain good ground clearance etc and be strong enough so I for 1 would happily sell them in preference to an 8HA. In fact, I would fit one to my 110 (as I have several empty 110 P38a housings lying about now...:)) to gain some ground clearance back....

JC

[justinc]

Hi,

as per the above post we have designed this diff and I see no reason why if we make it, it cannot be supplied as just a replacement diff with HD 24 spline halfshafts or as per the above spec with the larger diameter shafts (35 may be overkill) and stub axles, hubs and flanges to suit,

one further complication with either option is a new propshaft will be required as the diff flange will be further forward,

due to the bolt hole positions we are not able to bolt the diff directly to the axle housing, we will have to fit a steel adapter flange to the axle housing then fit the diff to this, this does have a further advantage though, with a slightly different flange and machine the diff housing slightly differently it will be possible to fit this same diff as a 'rover diff' replacement for the 110 front or 90 or disco,

hopefully as time goes on more people will recognise the P38 diff is not upto the job and demand will grow and we will get this into production,

Dave

Dave, a great idea. On the tailshaft idea don't worry too much, retubing is pretty cheap, and yes I agree 35spline is a bit of overkill, (A good option for people who like 35" tyres though...) and could you also utilise the same factory axles etc for a 'budget' version?, as these diffs are failing even with light use sometimes, they don't even last long enough to wear out factory axles and flanges:mad: so that would aid lower costings. Something to drop in to a standard housing using standard stubs , axles etc would be very attractive IMO.

I am waiting....:D

JC

[rick130]

Dave, just do it! We can easily soak up $2K AUD supplying and fitting an appropriate salisbury to a Puma or late Td5 110/130, so your setup will retain good ground clearance etc and be strong enough so I for 1 would happily sell them in preference to an 8HA. In fact, I would fit one to my 110 (as I have several empty 110 P38a housings lying about now...:)) to gain some ground clearance back....

JC

and can we have a high pinion version for the front please ? :D

Would Dana 44 CWP's be strong enough for this, that'd save tooling costs.

I didn't realise there's an 8.9" version of the 44 too.


The Dana Spicer Max momentary output torque FT-lbs


Low pinion Dana 44 30 spline............3460 [ft/lbs]
High pinion Dana 44 30 spline...........4170 [ft/lbs]
Low pinion rear 8.9" dana 44 32 spline..5340 [ft/lbs]

[Bush65]

I know I can fit a Nissan H233 diff into an early rover housing, so one day will try and grab a p38 housing and see if similar can be done - might be needed if I can't get my 120 rego'd in QLD with my hybrid cruiser axle assemblies that are wider track than rover.

The H233 is more than strong enough for most, and can be had in both low and hi-pinion. I know of the front hi-pinion being used in front and rear of some competition rangies.

[uninformed]

Ruffstuff Specialties in the USA are working on Rover type front housings. These, I believe, will be a direct bolt up, bolt in housing. But much stronger than the stock type. While this wont help the P38/110 rear diff, it may help those with heavy front ends.

[rick130]

I know I can fit a Nissan H233 diff into an early rover housing, so one day will try and grab a p38 housing and see if similar can be done - might be needed if I can't get my 120 rego'd in QLD with my hybrid cruiser axle assemblies that are wider track than rover.

The H233 is more than strong enough for most, and can be had in both low and hi-pinion. I know of the front hi-pinion being used in front and rear of some competition rangies.

I forgot about that John, it needs some 'massaging' of the opening from memory, I have some photos filed of how it looks and that diff is more than strong enough.

[uninformed]

what size carrier bearings are used on the H233?, what size are used on the P38/110 rear?

[rick130]

what size carrier bearings are used on the H233?, what size are used on the P38/110 rear?

Who knows ?

I've never seen inside, nothing ever goes wrong with Nissan drivelines :angel:

[wrinklearthur]

Hi all

The Nissan H233, is that a diff type number or is it a vehicle model ?

Please, excuse my ignorance .
.

[rick130]

Diff type number.
There are several versions of the H233 too, bolt sizes have changed, etc.

They come in high and low pinion and were/are used across a lot of models.
For a high pinion diff, think GQ/GU front diff centre which I think are the H233B.


[edit]
Here's a pic from the pinion end of a front

http://www.marks4wd.com/images/products/diff_gears/NISSAN-H233-11BOLT-FRONT.JPG

I'm trying to find the pic of the modified Rover housing to take it.

[uninformed]

I believe that the "H" is for Hitachi

[wagoo]

The Nissan conversion is likely the optimum solution.Hell even a Suzuki LJ50 diff would be an improvement.
On the other hand, for the relatively small numbers of Puma owners that are likely to want upgrades, surely there are enough RRC/Disco 1 axle and diff housings lying around wrecking yards that can be retrofitted to Pumas/Defenders after being filled with Ashcroft goodies.Even a Series pinion housing of which a few million were produced can be fitted with 3.54:1 ring and pinions, and presumably the Ashcroft upgrades as well.I just don't see the need to make a new casting for the Puma just to spread the pinion bearings further apart when the earlier castings were adequate in that regard.And the carrier bearings are large enough, no need to upgrade sizes there.9'' Ford carrier bearings are no larger.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Bill, from what I have been told and where Im coming from, is the physical potential of the housing and casting to have a bigger stronger diff than the Rover type. Im surprised that Ashcroft would use a new casting, unless it is the Force9 which means more of something already in production. The guy that talked to me about the P38, knows diffs and knows Rovers. The best solution for sales and customers is something that just bolts in. But if a really good solution ment an exchange 3rd, with a new carrier, locker, larger-better R+P big carrier bearings and big pinion bearings, all set up and ready to bolt in....maybe that could be a seller :confused:

[PAT303]

If mine causes me grief a disco rear diff can be had for $200 and with Ashcroft goodies will do everything I want,a Sals won't be even thought about,I'm not a fan and never will be. Pat

[wagoo]

But if a really good solution ment an exchange 3rd, with a new carrier, locker, larger-better R+P big carrier bearings and big pinion bearings, all set up and ready to bolt in....maybe that could be a seller :confused:
Doesn't such a diff already exist in the form of the McNamara Hypoid? All the Rover ratios plus all the Toyota Hilux ratios to choose from. It would be interesting to know how many have been sold over the years to gauge sales potential for an Ashcroft alternative, although one could add around 50% to those figures to account for Mcs attitude.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Doesn't such a diff already exist in the form of the McNamara Hypoid? All the Rover ratios plus all the Toyota Hilux ratios to choose from. It would be interesting to know how many have been sold over the years to gauge sales potential for an Ashcroft alternative, although one could add around 50% to those figures to account for Mcs attitude.
Bill.

I was going to add, how much longer will they be in production. I have heard that even with money in hand it can be hit and miss if you get one due to personality

[First90]

When still very new I had a strange noise develop from the right rear. After many trips to the dealer and new seals, assemblies, bla, bla, it turned out that the right rear shaft of the diff was completely rusty. No problems in the 12k km's since its replacement though.

[uninformed]

When still very new I had a strange noise develop from the right rear. After many trips to the dealer and new seals, assemblies, bla, bla, it turned out that the right rear shaft of the diff was completely rusty. No problems in the 12k km's since its replacement though.

where was it rusty and where was this causing noise?

[ashtrans]

Doesn't such a diff already exist in the form of the McNamara Hypoid? All the Rover ratios plus all the Toyota Hilux ratios to choose from. It would be interesting to know how many have been sold over the years to gauge sales potential for an Ashcroft alternative, although one could add around 50% to those figures to account for Mcs attitude.
Bill.

you are right Bill,

this got me thinking, there are many similarities but I am thinking we may have over engineered the ring and pinion, the one we have started with is the ford 8.8 which is massive and causes problems with getting to all 10 of the mounting bolts meaning an adapter ring needs fitting to the housing then the diff fitting to this, this would work but is not very neat, it would be nice to not need the ring.

the toy 8" is way stronger than the P38 and rover diff due to being hypoid so we may not need anything much stronger than this,

rather than take an existing R & P and adapt it to fit I think we need to start from scratch and see how strong we can get in terms of offset and hypoid distances but keeping within the existing 10 mounting bolt pattern,

the problem with any design is working out where to draw the line, if you try to make it cover all possible combinations it's get too complicated and expensive, ie just 24 spline, 24 and ford 31 or 24, 31 and 35 spline, to make it cover the 35 spline will mean bigger side gears and journal bearings etc which will add cost just for the few that will have this option as you will also need new hubs, stubaxles, drive flanges etc. also whether to make the diff casting able to also be machined as a rover replacement, ie not just the P38 110 rear

I think most sales would be a straight drop in 3.54 replacement with locker and HD 24 spline shafts for the 110 rear P38 type,

the 24 spline shafts aren't really the problem here, it's the diff thats the weak point

Dave

[justinc]

you are right Bill,

this got me thinking, there are many similarities but I am thinking we may have over engineered the ring and pinion, the one we have started with is the ford 8.8 which is massive and causes problems with getting to all 10 of the mounting bolts meaning an adapter ring needs fitting to the housing then the diff fitting to this, this would work but is not very neat, it would be nice to not need the ring.

the toy 8" is way stronger than the P38 and rover diff due to being hypoid so we may not need anything much stronger than this,

rather than take an existing R & P and adapt it to fit I think we need to start from scratch and see how strong we can get in terms of offset and hypoid distances but keeping within the existing 10 mounting bolt pattern,

the problem with any design is working out where to draw the line, if you try to make it cover all possible combinations it's get too complicated and expensive, ie just 24 spline, 24 and ford 31 or 24, 31 and 35 spline, to make it cover the 35 spline will mean bigger side gears and journal bearings etc which will add cost just for the few that will have this option as you will also need new hubs, stubaxles, drive flanges etc. also whether to make the diff casting able to also be machined as a rover replacement, ie not just the P38 110 rear

I think most sales would be a straight drop in 3.54 replacement with locker and HD 24 spline shafts for the 110 rear P38 type,

the 24 spline shafts aren't really the problem here, it's the diff thats the weak point

Dave


Most certainly Dave!!!!!

JC

[Bush65]

Diff type number.
There are several versions of the H233 too, bolt sizes have changed, etc.

They come in high and low pinion and were/are used across a lot of models.
For a high pinion diff, think GQ/GU front diff centre which I think are the H233B.

...
Pretty much. They are fitted to front (high pinion version) and rear (low pinion version) of Nissan GQ and GU patrols. Some patrols have the massive H260 rear diff.

AFAIK 233 is the diameter of the crown wheel/ring gear in mm (rover is 8.5" so approx 226 mm, but much weaker). They are available in a good range of ratios.

Serg, I don't know the carrier bearing size off hand, but can say it is not an issue.

My interest in whether they would suit the P38 diff is because I am not using an LT230 transfer in my 120, and I need a centred (or small left offset) diff - currently I have a flipped 105 series LC rear diff, but QLD only allows 50mm increase in track (I hope this will change with adoption of national code of practice).

[rick130]

you are right Bill,

this got me thinking, there are many similarities but I am thinking we may have over engineered the ring and pinion, the one we have started with is the ford 8.8 which is massive and causes problems with getting to all 10 of the mounting bolts meaning an adapter ring needs fitting to the housing then the diff fitting to this, this would work but is not very neat, it would be nice to not need the ring.

the toy 8" is way stronger than the P38 and rover diff due to being hypoid so we may not need anything much stronger than this,

rather than take an existing R & P and adapt it to fit I think we need to start from scratch and see how strong we can get in terms of offset and hypoid distances but keeping within the existing 10 mounting bolt pattern,
[snip]

Dave

Dave, the Toyota high pinion 8" centre was a popular substitution for the front diff centre here, but reading the boards it sounds like quite a few found out what the Toyota 79 and 80 Series blokes found it, it goes bang in reverse.

[rovercare]

Dave, the Toyota high pinion 8" centre was a popular substitution for the front diff centre here, but reading the boards it sounds like quite a few found out what the Toyota 79 and 80 Series blokes found it, it goes bang in reverse.

The 4.3:1 reverse cut a horribly weak, as fitted to naturally aspirated 78/79 diesels

The 4.1:1 arent as bad, but still.....

The go is the jacmac cast 3rd housing as it bolts in and fits a Hilux Hypoid, normal crown wheel and pinion and has clearance for the drag link, I have one on the bench I scabbed up a while ago:)

Its also a 3.54, Jeff had a heap of these made up, they really are a good thing

Although, I was just going to stick some trutracks in my P38, but seeing as its going to be around 500HP and either 427ci or 350 and supercharged, I'm liking the sound of the H233 conversion:angel:

[rick130]

Here's the modified Rover housing.

I can't recall who did this, John posted or re-linked the the photo's, he'll remember.

