130 tubed wheels / tubeless tyres?

[The Couch]

Gday again, maybe a really stupid question but i hear there is no such thing.
I am currently looking for a 2nd spare rim for my 130, when looking at the existing rims they say tubed, but the BFG tyres say tubeless:confused:

Please assist

[Don 130]

130's are supplied new with 'tube only' (Part no. ANR5593)rims but you can buy the same rim marked 'tubeless'( Pt#ANR4583)as well. You may have insurance issues in the event of a crash if you use your 'tube only' rims without a tube, but I hear some people claim to have succesfully done so. I believe import is the way if you want a set of tubeless rims.
Don.

[The Couch]

Thanks Don, so it looks as though i could buy either of the rims and fit a tubed tyre without compatibility issues only potential insurance issues.

Cheers

[The Couch]

oops i mean tubless tyre!

[Benz]

think you will find there will still be a tube in there.

[The Couch]

I have texted the previous owner and asked the question, will let you know.

Thanks

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Originally (in the 1960s) tubeless tyres were fitted to standard rims, some manufacturers included a hump on the rim to prevent the bead slipping off and breaking the seal in a puncture situation, the valve stem hole size also reduced. These were termed "safety rims" which is now synonymous with "tubeless rims".

Tyres meant to be used with a tube have a smooth inside to prevent chaffing of the tube.

Tubeless tyres are left rough inside (aren't smoothed) and therefore have a tendency to chaff the tube reducing the tubes life. Also if the inside of the valve stem hole in the rim is rusty (very common when tubes are used) the tubeless valve stem may not seal on the rim.

Tubed tyres are a rare commodity these days so the only answers are to either use the tyres tubless on the standard rim or use a good quality (either Michelin or Bridgestone) tube with the tubeless tyre.

You can tell if there is a tube, as you can see the valve stem poking through the edges of the valve hole, and can push the valve stem in and out a little.

A tubeless valve stem bulges over the edges of the hole to make a seal and you can't move the stem in and out.

BTW: be aware that there are two offsets in the 130 rims, all are 6.5". The current one has a positive offset and the early ones have a negative offset.

[juddy]

130's are supplied new with 'tube only' (Part no. ANR5593)rims but you can buy the same rim marked 'tubeless'( Pt#ANR4583)as well. You may have insurance issues in the event of a crash if you use your 'tube only' rims without a tube, but I hear some people claim to have succesfully done so. I believe import is the way if you want a set of tubeless rims.
Don.

Up until the 2012 model year the 130 came standard with Tubless HD Rims, no idea why they have changed again. You cant even option the Rims..

[The Couch]

Well well, after a quick inspection it seems that i can see the valve protruding through the rim and can push the valve in a liitle, so there is a tube in there!!

Ok, so without really understanding the for's or against.........is this a good thing or a bad thing to have for touring ie ease of repair / punture resistance??

Cheers

[JDNSW]

Well well, after a quick inspection it seems that i can see the valve protruding through the rim and can push the valve in a liitle, so there is a tube in there!!

Ok, so without really understanding the for's or against.........is this a good thing or a bad thing to have for touring ie ease of repair / punture resistance??

Cheers

Very broad answer - tubed tyres are more likely to get punctures, but tubeless tyres are more likely to leak due to rim damage or rust. Which is easier to repair depends on the nature of the repair and what equipment you have. As Diana comments, tubeless tyres with tubes are very likely to develop leaks.

John

[86mud]

I have been running 235/85 BFG AT's tubelss tyres on my standard 130 wolf "tubed" rims for 3 years now and never had an issue....well, 2 out of the 8 that I have do leak slowly and I suspect it is from rust around the valve stem.

Admittedly, I have never gone to low pressures so I can not comment on the issues of rolling beads.

I am currently looking at changing tyres to eaither a 255 or a 285, but I am torn....

Cheers
Andrew

[towe0609]

I was of the understanding, at least for td5 130's, that tubed rims was standard issue.

My experience has been that tyre retailers refuse to fit a tubeless tyre to a tubed rim without a tube. That is not to say that some won't do it, and I have not hunted around to find someone who will.

[rick130]

I have been running 235/85 BFG AT's tubelss tyres on my standard 130 wolf "tubed" rims for 3 years now and never had an issue....well, 2 out of the 8 that I have do leak slowly and I suspect it is from rust around the valve stem.

Admittedly, I have never gone to low pressures so I can not comment on the issues of rolling beads.

I am currently looking at changing tyres to eaither a 255 or a 285, but I am torn....

Cheers
Andrew

Sssh, you'll restart the tube wars all over again :eek:


I was of the understanding, at least for td5 130's, that tubed rims was standard issue.

My experience has been that tyre retailers refuse to fit a tubeless tyre to a tubed rim without a tube. That is not to say that some won't do it, and I have not hunted around to find someone who will.