I think you had to weld the ring onto the housing and I'm guessing a pipe cap front cover ?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[goingbush]

If mine causes me grief a disco rear diff can be had for $200 and with Ashcroft goodies will do everything I want,a Sals won't be even thought about,I'm not a fan and never will be. Pat

Hey Pat, just wondering whats wrong with the Salisbury, Ive never had a issue in any of my Landys, I always converted them to Sals even my Series 2 88 had a Sals with Macnamara diff lock,
I was lucky enough to have bought a TD5 Defender with a Salisbury conversion & Maxidrive axles done. I know people complain that they hang too low which may or may not be an issue in the Victorian Alps but would not have thought it a 'sticking point' in WA.

Personally I have never found the 'dozer blade' moniker to be warranted.
anyway I'd rather be grounded on a rock than reaching for the sat phone.

In the past I've grafted complete Toyota axle housings to a Landy, its not that hard, What about just using complete Nissan assemblies in a Defender and never worry about diff, axle or cv issues again, cheap and easy to do, a lot easier than stuffing about with pumpkins and getting axles made. And only downside is it will look funny with 6 stud rims.

[uninformed]

I know this may cause a stir, but from the reading I have done, a built Rover type diff is not far behind a built Toyota diff in a Rover housing. Forget axles and CV's (these days they are equal). With the new HD R+P available from Ashcroft and GBR, a strong carrier (Ashcroft or ARB) and pegged they are pretty close. Yes you dont hear about it much but I have heard it from guys running both. And there are Rover guys that have converted to Toy/Rover and broke stuff just as much.

IMO 98% of P38 owners would not need better than good quality after market 24 or 30 spline. If they need to go to 35, then the diff size, Rover or Toyota will not cope. Plus it means new stub axles, bearings and hubs. They would be better off going to a Sals converted to a D60 internal and 35 spline set up at this point.

So Why go to the effort of a whole new casting to get not much gain. Either improve the p38 center, R+P or if going to fit a hypoid, look at bigger than the Toy....Im not sure, but isnt the P38 housing bigger than a Rover? If so then maybe that Nissan H233 center would be better. I know it will be better than the Toyota.

Yes the Toyota has better AM coverage, but it is still a small diff.

Lets look at the total number of sales of P38 rear ends and number of failure THAT ARENT DUE TO SET UP.....Also what else is strong about it, because there must be a reason LR never put a Rover type rear end in the 110 and 130.

[PAT303]

Hey Pat, just wondering whats wrong with the Salisbury, Ive never had a issue in any of my Landys, I always converted them to Sals even my Series 2 88 had a Sals with Macnamara diff lock,
I was lucky enough to have bought a TD5 Defender with a Salisbury conversion & Maxidrive axles done. I know people complain that they hang too low which may or may not be an issue in the Victorian Alps but would not have thought it a 'sticking point' in WA.

Personally I have never found the 'dozer blade' moniker to be warranted.
anyway I'd rather be grounded on a rock than reaching for the sat phone.

In the past I've grafted complete Toyota axle housings to a Landy, its not that hard, What about just using complete Nissan assemblies in a Defender and never worry about diff, axle or cv issues again, cheap and easy to do, a lot easier than stuffing about with pumpkins and getting axles made. And only downside is it will look funny with 6 stud rims.

Other manufacturers build strong enough diffs that are half the size and a third of the wieght of the Sals,back in my younger days I did a day a week offroad around appin,wedderburn with mates in RRC's and it was common for them to get through were my defender hung it's guts,I have a photo somewhere of it sitting on a ledge with both rear wheels off the ground,after getting dragged off my mate drive straight over the same place in a rover diffed 2a without a wimper. Pat

[PAT303]

Dave, the Toyota high pinion 8" centre was a popular substitution for the front diff centre here, but reading the boards it sounds like quite a few found out what the Toyota 79 and 80 Series blokes found it, it goes bang in reverse.

Changed one two weeks ago in an 80,reversed at the tip with a load of rubbish in a trailer. Pat

[PAT303]

I'm with Serg,an Ashcrofts rover center would be more than strong enough for 99% of owners on here,tourers are what most have and a bit more strength for towing campers/boats etc is all thats needed,with puma's an LSD center would fit the bill nicely. Pat

[uninformed]

I'm with Serg,an Ashcrofts rover center would be more than strong enough for 99% of owners on here,tourers are what most have and a bit more strength for towing campers/boats etc is all thats needed,with puma's an LSD center would fit the bill nicely. Pat

Since the Rover type diff is already covered with AM gear, why not create a new market for the P38 type. Ashcroft already have a decent center/dedicated locker for it. All it needs is some good AM R+P and to be set up PROPERLY

If "I" was going to the trouble of doing a whole new center for the housing, I would not look at the Toyota type already used in Rover conversions.....maybe another Toyota center would fit? 60 series? or other. The Nissan is known to be a good diff. As long as carrier bearings are big enough or can be sorted easy enough to take a 30 spline axle.....

I would not be worried about what Hi or Low pinion works in the front. This is a rear issue only.

For the real hard core either a Ashcroft force 9 or simply get a custom axle made (like a Sixty9 or true high 9 or even the new drop out 14b)

[PAT303]

Trouble is Serg people want a drop in replacement and don't want a hog pog set-up.I wouldn't buy a toyota or nissan center with blah blah axles etc,I want a straight drop in rover diff with standard or Ashcrofts parts.Trust me,if your stuck the last thing you want is to find non stock parts. Pat

[uninformed]

Pat, do you feel a stock Rover diff much better than a stock P38? Im talking R+P, carrier, side gears, bearings and cast housing....

[rick130]

Other manufacturers build strong enough diffs that are half the size and a third of the wieght of the Sals,back in my younger days I did a day a week offroad around appin,wedderburn with mates in RRC's and it was common for them to get through were my defender hung it's guts,I have a photo somewhere of it sitting on a ledge with both rear wheels off the ground,after getting dragged off my mate drive straight over the same place in a rover diffed 2a without a wimper. Pat

So easy to fix compared to making a decent diff out of a Rover rear.
Shaving it doesn't take that long or is very hard.

Having said that I'm impressed by the bracing and gusseting on 130man's ex Telstra 130 bigcab Rover diff.

Telstra were pulling Sals axle tubes by grossly overloading their 130's so LR retrofitted Rover rear diffs that look like they came out of a Desert racer.

BigJon's seen them as most came from up where he used to work.

[uninformed]

So easy to fix compared to making a decent diff out of a Rover rear.
Shaving it doesn't take that long or is very hard.

Having said that I'm impressed by the bracing and gusseting on 130man's ex Telstra 130 bigcab Rover diff.

Telstra were pulling Sals axle tubes by grossly overloading their 130's so LR retrofitted Rover rear diffs that look like they came out of a Desert racer.

BigJon's seen them as most came from up where he used to work.

Pics or it didnt happen.

Now as to a custom axle, the rear end on a rover is pretty basic. With the large number of aftermarket fabricated housings in the USA, you can have your choice of: Nissan, Toyota, Dana 60, Dana 70, Ford 9 and 14b all in removable 3rd members. You can get them in the exact Rover offset and overall width, welded on axle flanges. All that would have to be done here is the A frame mount, TA links and shock mounts.....easy

[rick130]

Pics or it didnt happen.

[snip]


I knew someone would pick me on it :p

I should've taken pics when Ross was last up here with his Defender and I think his camera had died last time I asked for some to post on another thread.

[uninformed]

So back to reality. IF you have a Rover diff with Ashcroft locker carrier and a P38 type diff with Ashcroft Locker carrier, what is the weak point?

R+P....lets say both are stock OEM 3.54....how much difference is there?

The P38 type is thinner, but the carrier has a larger shoulder to help this. The pinion is short and bearings close together but is this a real problem?

Really for those that are now having problems with them it is mostly set up as they are failing in road type driving....If it were due to off roading or overloading and finding the limits then yes a full upgrade is needed, but is it?

I do wonder for those that have had more than one replaced under warranty, is it a matter of the dealership workshop just getting a complete 3rd out of a box and fitting it? in which case, the factory bad set up would be finding its way back in the vehicle....

Have materials used been changed/got worse in the last 2-3 years???

Are people having problems with the Rover fronts in their "Puma's"?

[uninformed]

I knew someone would pick me on it :p

I should've taken pics when Ross was last up here with his Defender and I think his camera had died last time I asked for some to post on another thread.

forgot to ask, do you think it was a Rover diff of some sort (Rover, Sals, P38 type?) or another brand???

[rick130]

forgot to ask, do you think it was a Rover diff of some sort (Rover, Sals, P38 type?) or another brand???

It's either Rover or UK Army XD (Wolf/P38a ?)

[rick130]

I'm with Serg,an Ashcrofts rover center would be more than strong enough for 99% of owners on here,tourers are what most have and a bit more strength for towing campers/boats etc is all thats needed,with puma's an LSD center would fit the bill nicely. Pat

Yep, it'd be more than strong enough for what I do/need.

[PAT303]

So easy to fix compared to making a decent diff out of a Rover rear.
Shaving it doesn't take that long or is very hard.

Having said that I'm impressed by the bracing and gusseting on 130man's ex Telstra 130 bigcab Rover diff.

Telstra were pulling Sals axle tubes by grossly overloading their 130's so LR retrofitted Rover rear diffs that look like they came out of a Desert racer.

BigJon's seen them as most came from up where he used to work.

When I was living in Kalgoorlie a defender was dragged into town with an axle tubed welded/ratchet strapped in place. Pat

[PAT303]

Pat, do you feel a stock Rover diff much better than a stock P38? Im talking R+P, carrier, side gears, bearings and cast housing....

Trouble is both have good and bad points,the P38 has a stronger center but the rover has Ashcrofts HD CW&P,I don't know why LR just didn't keep the rover diff but fit a hypoid HD center with matching alxes and not bother with the sals or P38,makes you shake your head. Pat

[PAT303]

Pics or it didnt happen.

Now as to a custom axle, the rear end on a rover is pretty basic. With the large number of aftermarket fabricated housings in the USA, you can have your choice of: Nissan, Toyota, Dana 60, Dana 70, Ford 9 and 14b all in removable 3rd members. You can get them in the exact Rover offset and overall width, welded on axle flanges. All that would have to be done here is the A frame mount, TA links and shock mounts.....easy

I mentioned that to Dave,there's heaps of diff shops that make complete 9'' diffs from common housings in any width,all it needs is LR hub flanges welded on and trailing arms/A frame mounts so why go to the trouble of making a 9'' casting to suit a rover housing when you can buy of the shelf?,lots of ratio's and axle combinations to meet all markets. Pat

[PAT303]

Serg,everyone I know who has had the center replaced did it because of backlash,the dealers replace them with centers with the same amount of backlash.Go figure. Pat

[wagoo]

I used to run shaved Salisbury diffs front and rear on my shorty before I built the current Rover portal setup. For the kind of use my vehicle gets I wouldn't go back to the Sals. Even when heavily shaved there is still a lot of surface area to get hung up on, and realistically we are legally restricted to 36'' tyres here in OZ. The only way I could make the Sals work in the terrain I like to operate in was to heavily offset them and tuck them inside the inner wheels of a dual wheel arrangement I made up.
Whilst thw crownwheel/pinion, carrier assembly is virtually bulletproof, I've seen quite a few with broken axle tubes and damaged housings due to spun pinion or carrier bearings when I was in the trade.
Bill

[wrinklearthur]

The only way I could make the Sals work in the terrain I like to operate in was to heavily offset them and tuck them inside the inner wheels of a dual wheel arrangement I made up.
Whilst thw crownwheel/pinion, carrier assembly is virtually bulletproof, I've seen quite a few with broken axle tubes and damaged housings due to spun pinion or carrier bearings when I was in the trade.
Bill

Hi Bill

I run a 110 Defender with a Salisbury fitted with maxi drive axles, mainly for the heavy towing that I do.
With the axle housing tubes, I have noticed that in heavy going some have broken those tubes where they enter the diff centre's cast housing.
Is there a proven way to strengthen that weak point?
.

[Bush65]

Hi Bill

I run a 110 Defender with a Salisbury fitted with maxi drive axles, mainly for the heavy towing that I do.
With the axle housing tubes, I have noticed that in heavy going some have broken those tubes where they enter the diff centre's cast housing.
Is there a proven way to strengthen that weak point?
.
Greater wall thickness - common method used for the similar Dana 60's in USA.

They also bridge over the cast centre, but normally that is to suit modified upper links.

[uninformed]

Not disregarding what Bill said, and a mate of mine went Rover type on his heavy portal custom because he could laminate and strengthen a rover housing easier than a Sals, plus more clearance, But remember the total number of Sals out there doing there thing and total number of casing failures.

I think we are getting away from facts and reality a bit. What some do with their trucks is not what many do.

I have a MD locked and loaded Sals in my 110, I have 65-1 low range. I tow 1.8t 80-90% of the time, I have done a fair amount of medium 4x4ing. No signs of failure.

I know Rick has a heavy 130 that is laden most of the time, it is 98 vintage and still going fine Sals wise.

I think we need to sort/worry about the P38 before the Sals.

And again, If you feel worried about any rover stuff, Just get a Sixty9. This is a full new custom housing by RuffStuff Specialties, The Center casting section is made by JRat Offroad. This makes a D60 into a removable 3rd with Fab'd housing. By nature of the castings, you can set it up either hi or low pinion. It has massive carrier bearings. You can mod a D70 gearset to fit inside it. You can run 35 and probably even 40 spline axles. At 35, you will need custom stub axles new bearings and modded hubs. At 40 you may not be able to run LR rims due to the sheer size.

Or any number of full spec Ford 9 inch fabed housings, with upgraded castings for the 3rd, HD race spec gears carriers bearings etc.

Or the custom desert racing 10inch gearset...TT's are winning on these

Even the big 14b now has been customed into a removable 3rd...

Or just get Steve Gresner (sp) to build you some custom D80/Rockwells....he does them for mud racing/jumping trucks with over 1000hp....I think they will just be ok in a 130 :angel:

[Bush65]

So back to reality. IF you have a Rover diff with Ashcroft locker carrier and a P38 type diff with Ashcroft Locker carrier, what is the weak point?

R+P....lets say both are stock OEM 3.54....how much difference is there?

The P38 type is thinner, but the carrier has a larger shoulder to help this. The pinion is short and bearings close together but is this a real problem?

The close spacing of the pinion bearings is the major issue. Bearing loads are higher, deflections are greater so tooth alignment is adversely affected and shifts the tooth load to a short section of the teeth, instead of distributing it across the full tooth width.

Really for those that are now having problems with them it is mostly set up as they are failing in road type driving....If it were due to off roading or overloading and finding the limits then yes a full upgrade is needed, but is it?

I do wonder for those that have had more than one replaced under warranty, is it a matter of the dealership workshop just getting a complete 3rd out of a box and fitting it? in which case, the factory bad set up would be finding its way back in the vehicle....

Have materials used been changed/got worse in the last 2-3 years???

Are people having problems with the Rover fronts in their "Puma's"?


So easy to fix compared to making a decent diff out of a Rover rear.
Shaving it doesn't take that long or is very hard.

Having said that I'm impressed by the bracing and gusseting on 130man's ex Telstra 130 bigcab Rover diff.

Telstra were pulling Sals axle tubes by grossly overloading their 130's so LR retrofitted Rover rear diffs that look like they came out of a Desert racer.

BigJon's seen them as most came from up where he used to work.
IIRC Dave Ashcroft said the reason Land Rover replaced the salisbury with P38 style diffs was because they could easily make the housing stronger for the military Wolf.

[uninformed]

Btw, at some point all Land Rover housings have failed. I have seen stock ones on stock trucks cracked. (these housings were kept as proof ;))

housing flex is another reason R+P fail.

Ruffstuff Specialties is coming out with a bolt in HD front Rover housing.

[uninformed]

John are the pinion bearings on the P38 type bigger or wider than those on a Rover type?

[Bush65]

Here's the modified Rover housing.

I can't recall who did this, John posted or re-linked the the photo's, he'll remember.

I think you had to weld the ring onto the housing and I'm guessing a pipe cap front cover ?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=44091&stc=1&d=1330411243

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=44092&stc=1&d=1330411243
The mod was done by another member. My only contribution was some measurements and suggestions, based upon stuff I had at hand and because I have a hybrid front axle that uses a H233B high pinion centre with ARB in a landcruiser 60 series rear housing with landcruiser 105 series front halfshafts and Longfield 80 series cv's with 105 series hubs, etc. All stock parts if it should break anywhere.

Edit: those pics of rover housing, most of the cuttout is to clear the carrier bearing housing - the bearings are plenty large enough Serg, widely spaced in a strong housing. The ring gear/crown wheel is between 9" and 9-1/4" and stock gears are good quality.

The spacer in the last pic below is to be welded to the rover housing. With a little work a jig could be made to locate on the rover housing (after removing diff) so new bolt holes can be drilled and to allow accurate marking where to cut the flange. After cutting, bolt the Nissan diff with the spacer and weld the spacer to the housing to compensate for the material cut out. Those pics were just a trial to prove the concept and the flange was cut out of an old nissan housing, then machined to the required thickness.

I believe recent ARB's allow 80 series side gears to fit H233 lockers, so that opens up the possibilty of fitting rovertracks (forgot Keith's new business name) halfshafts and cv's.

[wagoo]

Hi Bill

I run a 110 Defender with a Salisbury fitted with maxi drive axles, mainly for the heavy towing that I do.
With the axle housing tubes, I have noticed that in heavy going some have broken those tubes where they enter the diff centre's cast housing.
Is there a proven way to strengthen that weak point?
.
Does your Defender have a Boge load leveller fitted Arthur?
One of the many things that convinced me that LandRover engineers were/are amatures is that they didn't specify an increase in tube wall thickness when the axle was widened 6'' over the previous series 3 dimension. Not only that, but they also fitted a Boge unit over the centre to impose a greater bending load on the assembly.
Having said that, the majority of broken axle tubes I've seen were off Perenties, and they don't have Boge units fitted.
I was talking to Mal Story (Maxidrive) years ago, and he told me that he didn't believe thicker walled axle tubing was the answer, because he reckoned the casting would break. Not sure about that though. This would certainly apply to the early Salisburies fitted to late series 2As, but the ribbing of series 3 and 110 castings were significantly more substantial, and at any rate the FC101 axle tubes are very thick and I've yet to hear of their castings failing.
A bridge as John suggested would be easier to do than retubing the axle assembly.
Bill.

[Loubrey]

This all said gentlemen, I have tallied up the total kilometres I've done in Land Rovers (early R6’s and Defenders) over the years (boring habit of logging all fuel an associated kilometres/miles) and the grand total to date with my current Puma 90 is 1,424,564km. While I've broken various bits over the years (more often my fault than the car's), ALL of these kilometres were done on 100% standard differentials.

Building roads in Central Africa I’ve towed water and fuel bowsers many hundreds of kilograms over the vehicles rated capacity/ability in the worst possible off road conditions and except for the odd snapped half shaft (and never while towing), I’ve never had issues with Rover or Salisbury diffs.

So, while manufacturers of aftermarket products will always slate OEM equipment, there is no substitute for “Mechanical Respect” for the moving parts of any machine. This includes preventative maintenance, regular oil changes (especially when there is a hint of moisture) and easing off the throttle when it's clear the car is not happy with what you are putting it through!

The golden rule of bush maintenance: The further you retrace the path of power (wheels, final drives, half shafts, diffs etc) the more complex and expensive the repair. Install bullet proof halfshafts and you will lose a diff. Install bullet proof diffs and you will eventually lose your gearbox...

The choice is yours...

[Bush65]

John are the pinion bearings on the P38 type bigger or wider than those on a Rover type?
Sorry I don't know. The problem is the close spacing between the pair of bearings that support the pinion.

[uninformed]

Sorry I don't know. The problem is the close spacing between the pair of bearings that support the pinion.

Shame they didnt add a nose support bearing like others have....or just build it decent. Funny thing is LR probably dont even make diffs, so if they are going to someone like Dana etc why not chose something good :angel:

[Bush65]

Shame they didnt add a nose support bearing like others have....or just build it decent. Funny thing is LR probably dont even make diffs, so if they are going to someone like Dana etc why not chose something good :angel:
Pretty difficult to follow their logic. They finally fixed the weakest link in the chain by making the diff 4 pinion, then possibly looked for a way to claw some of that cost back, thus replacing one weakness with another.

[rick130]

Hi Bill

I run a 110 Defender with a Salisbury fitted with maxi drive axles, mainly for the heavy towing that I do.
With the axle housing tubes, I have noticed that in heavy going some have broken those tubes where they enter the diff centre's cast housing.
Is there a proven way to strengthen that weak point?
.


Does your Defender have a Boge load leveller fitted Arthur?
One of the many things that convinced me that LandRover engineers were/are amatures is that they didn't specify an increase in tube wall thickness when the axle was widened 6'' over the previous series 3 dimension. Not only that, but they also fitted a Boge unit over the centre to impose a greater bending load on the assembly.
Having said that, the majority of broken axle tubes I've seen were off Perenties, and they don't have Boge units fitted.
I was talking to Mal Story (Maxidrive) years ago, and he told me that he didn't believe thicker walled axle tubing was the answer, because he reckoned the casting would break. Not sure about that though.
[snip]
Bill.


Apparently the 130 Sals has heavier wall axle tubes than the 110 version.
I think it was Clarkie that mentioned this.

Can't remember offhand, maybe 10mm vs 8mm ?

[uninformed]

Apparently the 130 Sals has heavier wall axle tubes than the 110 version.
I think it was Clarkie that mentioned this.

Can't remember offhand, maybe 10mm vs 8mm ?

cut yours up and report back...:p

[wagoo]

Apparently the 130 Sals has heavier wall axle tubes than the 110 version.
I think it was Clarkie that mentioned this.

Can't remember offhand, maybe 10mm vs 8mm ?
Doubt it was ever as thick as 8mm but don't have one to check anymore.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Doubt it was ever as thick as 8mm but don't have one to check anymore.
Bill.

Now you would have had you hands on many more than I, but for some reason I have a feeling that the normal 110 coil Sals is 8mm wall tube :confused:

would it be turned down a little at the diff center end to machine it true round?

[uninformed]

I have seen it mentioned on the USA sites, with regards to comparing the popular USA diffs (D60-70-80, Ford 9, 14b, Rockwell 106, 205 etc) that while some are physically bigger, others have better gear design, which allows more torque in some applications.....

Id the OEM gear desgin of the P38 type rear better than the OEM Rover type?

[isuzurover]

Apparently the 130 Sals has heavier wall axle tubes than the 110 version.
I think it was Clarkie that mentioned this.

Can't remember offhand, maybe 10mm vs 8mm ?

Series 3 sals has 5.6mm wall tubing (can't see why a 110 would be thicker).

Most US axles are only 6.3 mm wall.


This is a series sals, but I am 99% sure they are the same.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/County_parts027.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/County_parts028.jpg

Flange OD: 131.5 mm
8 mm thick
Tube: 80 mm OD throughout (series and 110)
67 mm ID at flange - but only 5.6 mm wall in middle - maybe tapered?

Disc converted 110 sals. Will take measurements on w-end if different.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/County_parts026.jpg


Axle Tube Information

Axle Thickness/Size
Dana 30
2.500" x 0.250" wall
Dana 35
2.500" x 0.250" wall
Dana 44 1/2 ton
3.000" x 0.250" wall
GM 10-bolt
3.000" x 0.250" wall
GM 12-bolt
3.000" x 0.250" wall
GM 14-bolt
3.000" x 0.250" wall
Ford 8.8 3.250" x ?.???" wall
Ford 9-inch
3.000" x 0.250" wall
Dana 60 rear
3.125" x 0.313" wall
Dana 44 front 3/4 ton
2.750" x 0.500" wall
Dana 60 front
3.125" x 0.500" wall
Dana 70 rear
3.625" x 0.563" wall
Dana 80 rear





http://4x4help.com/axle/axletube.htm

[rick130]

approx. 6mm and 8mm for the 110 and 130 tubes according to Clarkey and Fred Smith.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1032037-post16.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/84292-130-diffs.html

[wrinklearthur]

Thanks Bill


Does your Defender have a Boge load leveller fitted Arthur? Neither of the Salisbury's I have has a load leveller.
The 110 Flat tray, does have air bag helpers in the original springs.


A bridge as John suggested would be easier to do than retubing the axle assembly.
Bill.
Has anyone some photo's of one of those bridges that has been completed?
I think that is the way to go with those Salisbury's.

With the P38 diffs, wasn't there a issue with poor quality bearings for a while?

With my old six cylinder 2A Flat tray, the amount of half shafts, swivel pin U/J's, and diff's that thing went through, beggars belief! I'm so pleased with the run I have had from my present setup, there has been no breakages at all!

With those Rover style diffs, Rover designed those diffs for a little car, back somewhere before the Second World War, got away with using them in the 80", but by the time they got around to using them in all their models and in a FC! That wasn't funny at all .
.

[isuzurover]

...
Has anyone some photo's of one of those bridges that has been completed?
I think that is the way to go with those Salisbury's.
...
.

This one is poorly designed, but you get the idea. Do a search for "Dana60 AND truss" images and you will find heaps.
http://www.bangedupoffroad.com/gallery/albums/PanchoPicsLongRanch/abs.jpg

[slug_burner]

Here are a couple that came up.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1401.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1402.jpg
If this is a bridge or truss what is meant by laminated?

[isuzurover]

...
If this is a bridge or truss what is meant by laminated?

Laminating means tubing the axle housings internally or plating them externally. Laminating adds a lot of mass for little increase in strength (in comparison to a well designed truss).