I had a tyre service suggest to me to do that very thing when I rolled a tyre off the rim after a puncture when running tubes, (and the tubes were pretty much welded to the tyres) and have several different tyre services mount new tyres in the same manner since.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If you have tubes in a tyre and plan to deflate tyres for sand work, firstly get a good brand tube, secondly get 1 size smaller tube i.e. 6.50-7.00 tube in a 7.50 tyre (sorry it's less confusing using the old tyre sizes) and don't go as low in pressure as you may have done in a tubeless tyre.

If you do use the smaller tube it is less likely to get pinched running low pressures.

[roverrescue]

Rick,
Its been ages since the 'tubewars' I vote we arc it up again...

Coming from another 130 owner running tyres on rims with a simple misprint on them - the factory just left four letters off the word 'tube'.

No way Im gonna change doing what works perfectly well from 50psi down to 15psi - on all surfaces. Compared to running stinking tubes that slow leak every second week.

S

[rick130]

[snip]

BTW: be aware that there are two offsets in the 130 rims, all are 6.5". The current one has a positive offset and the early ones have a negative offset.

Are you sure ?

That's the first I've heard of it, I thought they were all 20.6mm positive offset ?

If they were 0 or negative offset wouldn't the tyres be outside the flares ?

The earlier type 130 rims look like they have heaps of offset, but I think it's an optical illusion due to the rim construction.

Damn, I had the opportunity to measure some a few weeks back and didn't :(

[juddy]

The Current 130 Rims ( really Just Land Rover Heavy Duty Rims ) are 16×6.5 inches

Then theres the 1 ton Heavy Duty Rims

130 F/C 2A/2B AND 109 1 TON 6.5 X 16 20.6MM INSET (ANR1534PM)

Theres also this one fitted to Land Rover 110/90.

ROAD WHEEL WELDED TUBE TYPE 5.5F X 16 X 33MM INSET (ANR4636PM)

569203 are also 2b FC Rims size is 6.5" x 16" x 1mm outset. but the 2b was also fitted with 7.50X16 tyres on 5.5 rims. Then some would say that HCB ANGUS and CARMICHEL Fire Engines were fitted with a Rim with more offset than the standard 2b rim.



So many combinations ...theres also one specific to the 127 Rapier... off set wise that is...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Are you sure ?

That's the first I've heard of it, I thought they were all 20.6mm positive offset ?

If they were 0 or negative offset wouldn't the tyres be outside the flares ?

The earlier type 130 rims look like they have heaps of offset, but I think it's an optical illusion due to the rim construction.

Damn, I had the opportunity to measure some a few weeks back and didn't :(In my diagramme read "inset" for negative offset and "outset" for positive offset.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/495.jpg

If you look at the original 130 rims ANR15334 they resemble the late SIIB 569203 rims although the bead area is about 2 1/2" where on the 569203 rim the same area is 3".

The late 130 rims have the rim centre reversed and have a positive offset.

The information on the actual offset on the 130 rims was provided by others, so now I'm going to have to measure the rims directly to check.

[rick130]

Diana, the current style 130 rim has an offset of 20.6mm positive.

It's stamped on the rims and I've measured it to confirm.
This means that the rim centreline is 20.6mm outside of the mounting face, or to put it another way, this particular rim has 103mm of backspace, ie. if you lay a straight edge across the back of the rim and measure to the mounting face it's 103mm.

As you know, standard 110 rims have a positive offset of 33mm (as does the Disco I) regardless of whether they are the 5.5" or 7" rim.
On the 5.5" rim the backspace should be 102.85mm, (I'll drag a 5.5" rim out of the shed and confirm this later) and the 7" rim should have 122mm of backspace. (this is why you lose steering lock with the wider rim unless you reverse the centres)

Positive offset means the rim centreline is inside of the mounting face, negative offset is obviously the other way around. (it can get confusing)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/855.jpg



The two types of 130 rims you've drawn do indeed appear to look like that, I was comparing my rims to a '95 the other week but was sidetracked and didn't get the ruler and verniers out.
(The '95 was in for a service and I'd become the LR service adviser for the local tyre service. :angel: )

I think the later style centre has more outward curvature giving the impression it has less offset than the earlier rim, but if the earlier rims were 20.6mm negative offset they would give a track increase of 80mm over later rims, and that's up in 6x6 wide track territory.
Zero offset would yield a 41mm track increase, etc.

[123rover50]

I am confused. In the diagram it shows positive offset with the centreline inside or brake side of mounting face.

[rick130]

I am confused. In the diagram it shows positive offset with the centreline inside or brake side of mounting face.


You're right, I wrote it wrong on the line above the diagram.

I had it right way round in the first paragraph :angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana, the current style 130 rim has an offset of 20.6mm positive.

...Rick I am well aware about the differences between negative and positive offset.

While I ackowledged (above) that the measurement of the rims in question may be incorrect, the diagramme itself is not incorrect, and it is not an optical illusion because of the different shape of the centre pressing.

We may find that the current ANR5593 rim has a 20.6mm positive offset, however the early ones I am talking about have either a negative offset, which in consideration may be small or indeed or possibly neutral offset. They may even be 120 rims rather than 130 rims.

As I said, now I have to go and measure all the rims and re-do the diagramme.