[wagoo]

Series 3 sals has 5.6mm wall tubing (can't see why a 110 would be thicker).

Most US axles are only 6.3 mm wall.

I've noticed on some 110s that the right hand axle tube had an integral forged flange as shown in Bens photo, whilst the left hand side axle tube had the flange friction welded on. The right side tube is the same length as series 3s, so maybe Salisbury were using up surplus short side axle tubes for a while.
Bill.

[uninformed]

there would be no point laminating a Dana/Sals type diff, as it is the tubes pulling out of the cast center section that is the problem....of all those trusses shown, to me they look like alot of weight for little gain. The Dana/Sals housing is its let down. You cant remove the diff easy and they suck to strengthen. Thicker stonger tubes would be the go.

enter the sixty9....

[djam1]

In the Sahara Series vehicles up to about 1973 had a reputation for breaking the tubes.
I was told by Neil at Suttons in Alice Springs that the Series Army Land Rovers had tubes pressed into the axles making them stronger than the Civilian ones.

I presume everyone has seen this

Jordan Rover-Tech :: Jordan Rover-Tech - Perth, Western Australia (http://www.jordanrover-tech.com.au/index.cfm?Page_ID=12)

[ashtrans]

to get back on topic, latest thoughts are :

concept : stronger drop in diff for 110 rear

thoughts :

it's the ring and pinion thats the problem,

keep 24 spline shafts, these were good enough for the salisbury and we stock HD which are even stronger

the existing locker is as strong or stronger than the HD shafts so why not keep it ?, if we can use our P38 varient this will also allow you fit the stock 4 pin or any other centre you desire, the centre is never the problem,

make a new ring and pinion similar to the rover, ie long pinion but with approx 1.5" low hypoid offset, will check but this should increase strength considerably,

make new housing to suit, design casting so it can be machined for P38 or rover application,

new shorter prop will be required due to longer pinion,

thoughts ?

Dave

[uninformed]

now your the sales guy and im just the wannabe dreamer so take with as much salt as required:

If the P38 type housing allows for a bigger dia Ring gear, I personally would not comprimise it by making it fit into a Rover type housing.

Thoughts?

[TimNZ]

Sounds like a good compromise Dave, personally I'd just like something a bit stronger and more reliable than the factory diff, with an optional locker, that is quite easy to fit.

A new center and prop sounds much better than retrofitting a Sals, (including any ABS woes), and then welding girders to it. (Just my 2c :) ).

Cheers,

Tim

[ashtrans]

now your the sales guy and im just the wannabe dreamer so take with as much salt as required:

If the P38 type housing allows for a bigger dia Ring gear, I personally would not comprimise it by making it fit into a Rover type housing.

Thoughts?

both measure 217mm dia

[ashtrans]

FYI I can get 2 new ABS type Salisburys complete here in the UK and can supply at £ 1600 ea if you can't wait !!!

Dave

[PAT303]

both measure 217mm dia

I've ask this before,why can't you fit a rover HD center into a P38 housing?,is it the stud pattern thats different?. Pat

[isuzurover]

In the Sahara Series vehicles up to about 1973 had a reputation for breaking the tubes.
I was told by Neil at Suttons in Alice Springs that the Series Army Land Rovers had tubes pressed into the axles making them stronger than the Civilian ones.

I presume everyone has seen this

Jordan Rover-Tech :: Jordan Rover-Tech - Perth, Western Australia (http://www.jordanrover-tech.com.au/index.cfm?Page_ID=12)

The hole in the axle tube and associated welding creates a stress concentration. I know a number of MD locked sals axles which have fractured the same as that - all were used extensively for outback touring.

I have never seen a non-MD-locked sals tube fracture in the same way.



FYI I can get 2 new ABS type Salisburys complete here in the UK and can supply at £ 1600 ea if you can't wait !!!

Dave
LR Australia recently had a sale of NOS ABS Sals axles disc-disc. They were a LOT less than GBP1600 though!

[ashtrans]

I've ask this before,why can't you fit a rover HD center into a P38 housing?,is it the stud pattern thats different?. Pat

yes, stud pattern is different but I don't see there being much strength difference, maybe a little better as the pinion bearings are further apart but I think more strength is required for a robust 110 rear end,

Dave

[uninformed]

both measure 217mm dia

Is that the housing (not the casting, but the main housing) or the ring gear dia. I was lead to believe that the p38 type housing is larger in the center section area than a Rover type housing.

[ashtrans]

Is that the housing (not the casting, but the main housing) or the ring gear dia. I was lead to believe that the p38 type housing is larger in the center section area than a Rover type housing.

sorry thats the ring gear diameter,

the P38 casing bolt pattern is on a slightly larger diameter,

if the ring gear gets bigger it may foul the far side of the casing and the top and bottom cut outs, all of which adding hassle to a 'drop in' upgrade

Dave

[newhue]

to get back on topic, latest thoughts are :

concept : stronger drop in diff for 110 rear

thoughts :

it's the ring and pinion thats the problem,

keep 24 spline shafts, these were good enough for the salisbury and we stock HD which are even stronger

the existing locker is as strong or stronger than the HD shafts so why not keep it ?, if we can use our P38 varient this will also allow you fit the stock 4 pin or any other centre you desire, the centre is never the problem,

make a new ring and pinion similar to the rover, ie long pinion but with approx 1.5" low hypoid offset, will check but this should increase strength considerably,

make new housing to suit, design casting so it can be machined for P38 or rover application,

new shorter prop will be required due to longer pinion,

thoughts ?

Dave

If it will give me a stronger and more reliable factory diff, I'm interested.

Estimated price Dave, I have your Locker and P38 spacer ring, and axels.

[ashtrans]

I haven't even looked at costs yet but from other parts we make I could take a guess, depending on how many we make :

ring and pinion £ 225-250
casing £ 200-250
bearings, seal, flange, no more than £ 100

if you want a locker £ 475
if you want HD shafts £ 260

Dave

[wrinklearthur]

to get back on topic, latest thoughts are :
concept : stronger drop in diff for 110 rear thoughts :

it's the ring and pinion thats the problem, agreed

keep 24 spline shafts, these were good enough for the salisbury and we stock HD which are even stronger Use the HD with lockers

the existing locker is as strong or stronger than the HD shafts so why not keep it ? agreed

, if we can use our P38 varient this will also allow you fit the stock 4 pin or any other centre you desire, the centre is never the problem, agreed

make a new ring and pinion similar to the rover, ie long pinion but with approx 1.5" low hypoid offset, will check but this should increase strength considerably, make the pinion length that way so to standardise with existing prop shaft lengths that have been used in previous models.

make new housing to suit, design casting so it can be machined for P38 or rover application, I'm not sure about this if I am reading this right, if existing housings can be used with minimal modification and with tools normally found in a small workshop, then fitting another diff centre would be a lot less complicated for someone that is well away from an engineering works.

new shorter prop will be required due to longer pinion, make the pinion length that way so to standardise with existing prop shaft lengths that have been used in previous models.

[ashtrans]

Hi,

we may be able to get the prop flange in the right place to accept the salisbury type propshaft so at least if will be a'off the shelf' rover part,

when I say casing I mean the diff casting not the axle housing, the diff casting will have to be all new as the ring and pinion would be hypoid,

Dave

[uninformed]

Dave, if you are going to make a new center casting, would it be possible to make the ring gear dia bigger to make use of the larger housing opening. You mentioned the opening was bigger, but the back of housing would fowl. Make the casting so it pulls the ring gear away
from it just enough. This probably won't work though as the side gears won't line up with axle shaft center line......

[wrinklearthur]

Here are a couple that came up.

http://www.hereticfab.com/images/P/shafferstruss%2014%20bolt-01.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1401.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1402.jpg
If this is a bridge or truss what is meant by laminated?

Hi Slug_burner

Thanks for finding those photo's, I wanted to keep this in this thread as it relates to the strength of Land Rover diffs in general, (Fifty lashes shall be received by yours truly if I am out of order).
All of those mods are heavy without addressing properly the issue of the tube breaking where it enters the diff centre casting.

I will write this next part as a demonstration for youngsters, so please don't feel annoyed at the simplistic description, instead grab a twelve year old and go through doing the model with him/her.

For way of an illustration, play with a milk carton, a couple of pencils and a sheet of paper.

Lay the carton down, puncture the carton each side with the pencils so the holes are opposite.

Try and lift the carton using a finger under each pencil and the pencil's will bend up, the weakness is the wall of the carton, relate that to the Salisbury where the tubes enter the diff centre housing.

The next thing to try, is to strengthen the joint on our milk carton model using a sheet of paper, lay the paper over the top of the carton, emulating the bracing using in the photo's, pull the pencils out and puncture the paper and reinsert the pencils back into the carton, then move the paper so that the holes in that paper are moved away from the carton sides and the paper pulls tight across the top of the carton.
Now repeat the lift and you will see that that paper doesn't offer any resistance to the upward motion of the pencils.

The last part of this experiment is placing that paper under the carton, doing what I have already explained, but pulling the paper tight under the carton. If your model is working correctly, the paper should offer resistance to the upward motion of your pencils.

So for a truss to work on the Salisbury, it should be underneath the diff centre and needs not to have the weight or size of those constructions shown in the photo's.
.

[isuzurover]

...

So for a truss to work on the Salisbury, it should be underneath the diff centre and needs not to have the weight or size of those constructions shown in the photo's.
.

Sorry but you are incorrect. A truss on top is just as strong as one on the bottom. Steel has the same strength in tension or compression.

[rick130]

[snip]

So for a truss to work on the Salisbury, it should be underneath the diff centre and needs not to have the weight or size of those constructions shown in the photo's.
.

Yes, a truss works much better in tension, and that's how it's been done for a very long time (I avidly devoured US Off Road magazines as a kid in the seventies and trusses were common on Dana 44's and 60's way back then) but you dramatically reduce the ground clearance which isn't great on a 4wd.
You can make an over the top version work but it must be substantially larger/heavier to have some sort of influence.

[uninformed]

Sorry but you are incorrect. A truss on t
op is just as strong as one on the bottom. Steel has the same strength in tension or compression.

Ben, can you draw a picture of what a good over the top truss would look like on a Sals, taking into consideration the A-frame and having to be between the coil springs.

[uninformed]

Sorry but you are incorrect. A truss on top is just as strong as one on the bottom. Steel has the same strength in tension or compression.

What about the cables on s suspension bridge or in a post tentioned slab....

[isuzurover]

Yes, a truss works much better in tension...

Sorry Rick but you are also wrong. Steel behaves exactly the same in tension and compression, therefore a properly designed truss will be just as strong on either side of the axle.

Of course if you get plastic deformation it may be another matter, but at that point your truss (and axle) have failed.

Serg - yes the a-frame mount is a problem. A truss would need to be designed to run either behind or in front of the a-frame ball joint. In front may have cle3arance issues with the a-arms, Behind may have clearance issues with the fuel tank, though the truss doesn't need to sit further proud than the back of the diff pan, so it should be fine.

edit - no need to extend out further than the coil mounts. As mentioned, sals only ever fail close in - to the centre - e.g. where a md actuator block has been welded on.

[PAT303]

I haven't even looked at costs yet but from other parts we make I could take a guess, depending on how many we make :

ring and pinion £ 225-250
casing £ 200-250
bearings, seal, flange, no more than £ 100

if you want a locker £ 475
if you want HD shafts £ 260

Dave

Dave,is there a reason you don't make 3.54 HD CW&P for the P38?. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

Steel has the same strength in tension or compression.
I must have went to a different school! As design plays a far greater part in steel work than simply adding more material to the cross section.


Sorry but you are incorrect. A truss on top is just as strong as one on the bottom.
I disagree, we are not talking about fabricated building girders here.
The problem here is, where the connection of the tube to the Salisbury's centre housing is, it fails under tension. When a strengthening plate is used under the centre housing and welded to the axle tube just beside the insides of the spring mounts, you form a triangulation on both sides of the diff centre housing. The result is the flat plate is now in tension and the axle tubes are in compression.
.

[Bush65]

Hi Slug_burner

Thanks for finding those photo's, I wanted to keep this in this thread as it relates to the strength of Land Rover diffs in general, (Fifty lashes shall be received by yours truly if I am out of order).
All of those mods are heavy without addressing properly the issue of the tube breaking where it enters the diff centre casting.

I will write this next part as a demonstration for youngsters, so please don't feel annoyed at the simplistic description, instead grab a twelve year old and go through doing the model with him/her.

For way of an illustration, play with a milk carton, a couple of pencils and a sheet of paper.

Lay the carton down, puncture the carton each side with the pencils so the holes are opposite.

Try and lift the carton using a finger under each pencil and the pencil's will bend up, the weakness is the wall of the carton, relate that to the Salisbury where the tubes enter the diff centre housing.

The next thing to try, is to strengthen the joint on our milk carton model using a sheet of paper, lay the paper over the top of the carton, emulating the bracing using in the photo's, pull the pencils out and puncture the paper and reinsert the pencils back into the carton, then move the paper so that the holes in that paper are moved away from the carton sides and the paper pulls tight across the top of the carton.
Now repeat the lift and you will see that that paper doesn't offer any resistance to the upward motion of the pencils.

The last part of this experiment is placing that paper under the carton, doing what I have already explained, but pulling the paper tight under the carton. If your model is working correctly, the paper should offer resistance to the upward motion of your pencils.

So for a truss to work on the Salisbury, it should be underneath the diff centre and needs not to have the weight or size of those constructions shown in the photo's.
.
Sorry, Iv'e got to disagree on most of your post.

[Bush65]

Yes, a truss works much better in tension, and that's how it's been done for a very long time (I avidly devoured US Off Road magazines as a kid in the seventies and trusses were common on Dana 44's and 60's way back then) but you dramatically reduce the ground clearance which isn't great on a 4wd.
You can make an over the top version work but it must be substantially larger/heavier to have some sort of influence.
No problem making a light top version. Although people tend to call these trusses, they are not, so applying concepts for say a gantry or bridge truss is not applicable.

We need to keep stresses well within the level of yield stress with something like this. If less than about 60% yield then compression is fine as long as buckling (this requires simple design detail) is avoided. The old steel structures code (AS1250, before we went to limit state design AS4100) stated that for design, compressive stress could be up to 60% yield and tensile stress up to 75% yield (edit; it's many years since I used AS1250 and I think I should have said 67% not 75% yield for tensile stress).

[Bush65]

From what I have seen of building dana axles in the USA, the tubes are made an shrink fit into the cast housing, then they are plug welded through the hole provided for that purpose.

If all this is done to good standard practice, the tubes won't pull out, If the wall thickness of the tube is sufficient then they wont fail in bending.

Then if the axle will subject to severe abuse (beyond most on this board), the cast housing may become the weak link and a brace and heavy cover can restore the required strength.

[rick130]

Ok, I must be missing something bigtime here.

I know a block (eg. a cube) of steel will carry the same load in compression or tension, however, a rod or tube of a given diameter loaded in tension will carry far greater loads than the same tube in compression, which will buckle at a substantially reduced load, won't it ?

Really rough from a mechanics POV.

A tube in tension will take a load up to its UTS, elastically deform (stretch), if you take the load past that point it will permanently yield/plastically deform, take it further and it will fail.

The same tube in compression will buckle long before its UTS is reached.
The longer the tube, the lower the compressive load it can take.

You have to increase the diameter/cross sectional area of the tube (increase its stiffness in bending) to reduce/eliminate the buckling.

Am I on the right track so far ?

All I know is that when working on race cars that went from pullrod to pushrod suspension with the same leverage ratios the pushrods had to be nearly three times the diameter for the same load or they'd buckle, and sometimes they still did just when hitting a ripple strip, whereas the pullrod cars could clout them all day long.





The old time axle trusses were merely a rod (3/8" or 1/2" ? I can't remember) that was attached from one side, under the diff banjo where it was also attached and connected to the axle tube on the other side.
If you tried the same arrangement over the top of the housing it'd be like pushing string, wouldn't it ?

It'd be a different kettle of fish if you used a single substantial plate as a single web from one side of the axle housing to the other, but how thick a web do you need to stop any buckling ?


[edit] oops, John has answered it before I even posted this.

[justinc]

From what I have seen of building dana axles in the USA, the tubes are made an shrink fit into the cast housing, then they are plug welded through the hole provided for that purpose.

If all this is done to good standard practice, the tubes won't pull out, If the wall thickness of the tube is sufficient then they wont fail in bending.

Then if the axle will subject to severe abuse (beyond most on this board), the cast housing may become the weak link and a brace and heavy cover can restore the required strength.


Correct, I have seen a D44 that had an 'upgrade' to thicker wall tubes for hard offroad use, only to witness it break the cast centre into pieces either side where the tubes go in because there was no flex in the tubes anymore.
An egg on face moment for all involved I reckon :D
Forces have to dissipate somehow/ somewhere, You need to allow them to dissipate along a length of tube, rather than trying to get a piece of brittle cast iron to do that....

JC

[isuzurover]

From what I have seen of building dana axles in the USA, the tubes are made an shrink fit into the cast housing, then they are plug welded through the hole provided for that purpose.

If all this is done to good standard practice, the tubes won't pull out, If the wall thickness of the tube is sufficient then they wont fail in bending.

Then if the axle will subject to severe abuse (beyond most on this board), the cast housing may become the weak link and a brace and heavy cover can restore the required strength.

Thanks John!

You are right - the tubes are a press fit then are plug welded.

As I mentioned, the only failures I have seen is on vehicles with MD lockers fitted, where a crack has propagated from the actuator mounting block (as per pic on previous link - previous page). I assume this is either due to the hole/block/welding(HAZ) creating a stress riser or weak point. This has only been on vehicles which hae done extensive travel heavily loaded on corrugated roads.


I must have went to a different school! As design plays a far greater part in steel work than simply adding more material to the cross section.


I disagree, we are not talking about fabricated building girders here.
The problem here is, where the connection of the tube to the Salisbury's centre housing is, it fails under tension. When a strengthening plate is used under the centre housing and welded to the axle tube just beside the insides of the spring mounts, you form a triangulation on both sides of the diff centre housing. The result is the flat plate is now in tension and the axle tubes are in compression.
.

John explained it better than I can in his posts above.

[ashtrans]

Dave,is there a reason you don't make 3.54 HD CW&P for the P38?. Pat

yes 2 reasons,

1) the offset means you have a thin ring gear, we could I guess get this fatter by using the rover locker which has an additional 5mm offset (distance between ring gear mounting face and pinion centre line)

2) even with different teeth you still have the main problem of the pinion being too short ie the pinion bearings are too close together, these need to come apart to add strength

Dave

[uninformed]

I think im about the dumbest guy in here. But it cant be a clear case of Tension or compression. Ben I think Johns post proves that steel is stronger in tension all be it not much but it is true.

Regarding the Sals housing, you cant just think of it as the wheels pushing the ends of the axle tubes up with the pivot point being the tube to cast center section connection....the coils that are inboard of the wheel are pushing down on the top of the axle tube, so it is now bending. If the truss is on top from inside of coil to inside of coil, would it not be in some tention as it resists the downward force of the coil.

every thing is a compromise, clearance, room, other existing links etc... the racers are lucky, the build the housing, truss it and then add links etc....most run coil overs so this is alot easier to accomidate, especially if they are mounted to a trailing arm.

see attached pic for a real housing :cool:

[isuzurover]

... But it cant be a clear case of Tension or compression. Ben I think Johns post proves that steel is stronger in tension all be it not much but it is true....

No Serg - steel performs the same in tension or compression. And John's post shows that if buckling can be avoided (as would be the case in any proper design) then that holds true for a steel diff bracing structure.

The AS though which John has cited gives a 15% higher safety margin for structures in compression.

For the average backyard fabricator who doesn't have access to FEA, that means that for all practical purposes their (usually overengineered) brace will be just as strong if they weld it to the top or bottom.

In most cases as we have seen in the pics the strength of a brace is limited by the design and other constraints, rather than whetehr it is welded top or bottom of the diff.

[uninformed]

so are you saying that a truss can be designed to work in compression and avoid bucklling and be the same weight as one in tension?

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

Nearly finished cleaning up that limb. Got the sawn up pine on a customers Flat tray Land Rover to dump on the wood pile, whilst all that was going on I had a little think.

Johns post did describe eloquently, that my wayward reasoning could not.

Justin's point that if you make something stronger and in this case, the axle tubes, the failure point moves to the next weakest structure.
I don't particularly want to end up driving something around that is approaching the size and strength of a tank.

So strength within reason and then drive sympathetically.

I can weld a bit, but I don't have the fine touch of a professional, so I would be wary of welding anything to the housing in case I caused distortion.
.

[isuzurover]

so are you saying that a truss can be designed to work in compression and avoid bucklling and be the same weight as one in tension?

For all practical purposes, YES.

The bracing on my front diff is on top, and IMHO it is likely much stronger and lighter than MD's diff laminating. (which was mainly below the centreline of the axle).

If you started with a 130 salisbury and braced it on top (minimally), then I doubt anyone on here could bend or break it.

[uninformed]

For all practical purposes, YES.

The bracing on my front diff is on top, and IMHO it is likely much stronger and lighter than MD's diff laminating. (which was mainly below the centreline of the axle).

If you started with a 130 salisbury and braced it on top (minimally), then I doubt anyone on here could bend or break it.

out of interest, what does below or above axle center line effect?

lets stick to the Sals, the fabricated Rover type housings are a different beast.

I would like to see your or John's design for a Sals. By no way is this a dig or challenge, im want to learn. Im a visual learner. I am still yet to see a top truss on a dana type housing that doesnt weigh 14 million kgs and would actually work for more than just link mounts

[isuzurover]

out of interest, what does below or above axle center line effect?

lets stick to the Sals, the fabricated Rover type housings are a different beast.

I would like to see your or John's design for a Sals. By no way is this a dig or challenge, im want to learn. Im a visual learner. I am still yet to see a top truss on a dana type housing that doesnt weigh 14 million kgs and would actually work for more than just link mounts

Rover or sals or anything else, the principle is the same. The separation between the brace and the axle centreline gives much more strength (compared to tubing internally or plating the underneath that MD used to do).

If I ever decide to brace my sals you will be the first to see pics Serg.

[rick130]

[snip]

I can weld a bit, but I don't have the fine touch of a professional, so I would be wary of welding anything to the housing in case I caused distortion.
.

The only way you can stop distortion is to make a big jig to hold the entire housing (eg. use an RSJ), or do what Maxi Drive used to suggest and chain down the housing to a concrete floor.

I'm not fussed about the strength of my Sals for what I do, and my GVM is pretty much on or over 3000kg constantly (and the axle pads are polished from the bumps stops, front and rear)

The Telstra vehicles that were pulling axle tubes in the Territory were also cracking front diff housings, and the same drivers were cracking 79 Series 'Cruiser front diff housings and chassis's and Patrol chassis's too. ;)

[Bush65]

It is hard to think of any practical examples of trusses that have all members in tension - most have nearly half of the members in compression.

Tensile members don't buckle which is a great advantage allowing smaller sections.

In a truss the tension members are called ties and the compression members struts. Truss members are considered to carry pure tension or compression, unlike flexural members (non-truss) such as beams or columns that carry bending loads.

Usually a truss is designed to use the least amount of steel allowable - to reduce cost. This is done by designing so that where possible the ties carry higher loads and/or the struts are shorter.

Preventing buckling of compression elements often simply requires attention to detail E.g. the dimpling of the holes in the gusset plates used in one of the pics allows light weight construction.

In the discussion here and the example pictured the axle housing, with or without bracing, is a beam. They have tension (mostly) on one side and compression on the other, but this can reverse from normal loading if the diff sits on a rock, so the whole argument about bracing above or below so some element is in tension is not as important as getting the details right.

[n plus one]

Grave dig -any updates to be had?

Would pegging (in combination witiny bits from Ashcrofts) be a sufficient solution for users just looking for a general increase in the robustness of the P38 (i.e. someone like me)

[XSiV]

Grave dig -any updates to be had?

Would pegging (in combination witiny bits from Ashcrofts) be a sufficient solution for users just looking for a general increase in the robustness of the P38 (i.e. someone like me)

I think you will find that the cause of the problem is not the bits in the centre, it's merely a design fault in the P38 housing. That being the pinion shaft is too short and the bearings are too close together (this has been repeated multiple times already).

This design flaw causes the bearings to have too much stress and they flog out. Once the bearings have flogged out, this in turn then allows the pinion a little 'play' and it then flogs itself out on the ring gear. This then causes the failure of the diff. No matter what you did to the internals the problem is still the same, i.e. the bearings on the pinion are too close together.

This is why Dave has come up with a plan to build a new housing to correct the initial problem. Upgrading with HD internals at the same time is simply a smart thing to do while you are at it.

[isuzurover]

Grave dig -any updates to be had?

Would pegging (in combination witiny bits from Ashcrofts) be a sufficient solution for users just looking for a general increase in the robustness of the P38 (i.e. someone like me)

No - pegging doesn't help the pinion bearings being too close together...

[uninformed]

while it wont help the bearings, pegging will help with pinion to ring gear deflection. The bearing spacing is not the only problem, the ring gear is thin and deflects easier than other diffs like the rover type.

I would like to know, on a well serviced diff, how many of these P38 types have "flogged out" the pinion bearings?

[PAT303]

Grave dig -any updates to be had?

Would pegging (in combination witiny bits from Ashcrofts) be a sufficient solution for users just looking for a general increase in the robustness of the P38 (i.e. someone like me)

Simply replace it with a D1 Rover diff with Ashcrofts internals,easy fix. Pat

[uninformed]

Simply replace it with a D1 Rover diff with Ashcrofts internals,easy fix. Pat

While I agree with your thinking, AND I dont want to be the no no police, could there be insurance/rta/dot issues with the axle load rating going from a D1 to a 110/130???

[n plus one]

while it wont help the bearings, pegging will help with pinion to ring gear deflection. The bearing spacing is not the only problem, the ring gear is thin and deflects easier than other diffs like the rover type.

I would like to know, on a well serviced diff, how many of these P38 types have "flogged out" the pinion bearings?

Yep, trying to get a sense of this too, hence the pegging question - i.e. if the bearings aren't a complete disaster, then maybe a bit of ring gear support in combo with a well set up diff would be sufficient?

Personally not very interested in a diff swap unless absolutely necessary.

Although maybe I should just get a plough and be done with it...

[PAT303]

Rover,if your doing the type of off road driving that warrants an upgrade you get over the sals real quick,my Tdi had 255/85's on it,the TDCi has 235's and the 235's had 20mm more clearance under the diff even though the 255's are a much larger dia,like you said the sals is a plough. Pat

[uninformed]

It doesnt take much to shave the bottom of the sals....

[rick130]

It doesnt take much to shave the bottom of the sals....


Yep, and it's dead easy to take 20mm off a Sals and add a HD cover without compromising anything.

If you lot don't play nice I'll be forced to post up another photo of my Brazilian :angel:

[uninformed]

or bust out the checkbook and get a ruffstuff housing made to what ever diff center you want and all the rover fittings

[ashtrans]

like this you mean !!!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/[/IMG]

[08Bender]

D1 and Puma 110 Axle housing same load rating, remember spring mounts are 1/2" closer together on D1 axle.

[uninformed]

like this you mean !!!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/ashtrans/D1400.jpg


:) pretty close (Ruffstuff housings are bloody nice and well designed)

Can you give us some specs?
Material?
tube OD, ID?
Diff center type?

[PAT303]

It doesnt take much to shave the bottom of the sals....

I posted up somewhere about the clearance and the P38 had something like 30mm more clearance over a sals even though it ran 235's and the sals had 255's.There's nothing you can do with a sals unless you run 35's and I'm over all that high lift/big tyres mucho BS. Pat

[uninformed]

I posted up somewhere about the clearance and the P38 had something like 30mm more clearance over a sals even though it ran 235's and the sals had 255's.There's nothing you can do with a sals unless you run 35's and I'm over all that high lift/big tyres mucho BS. Pat

sorry pat, but it is possible to shave the sals. Amount depends on the skillset.

Btw I crawled a hill locked with my sals and 235s that my mate couldnt with his unlocked portals, and yes the sals dragged a little?

Better to have a low diff that works than one that doesnt.

Its a personal choice. I can see your points going to a rover.

lets see what Ashcroft have come up with (Im hoping not a custom center)

[rick130]

I posted up somewhere about the clearance and the P38 had something like 30mm more clearance over a sals even though it ran 235's and the sals had 255's.There's nothing you can do with a sals unless you run 35's and I'm over all that high lift/big tyres mucho BS. Pat

Pat, there's bugger all difference between my Rover front and Sals rear now.
I did measure them both at the time (six-seven years ago) when I cut the bottom off the Sals and IIRC it was 5mm advantage to the Rover ?

I could take that off the Sals pretty easily, just couldn't be bothered now.

[Drover]

So is Ashcrofts working on this new center, as previous chat involving "Ashtrans" seemed to indicate it was just on a wish list and not actually happening.

It would suit me perfectly as I already have Ashcroft half shafts and drive flanges in the rear.

[Scallops]

Just an aside for a moment...I have the very first sold Puma in Brisbane (apparently). When I collected mine, none of the others were available to go, even though they were at the dealer. Austral motors told me that all the new ones, with the exception of mine, had to have a "procedure" done on their diffs. When I asked why mine didn't, they said my diffs (well, my vehicle as per it's VIN) was unaffected by the issue.

Interestingly, I have done 90,000km in mine, many with big loads and offroad, and have had zero diff issues....both still original and going strong.

[Drover]

I have not had any issues either, front and rear still original. Done some big trips all with big loads on board.

I have Ashcrofts half shafts, drive flanges all round and their CV's n the front but the diff are original.

[PAT303]

Pat, there's bugger all difference between my Rover front and Sals rear now.
I did measure them both at the time (six-seven years ago) when I cut the bottom off the Sals and IIRC it was 5mm advantage to the Rover ?

I could take that off the Sals pretty easily, just couldn't be bothered now.

Just measured both,the sals has 30mm less clearance underneath. Pat

[PAT303]

Just an aside for a moment...I have the very first sold Puma in Brisbane (apparently). When I collected mine, none of the others were available to go, even though they were at the dealer. Austral motors told me that all the new ones, with the exception of mine, had to have a "procedure" done on their diffs. When I asked why mine didn't, they said my diffs (well, my vehicle as per it's VIN) was unaffected by the issue.

Interestingly, I have done 90,000km in mine, many with big loads and offroad, and have had zero diff issues....both still original and going strong.

Makes you wonder why all the P38 RR's are driving around without diff changes every six months doesn't it?.There's nothing wrong with the P38 diff,it's the excessive backlash from the factory that causes the trouble. Pat

[uninformed]

Makes you wonder why all the P38 RR's are driving around without diff changes every six months doesn't it?.There's nothing wrong with the P38 diff,it's the excessive backlash from the factory that causes the trouble. Pat

while I agree with you Pat, we cant be 100% sure there hasnt been a material change, some machining changes or small design change (read bear counters) that is also coming into play.....

[uninformed]

Just measured both,the sals has 30mm less clearance underneath. Pat

yep......until you shave it :D

[PAT303]

while I agree with you Pat, we cant be 100% sure there hasnt been a material change, some machining changes or small design change (read bear counters) that is also coming into play.....

It's a set-up problem not a design problem,look on Ashcrofts site at one he has pulled out and look at the CW/P mesh,it's not there,going on from that think how the two work and you'll work out why the bearings flog out so quickly,simply setting the backlash correctly would fix 99% of the problem,why they don't is beyond me. Pat

[newhue]

Hi guys, I've just secured myself a Salisbury out of a 130.
can you help me answer a few questions
How do I shave it? Can I do that?
what needs to be done to fit it onto a Tdci, is it just shorten the tail shaft.
And I would like to put a detroit in it and some HD axels. Besides some new rotors, bearings, and oil seals is there any thing else I should look at.

[goingbush]

what do you mean by 'shave', you could go from this

http://www.offroadcustomcreations.com/images/P1010018.JPG

to this

http://www.offroadcustomcreations.com/images/P1010008.JPG

and even more if you grind the crown wheel.

But why, Ive only ever been stuck on my Salisbury twice, just learn to drive a better path or ontop of the ruts instead of in them, or carry a hiLift jack, you can easily take away 1/2" on a Salisbury with a grinder & without resorting to above surgery so long as you use a heavy duty cover plate like an ARB nodular steel cover.

just grinding the flat bulldozer blade part off makes all the differance sometimes.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/215.jpg

I could probably go an extra 5mm without too much trouble, but really - not an issue.



.

[rick130]

You can take 3/4" easily with only a 4" grinder and hacksaw + the HD cover. (a tin cover will leak, and peel back on the first thing you drag over)
With a 3/4" shave I re-located the bottom bolt as ground up to it and broke through. I made and screwed in a dummy stud, glued in using liquid metal to fill the original bolt hole)

BTW you can do this under the car without removing the housing as Jimbo did in the second thread below.

Grab some 262 Loctite to glue in the drain plug, and I like 518 Loctite to seal the new cover.

As you said, shorten and rebalance the tail shaft, install RTC 3511 hub seals, pull the axle tube seals, Hi-Tough Engineering axles and drive flanges (or equivalent) and you're set.

A couple of threads.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/30332-salisbury-brazilian.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/68612-jimbo110s-budget-salisbury-shave.html

[isuzurover]

Rick has pretty much covered everything.

[Brid]

Just on the diff life feedback question, I haven't had a problem with my 2007 Puma, so I may be one of the lucky ones, and it is still fine with over 200,000kms on the vehicle.

I did a warranty complaint when it was near new, about the hand brake drum being out of round, so the dealers promptly replaced the rear diff, which was running perfectly, and left me with the dodgy hand brake drum. So this diff hasn't done 200,000km, but no reason to suspect it won't either.

[frantic]

Hi guys, I've just secured myself a Salisbury out of a 130.
can you help me answer a few questions
How do I shave it? Can I do that?
what needs to be done to fit it onto a Tdci, is it just shorten the tail shaft.
And I would like to put a detroit in it and some HD axels. Besides some new rotors, bearings, and oil seals is there any thing else I should look at.

I have a 02 def110 with a sal, I put hy-tuff axles and a Detroit from lucky 8 about 2 years ago . The only difference is it can be a bit hoppy in a low speed off camber roundabout . Diff cover and shaving are on my to do list;)

[uninformed]

if it hasnt already been said, most heavy duty, aftermarket covers are actually for a Dana 60. These bolt straight on. If they come supplied with bolts, you will have to replace them with metric. I got my cover from Great Lake offroad in the USA. It is fabbed from mild steel rather than cast. I went this way as if it ever has to be modded/repaired it will be much easier. BTW there is no reduction in strength.

[newhue]

Serge: I spied the cover you have on another thread, and have sent a pic of it to APT fabrication along with pics of Jimbo's budget shave. I think something can come together here with out a great deal of hassle. Kind of like the idea of a flat sliding plain on the bottom of a big beefy sals.

My P38 diff hasn't played up as yet, but it's about the only thing on my Tdci that hasn't. I have only done 60K, but built the car with some long remote trips in mind. The car is at GVM when we do this, and my work has me cart a decent load daily as well. It makes sense to me to replace a generally accepted average design with a tried and tested star. I figure with a remap that disables the EGR and the ignition immobiliser things should be become quite reliable overall.
I will be fitting Ashcroft shafts with the Detroit. Should I be replacing the carrier bearing and thrust washers. I have no idea what they do, just was told I probably should.

[uninformed]

it will be interesting to see what you come up with :). If you get the time check out GLO website. They were great to deal with. Mine has the best MIG welds I have ever seen. (real MIG, not MIG like TIG :mad:)

[uninformed]

your vehicle is pretty new. Unless the Sals is same age and kms, with no abuse (no way) then you may as well rebuild it. Do all the bearings seals etc. That way you know where you stand from the get go. You are going to have it all apart anyway.

[Babs]

Hey Guys,


Is this diff problem still an issue with the 2.2 puma's?

[newhue]

Time will tell Babs if the 2.2's are set up better than the 2.4's. But given yours has a P38 diff in it the same as the 2.4, then yes.

As others have said it's possible to get good life out of a P38. But due to design flaws, if you tow, or drive a lot with weight than it can become problematic.

For me I've spent enough building this thing to be a remote long haul tourer, a few more bucks on bomb proofing the diff ****es me off, but it's a long term keeper.

[Grappler]

My 2.2 130 delivered Feb 202 had the growling rear diff replaced (warranty)after 3000km
This would indicate the problem has not been addreses in the later models

[isuzurover]

Hey Guys,


Is this diff problem still an issue with the 2.2 puma's?

The diff is the same as the 2.4 and P38A, so retains the same inherent problems (See Dave/Ian Ashcroft's (username = Ashtrans) comprehensive post on the topic on here).

[Naks]

The diff is the same as the 2.4 and P38A, so retains the same inherent problems (See Dave/Ian Ashcroft's (username = Ashtrans) comprehensive post on the topic on here).

where? :angel:

[uninformed]

while the design is not the greatest, IMO it seems the biggest problem is the R&P set up from factory. If this is seen to, good oil used and regular maintainence is applied then it should serve most users...

If it makes you warm and fuzzy to change it out, by all means :)

[slug_burner]

where? :angel:

Read back through this thread, about page 4

[isuzurover]

where? :angel:

Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ashtrans+AND+puma+AND+site%3Awww.aulro.com%2Faf vb)

:angel:

[firsttimedefender]

In my old discovery I used some of those teflon additives in the diffs and transfer case (eg Nulon, Repco, etc) and towed a lot, did around 250K before upgrading to PUMA. Now with 70K am contemplating doing the same.
Has anyone used with any appreciable improvement or longevity results? (even anecdotally it seemed to work for the disco as my bro-in-law changed his diffs on similar model Tdi Disco at 150K!)

[rick130]

In my old discovery I used some of those teflon additives in the diffs and transfer case (eg Nulon, Repco, etc) and towed a lot, did around 250K before upgrading to PUMA. Now with 70K am contemplating doing the same.
Has anyone used with any appreciable improvement or longevity results? (even anecdotally it seemed to work for the disco as my bro-in-law changed his diffs on similar model Tdi Disco at 150K!)

Waste of time/money.

Just use a premium quality oil in the first place, it'll probably end up being cheaper.

My Deefer is about to click over 300,000 and apart from the axles, the diff's, bearings, etc are all original.
All premium syn driveline fluids since 76,000km. (Neo, Castrol, Redline, Torco, Motul)

Our Patrol has just clocked 410,000km and everything in the driveline is original, no sounds, clunks, backlash etc and has towed for the majority of its life.
It's used premium syn fluids for the last 300,000km (Castrol) and semi-syn fluids (Fuchs) during the warranty period.

[Trout]

My 2010 90 rear diff has failed after 50,000km. It has been quiet until it started making terminal sounding noises. The 90 has done no hard work, no heavy towing and no significant offroad. The car is stock standard and serviced on the dot by dealer.

Dealer says one of the pins has fallen out. What annoys me most is the dealer implying that it was something I had done to cause this. When I suggested that there were known problems with these diffs I was even more annoyed when he said they had never had any problems with diffs and that they were "bulletproof" :mad: I will wait to see what transpires but after todays discussion I am half expecting them to say they wont fix it under warranty.

They are also saying they think there may be damage to the transfer case as a result of the diff failure and this needs work as well! I find it hard the believe the diff failure would cause damage to transfer case. Driveline has always been a bit noisy so the transfer case issue if there is one is probably an unrelated issue.

Apparently they have the parts in stock (I guess just in case one of the"bulletproof" diffs fail) so hopefully it will get sorted pretty quick.

[FLINTSTONE]

Mate, as you can see this is a known problem, landrover have re-engineered a heap of diffs and will change yours no questions asked if under warranty. The person you were speaking to clearly demonstrating their limited knowledge on this subject and or vehicle type. Find someone worth talking too.

[uninformed]

except for the fact that most of the problems are in the 110,s that run the P38 type diff, the rear diff in the 90 is different and is Rover type, these are much less likely to fail. Plus when you upgrade them to Locker, shafts ect they can handle a fair bit of abuse on 32/33's

[Trout]

My puma 90 is back on the road again. Complete new diff installed under warranty :)

No arguments needed in the end. Hopefully this one survives more than 50k. Given that it was one of the pins falling out and that it is a different diff to the 110 pumas hopefully it will be a one off incident.

[justinc]

had a pin almost fall out on a 30k old puma 130 front diff, same as a 90 rear diff.

replaced under warranty as soon as customer felt the horrendous backlash, and got me to take a squiz through the fill hole with a torch....:o.

just what has happened to quality control???? its not uncommon to hear this story across most manufacturers now, toyota, nissan etc included.:(

jc

[clubagreenie]

just what has happened to quality control????


Accountants

[newhue]

Accountants

you'd think through, between all the associated cost of building, particularly staff; and then the cost of fixing, and fixing, and fixing, and fixing after the sale would out weigh profits. That is unless it cost them 10K to build a car they then sell for 60K.

For interest I might see if the dealer is willing to give me a total cost of the warranty work to date. What they have actually handed LR to pay. Don't think I'll get very far but don't wish to waste people time for something that doesn't matter either.

[JDNSW]

you'd think through, between all the associated cost of building, particularly staff; and then the cost of fixing, and fixing, and fixing, and fixing after the sale would out weigh profits. That is unless it cost them 10K to build a car they then sell for 60K.
.....

I suspect that the current situation is something like this - "Salisbury axles have become unavailable - we have to find a replacement. Luckily we have one alreay in production. The P38A has a diff that is rated to handle this power and torque, and is trouble free in the P38A, which has a lot more power (not used all that much offroad or for towing, and maximum weight is less, but should be OK as a stopgap - the Defender will be replaced in a couple of years anyway). "

John

[pawl]

Hmmm after reading this thread and another about puma reliability I think I will pass on an 09 Defender with less than 30,000kms on I was interested in. It appears to me, this just isn't an isolated problem, it is very common and once they are out of the warranty period it is time to off load it. Very disappointing:(

[djam1]

Pawl
If you like, want, need the vehicle buy it, if the worst you have to do through the course of ownership is replace the diff with something more suitable you are a lucky man.

Hmmm after reading this thread and another about puma reliability I think I will pass on an 09 Defender with less than 30,000kms on I was interested in. It appears to me, this just isn't an isolated problem, it is very common and once they are out of the warranty period it is time to off load it. Very disappointing:(

[nugge t]

2010 110 with 55,000

No problems with diffs and I certainly wouldn't say I have nursed them especially on my last couple of trips.

[rick130]

I suspect that the current situation is something like this - "Salisbury axles have become unavailable - we have to find a replacement. Luckily we have one alreay in production. The P38A has a diff that is rated to handle this power and torque, and is trouble free in the P38A, which has a lot more power (not used all that much offroad or for towing, and maximum weight is less, but should be OK as a stopgap - the Defender will be replaced in a couple of years anyway). "

John

John, I actually think it was a case of the P38 style rear diff is what was fitted to the UK MoD XD Wolf's (as they can be braced/gusseted/trussed more easily to cope with overloading than a Sals) so it made sense for Land Rover to use that assembly across the board to save costs.

There was talk at one stage that the MoD may have stipulated the same CWP front and rear too for supply/servicing in the field, but I'm not sure if that's correct and the XD's use P38 style front diffs or it was just internet conjecture.

[n plus one]

2010 110 with 55,000

No problems with diffs and I certainly wouldn't say I have nursed them especially on my last couple of trips.

I'll see your 55k on a 10 and raise you 85k on a 09 :p

No diff dramas with mine either - and that includes a reasonable amount of heavily laden towing (20k) of which 5k was on corrugated dirt.

Having said that, mine has had a new rear centre (under warranty), which was changed out due to misdiagnose half shaft wear (i.e. the diff had no issues at all - lol) and I still intend to upgrade to something tougher (likely Ashcroft) in the future.

[newhue]

Well that's makes me piggy in the middle. 2010 with 70K with no problems. But given what I now know I sold the P38 locker and started building a Sals with a Detroit to replace the original. I originally bought the locker thinking it would solve the diffs issues, but depending on use perhaps not.
I hope, and no paying out here, cause I truly do, for those that have had no issues with their P38 that it keeps going as it should. But for me the $2000 to swap it over is great piece of mind when out in the sticks. Considering what I have spent already, and the potential cost of recovery, it's neither here nor there.

[sashadidi]

Hmmm after reading this thread and another about puma reliability I think I will pass on an 09 Defender with less than 30,000kms on I was interested in. It appears to me, this just isn't an isolated problem, it is very common and once they are out of the warranty period it is time to off load it. Very disappointing:(

Just find a diff specialist who knows what he is doing and can set it up right for you and you will be OK .

[justinc]

I disagree. They are not up to the task at all. Structurally the banjo housing when braced seems to be a winner as they flex better than a Sals, but the centre leaves a lot to be desired. Either fit a Rover housing and upgraded rover centre (ARB, Ashcroft etc) and some decent axles , or a Sals and you will be fine.

I have seen quite a few P38 diffs in Defenders over the years last OK, but me personally? I wouldn't rely on it at all. Even locked ,and 4 pin etc they still have that weak crownwheel to pinion design.

JC

[uninformed]

some info I stumbled across on another 4x4 forum...the big dogs putting their "Built" diffs through hell (think D60 and 14b), some have found that ring gear failure was not due to the pinion moving as first thought, but the carrier actually flexing...

Now I know this is not apples to apples, but it could be an issue???

In NO WAY am I defending the P38 diff, but really for most, a P38 diff with ashcroft center and set up correctly will probably give many years of trouble free service.

I wouldnt be suprised if Ashcroft are working on a better R+P as the numbers of these diffs increase with LR sales???

Sals have there cons also...

[n plus one]

I disagree. They are not up to the task at all. Structurally the banjo housing when braced seems to be a winner as they flex better than a Sals, but the centre leaves a lot to be desired. Either fit a Rover housing and upgraded rover centre (ARB, Ashcroft etc) and some decent axles , or a Sals and you will be fine.

I have seen quite a few P38 diffs in Defenders over the years last OK, but me personally? I wouldn't rely on it at all. Even locked ,and 4 pin etc they still have that weak crownwheel to pinion design.

JC

Until Ashcroft release their replacement centre...

Ahem, cough...

[rick130]

some info I stumbled across on another 4x4 forum...the big dogs putting their "Built" diffs through hell (think D60 and 14b), some have found that ring gear failure was not due to the pinion moving as first thought, but the carrier actually flexing...

[snip]


Which is what diff pegging stops ;)

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/images/uploads/pegin1.jpg (image pinched from Ashcrofts website. Hopefully Ian and Dave don't mind :angel:)


Sals have there cons also...Scurrilous rumour put about by rear Rover and P38 type diff people who merely suffer diff envy :p

[pannawonica]

Ashcroft Force 9, when fitted no more problem:D. However there is a position for a Jack Mac style upgrade. Part of the issue is the centre spiral non hypoid design, however the distance between the pinion support bearings leaves a lot to be desired. Dave Ashcroft has stated before that the Sals has a bit of a weight problem. I clearly know what I will do if I have a drama out of warranty, I just do not like going back.:BigThumb:

[Slunnie]

I'd just replace the P38 diff assy with a Rover one.

[BlueWagon]

I'll see your 55k on a 10 and raise you 85k on a 09 :p

No diff dramas with mine either - and that includes a reasonable amount of heavily laden towing (20k) of which 5k was on corrugated dirt.

Having said that, mine has had a new rear centre (under warranty), which was changed out due to misdiagnose half shaft wear (i.e. the diff had no issues at all - lol) and I still intend to upgrade to something tougher (likely Ashcroft) in the future.

Well I beg to differ

Strike one ...TD5 Defender MY03 110 wagon front diff pinion bearing collapsed at 119429 km in July 08 after four and a half years and cost me $2k at the dealer to fix it.

OK ...didn't like that, so figured I would take out the next lease for 4 years instead of 5 years. Figured I should be OK for one year out of warranty without any major costs. Didn't want to do a 3 year lease as I would lose too much money on resale with all the accessories fitted...plus it takes about a year to get the various accessories fitted and sorted.

Strike two ...MY09 Puma 110 wagon rear diff failure requiring complete replacement in September 2012 at 89366 km and 6 mths out of warranty. Cost = $4000.35 !!!

Both vehicles had been serviced every 10,000 km at the LR dealership.

The Puma had done very little towing and had the rear diff pinion flange seal replaced under warranty 12 months earlier.

For some reason I have just ordered a MY13 Puma 110 but wiil be looking at getting my servicing and warranty work done elsewhere than LR dealer in future and getting the diffs specifically checked and documented just before the end of 3 years.

I find it interesting that I previously had a County 110 V8 for 17 years and being young and stupid thrashed the **** out of it, broke engine mounts, broke shockers, bent the front axle and then got a HD reinforced one installed so I could carry on being stupid, wore out a Fairey overdrive but not a single problem with the diffs and sold it with the original diffs.

I love the defender and it is becoming easier to use and drive but it would appear to me that it is becoming frailer with issues around the longevity of components.

Mark

[newhue]

One thing for sure Ashcroft are not making an air locker for a sals. I lived in hope after it was thrashed out on here somewhere a while ago, but na

[uninformed]

One thing for sure Ashcroft are not making an air locker for a sals. I lived in hope after it was thrashed out on here somewhere a while ago, but na

Seems odd when they have more potential to tap into the USA D60 market...

[newhue]

Seems odd when they have more potential to tap into the USA D60 market...

Let alone the number of series and defenders already made that have a Salisbury. I would have thought it would be a great opportunity. I guess ARB and Eaton have it covered. Ashcroft would have an idea through enquiries if its viable. Seems not.

[rick130]

One thing for sure Ashcroft are not making an air locker for a sals. I lived in hope after it was thrashed out on here somewhere a while ago, but na


TJM definitely have stock of their Pro-Locker (nee Jack McNamara) for the Sals.

I asked a few weeks back when driving past a TJM store and they rang back the following week to confirm it was available and in stock at the wharehouse.
Just a shame list price is $1350 (incl.), but you won't find a better design.

[rick130]

[snip]
Dave Ashcroft has stated before that the Sals has a bit of a weight problem.
[snip]


A D60 is worse, I killed my back a very long time ago lifting and moving one.

[Slunnie]

A D60 is worse, I killed my back a very long time ago lifting and moving one.
Jeez and everybody laughed when I just about pooped a hernia trying to lift a Series Salisbury!

[justinc]

Looking at an OKA yesterday, D70 rear diff...35 spline full floater.....:cool:

VERY HEAVY THOUGH. Pallet jack would be req me thinks :o

JC

[uninformed]

Looking at an OKA yesterday, D70 rear diff...35 spline full floater.....:cool:

VERY HEAVY THOUGH. Pallet jack would be req me thinks :o

JC

Why in heck, if going custom, would you pursue a massive cast boat anchor??? I'd be going aftermarket housing built ford 9 ...you can even go up to 40 spline ;-)

[ashtrans]

Hi all,

Good to see there is still interest in this thread as we are getting close to having a diff ready for testing,

The new hypoid ring and pinion is made, 20 sets, crown wheel looks normal, pinion is huge !

Diff housing is drawn, pattern made and 2 prototypes have been cast and are awaiting machining now,

These will use our air locker and HD 24 spline halfshafts,

Will post up some photos once the housings are machined,

Dave

[justinc]

Why in heck, if going custom, would you pursue a massive cast boat anchor??? I'd be going aftermarket housing built ford 9 ...you can even go up to 40 spline ;-)

Serge, I was in no way advocating fitting one of these, unless 40"tyres are planned...:cool::twisted: These trucks are pretty heavy...

Just noting the size of them; even they have issues too apparently. a pair of D80 units :o are being about to be trialed in a couple of OKA now, Cummins 6BT and Allison1000 in front of them, and 40"tyres....

JC

[rick130]

Jeez and everybody laughed when I just about pooped a hernia trying to lift a Series Salisbury!

And mine was a big eight stud for duallies, full floater out our full size Jeep.

It wasn't a Jeep rear end, it had been swapped before Dad bought the Jeep, we think it may have been out of a Dodge or Inter, all I know it was ****** heavy :eek:

When I moved house in '96 I had a few different CWP's of various ratios and no longer had the Jeep so they all went to Sim's, then in '01 I bought a Deefer with a Sals......:(

[Slunnie]

And mine was a big eight stud for duallies, full floater out our full size Jeep.

It wasn't a Jeep rear end, it had been swapped before Dad bought the Jeep, we think it may have been out of a Dodge or Inter, all I know it was ****** heavy :eek:

When I moved house in '96 I had a few different CWP's of various ratios and no longer had the Jeep so they all went to Sim's, then in '01 I bought a Deefer with a Sals......:(

It's incurable, they now come to you. Next you'll be putting drop boxes on them and steering knuckles onto rear axles for extra track width.

[Slunnie]

Hi all,

Good to see there is still interest in this thread as we are getting close to having a diff ready for testing,

The new hypoid ring and pinion is made, 20 sets, crown wheel looks normal, pinion is huge !

Diff housing is drawn, pattern made and 2 prototypes have been cast and are awaiting machining now,

These will use our air locker and HD 24 spline halfshafts,

Will post up some photos once the housings are machined,

Dave
What diff is this?

[rick130]

What diff is this?

I've often thought D44 CWP's would make a good base to cast a drop in centre around.
Plenty of options for ratios and availability of good quality CWP's.

[ashtrans]

What diff is this?

We are making a HD rear replacement diff unit to fit in place of the later P38 type 110 unit,

Dave

[rick130]

It's incurable, they now come to you. Next you'll be putting drop boxes on them and steering knuckles onto rear axles for extra track width.


Naa, getting too old and cantankerous and hate getting my hands dirty these days, just a capable tourer is the aim now :)

Part fixed the track/steering issue of a 130 with Serg's Mach V's :D

[n plus one]

We are making a HD rear replacement diff unit to fit in place of the later P38 type 110 unit,

Dave

Hurry up dammit - I'm desperate to get rid of all this money I have. It's such a burden...:D

[uninformed]

Hi all,

Good to see there is still interest in this thread as we are getting close to having a diff ready for testing,

The new hypoid ring and pinion is made, 20 sets, crown wheel looks normal, pinion is huge !

Diff housing is drawn, pattern made and 2 prototypes have been cast and are awaiting machining now,

These will use our air locker and HD 24 spline halfshafts,

Will post up some photos once the housings are machined,

Dave

Hi Dave, will this share the R&P from your force 9?

Since it is rear application only, did you consider making a new cast center to adapt ford 9inch gear sets so more availablility of R&P would be there?

Best of luck with it
Serg

[justinc]

And mine was a big eight stud for duallies, full floater out our full size Jeep.

It wasn't a Jeep rear end, it had been swapped before Dad bought the Jeep, we think it may have been out of a Dodge or Inter, all I know it was ****** heavy :eek:

When I moved house in '96 I had a few different CWP's of various ratios and no longer had the Jeep so they all went to Sim's, then in '01 I bought a Deefer with a Sals......:(

Jeep J20 4x4 have a full floater 8 stud D60.

JC

[ashtrans]

Hi Dave, will this share the R&P from your force 9?

Since it is rear application only, did you consider making a new cast center to adapt ford 9inch gear sets so more availablility of R&P would be there?

Best of luck with it
Serg

Hi Serg,

No it's a different R&P , the F9 is a high pinion and would not let us use our existing rover locker,

Also the F9 casing has clearance issues on a stock vehicle,

This new diff will take our stock rover air locker and be 3.54 ratio, ie a bolt in upgrade but will require the prop to be shortened a little,

Dave

[uninformed]

Serge, I was in no way advocating fitting one of these, unless 40"tyres are planned...:cool::twisted: These trucks are pretty heavy...

Just noting the size of them; even they have issues too apparently. a pair of D80 units :o are being about to be trialed in a couple of OKA now, Cummins 6BT and Allison1000 in front of them, and 40"tyres....

JC

when you say "these trucks", do you mean our LR's or the Oka's?

A well built Ford 9 in a good housing can cope with some serious abuse...more than that you can step up to the 10inch Trophy Truck R+P...

Ruffstuff specialties in the USA are making fabbed housings for both the D60 and 14b, I believe there are 2 companies making drop out thirds for the 14b and one (Jratoffroad) for the D60 (called sixty9)

There is one guy on Pirate who builds alot of big hp (1000+) axles for mud racers and pullers. He believe that even though the 14b has the extra pinion support like the Ford 9, that the gear design in the D80 is superior..

Since the P38 housing is to be retained for the benfit of the owner (and probably nothing wrong with it), IMO it would be nice to see a custom cast third that uses some already common gearsets...but the space/size obviously dictates that...

[uninformed]

Hi Serg,

No it's a different R&P , the F9 is a high pinion and would not let us use our existing rover locker,

Also the F9 casing has clearance issues on a stock vehicle,

This new diff will take our stock rover air locker and be 3.54 ratio, ie a bolt in upgrade but will require the prop to be shortened a little,

Dave

sounds good, I take it the ring gear is thicker than LR's offering in the P38?

[Slunnie]

I've often thought D44 CWP's would make a good base to cast a drop in centre around.
Plenty of options for ratios and availability of good quality CWP's.
I agree. 8" hypoid?

[isuzurover]

I agree. 8" hypoid?

The toyota is an 8" hypoid. AFAIK the D44 is 8.75".

[justinc]

when you say "these trucks", do you mean our LR's or the Oka's?

A well built Ford 9 in a good housing can cope with some serious abuse...more than that you can step up to the 10inch Trophy Truck R+P...

Ruffstuff specialties in the USA are making fabbed housings for both the D60 and 14b, I believe there are 2 companies making drop out thirds for the 14b and one (Jratoffroad) for the D60 (called sixty9)

There is one guy on Pirate who builds alot of big hp (1000+) axles for mud racers and pullers. He believe that even though the 14b has the extra pinion support like the Ford 9, that the gear design in the D80 is superior..

Since the P38 housing is to be retained for the benfit of the owner (and probably nothing wrong with it), IMO it would be nice to see a custom cast third that uses some already common gearsets...but the space/size obviously dictates that...

OKAs Serge, OKAs...:D

We were tempted by one a few years back for a camping/ touring rig, but just a little TOO big for us as the tourer would also have to be a DD.
Great idea, but a few drivetrain changes would be a good improvement...

JC

[Slunnie]

The toyota is an 8" hypoid. AFAIK the D44 is 8.75".

You're right, I was thinking it was the same CW diameter as Rover, rather than 8"

[rick130]

Jeep J20 4x4 have a full floater 8 stud D60.

JC

It was a 1970 J3000, the beefiest J Series made at the time, equivalent to the later J20.

We always assumed the rear end wasn't 'correct' as the front end used the standard Jeep 5 stud hubs. I had genuine service manuals too (unfortunately lost) which may have verified that (?)

We were a Jeep household, Dad had a Wagoneer and the J3000 (which I later inherited and used as a service van :D) and I had a CJ-6.

He still hasn't properly forgiven me for going 'Pommy' :angel:

[justinc]

Ha, don't I have some Jeep stories to tell....especially relating to Jeep vs rover...:D

Anyway, if it was a J3000 then I reckon someone swapped out the front axle. IIRC they were a D44 and 8 stud with huge brakes etc. Really overkill stuff.


( Pssst, I owned a 4x4 J20 for a few minutes, I don't like to tell people this, so keep it to yourself Rick...)

JC

[rick130]

Naa, it was a genuine front end.

This one had a Rockwell Standard beam axle (2wd :o)

A brace of them were brought in for a mine contract, so the old fella at Stokoe Motors in Melbourne told me. (edit: this was back in the eighties)
I tried getting a kingpin kit and he wouldn't believe me it was 2wd until I told him which axle and quoted the model and serial, then all the info came tumbling out :)
He also had the kingpin kit, part of the spares package imported to support them.

I later fitted a D44 I had underneath her.

The old T98a Warner 'box had a near 7:1 first gear, real crawler stuff :D

[justinc]

Naa, it was a genuine front end.

This one had a Rockwell Standard beam axle (2wd :o)

A brace of them were brought in for a mine contract, so the old fella at Stokoe Motors in Melbourne told me. (edit: this was back in the eighties)
I tried getting a kingpin kit and he wouldn't believe me it was 2wd until I told him which axle and quoted the model and serial, then all the info came tumbling out :)
He also had the kingpin kit, part of the spares package imported to support them.

I later fitted a D44 I had underneath her.

The old T98a Warner 'box had a near 7:1 first gear, real crawler stuff :D


Ah, sorry I thought it was an original 4x4 J3000.

My bad.

Still a big ugly yankee truck, though:p

JC

[rick130]

[snip]

Still a big ugly yankee truck, though:p

JC

Ha.

I still really like them :angel:

[roley18]

Hi Serg,

No it's a different R&P , the F9 is a high pinion and would not let us use our existing rover locker,

Also the F9 casing has clearance issues on a stock vehicle,

This new diff will take our stock rover air locker and be 3.54 ratio, ie a bolt in upgrade but will require the prop to be shortened a little,

Dave

Dave,

This sounds very promising, I'll certainly be following with interest.

So apart from the shortened prop shaft there is a new pinion housing and all new internals including your HD half shafts ? Will your limited slip ATB be able to be used ?

Dirk.....

[ashtrans]

Dave,

This sounds very promising, I'll certainly be following with interest.

So apart from the shortened prop shaft there is a new pinion housing and all new internals including your HD half shafts ? Will your limited slip ATB be able to be used ?

Dirk.....

Yes, new housing, new ring and pinion, takes stock rover diff bearings, stock seal and flange, uses rover (non P38) diff centre, locker , ATB, whatever, but with larger crown wheel bolts so the 10 holes will need drilling out to suit,

HD shafts are optional,

Dave

[ashtrans]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1070.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/217.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/218.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1069.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/219.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/220.jpg

[Slunnie]

Yes, new housing, new ring and pinion, takes stock rover diff bearings, stock seal and flange, uses rover (non P38) diff centre, locker , ATB, whatever, but with larger crown wheel bolts so the 10 holes will need drilling out to suit,

HD shafts are optional,

Dave
Dave what is the design based on? eg D44 etc? Is it also a low or high pinion?

[ashtrans]

Dave what is the design based on? eg D44 etc? Is it also a low or high pinion? Actually the CW/P look so very very similar to the Toyota 8" units if they are not.

Hi, it's not really based on anything, just to our design,

It's a low pinion,

They are a good material, plenty of hypoid offset (1.5") means more teeth in contact , chunky teeth and bearing are further apart than the P38 like the rover,

Should be quite strong,

Dave

[Slunnie]

Thanks Dave, I really love the work you're doing with Land Rovers - such an innovator.

[Slunnie]

Just as I think it through, it really sounds like its going to be an excellent diff, like really strong compared to Rover and beyond that of those Toy 8" conversions too.

If you don't mind me asking:

Is this setup that you're developing able to be used in front applications, so provides clearance for the tie rod also or has it been designed as purely a HD rear diff option?

You were saying previously that it accepts other Rover type hemispheres - eg old style ARB, Maxi etc with holes drilled out to a larger dia.

Does the pinion use Rover 4 bolt or 3 bolt flanges.

Which ratios do you expect to be available?

Is this something suitable for upgrading half shafts to Toy 30 spline, D60 35 spline if clearance etc?

Is it suitable for Rover housings also or only P38 type?

Sorry for all of the questions, I just think this is such a great development for LandRovers.