BTW the series rims where outset/inset is mentioned, this information comes directly from the Land Rover OEM parts catalogues.

Diana

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

P.S. I can not rescind the photobucket image ATM because my employer has upgraded the browser on my machine and the Photobucket log in screen is filtered.

[rick130]

Diana, I wasn't trying to teach you to suck eggs, the diagram was more for those who don't know or get confused (me half the time)

When you say early, are you talking 127 early, or Tdi 130 early ?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Rick

I'm not sure because I have seen and actually owned some of the early rims but not on the original vehicle. In fact three of them were fitted to my SIIB when purchased in Tasmania.

So I am tending to the belief that they may have been the 120 and very early 200TDi 127/130.

They are a trick because they look so similar to the SIIB 569203 rims, but have an offset closer to the 543384 SIIA F/C rims.

[rick130]

Diana, I'm not sure if you've seen JB's list at all or if it even adds to your info, but I only just found it today, having known of his manual gearbox oil and gearing charts for years.

Land Rover Wheel Specification (http://www.red90.ca/rovers/roverwheels.html)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana, I'm not sure if you've seen JB's list at all or if it even adds to your info, but I only just found it today, having known of his manual gearbox oil and gearing charts for years.

Land Rover Wheel Specification (http://www.red90.ca/rovers/roverwheels.html)No Rick, I hadn't seen it.

Just to give you the heads up on mine, the original version was designed by Mark Rumsay in the UK S2C forum and was only ever meant to deal with series rims. However his diagram was deficient in a number of places because of the variety of rims and the lack of clarity in the diagramme's design, some rim types don't seem to have survived in the UK or some he was unaware of, particularly the 543384 and the 272309. So I modified the diagramme and added the part numbers. Subsequently I added the 48 rim at which time I felt I could justify it as my edition.

It was only later when people were getting the early 130 rims and the Series forward control rims mixed up that I have started to add the Defender rims to the diagramme.

Notice in JB's table the 130 "wolf rims" in this weeks AULRO old markets (http://www.aulro.com/apc/showproduct.php/product/6945/cat/6) are clearly shown ANR5593 don't appear. More than that it is very clear they are positive offset.

JB is also missing the late county 6" rims (as am I, but I'm not sure I care about 6" rims except the ROH aftermarket ones for my Haulmark trailer).

[danialan]

Getting back to The Couch's original question....

I have run 130 tube type rims with tubeless tyres for the last 200,000km.

I find punctures with tube type rims very easy to repair in the bush. As the bead is far easier to break than tubeless type rims - no need for bead breaker, tyre pliers etc. as they dont have the internal hump. Just lie the tyre flat, jump around the tyre close to the rim and by the second lap the bead is broken and the tyre flops down, turn it over and repeat. With good tyre levers, take the tyre off the back of the rim (outside facing down), remove puncture from tyre, put spare tube in, and repair punctured tube later.

As has been said the key is to buy quality tubes. Check the rim where the centre is riveted to the outer for rust/roughness. Never had a problem with tubes rubbing through on the ribbed inner surface of the tubeless tyre. I cover the tube in baby powder to stop folds etc. 1st set of BFG Mud terrains 235/85R16 did 125,000km without a puncture or leak. This included plenty of off highway driving such as flinder ranges, the cape, gibb river rd etc.

The next set have not done so well with the tyre guys mounting them without tubes first, then failing to remove the quality control stickers from the inside of the tyre which perished the tubes in a neat little patches- not happy about that as each one went down in turn over a year. Some tyres had 3 stickers. Driving through Mongolia/Russia we had 8 punctures (wire and nails), can't say if we would have gotten any less with a tubless rims and tyres, but it stopped being entertaining, especially with a hand pump - taking 729 pumps to get 35psi!

I find that tyres with tubes tend to go down faster when punctured than tubless type rims and tyres. I think this is a good thing as you become aware of the problem quicker and dont tend to overheat and ruin a tyre that is slowly going down.

I have regularly run low pressures on the beach, desert etc with no problems of tyres rolling off rims etc, but I drive accordingly when running the low presures.

Oh, and while not wanting to start another endless debate. Don't bother with the second spare. Save your money, weight and space. Drive to the conditions and adjust tyre pressures accordingly. Carry the tools to repair the tyres you have, spare tubes and large patches, and pay attention to how the car is driving. At first hint of a tyre going down stop and check it out. Always worked for me.

Hope some of this helps you out,
Alan

[rick130]

I have a mix of ANR 5593 and ANR 4583 which are identical except for the safety bead on the 4583's.

What's the # of rim you posted here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/876522-post5.html ?
Is it ANR 1534 ?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/253.jpg

As that's the early style 130 rim I was talking about a little further back.
The centre drop is a lot further inboard than the later HD rims which give the impression (to me) of a wider offset.

[edit] everytime I see that face peering back at me I crack up :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I thought it was the one I had outside, but unfortunately that one is an Aussie ROH 6" type, similar to those on the Haulmark with the raised ridge over the PCD. They are AYG8108. .

So the rims in the image were in transit down to Gippsland and I no longer have them, however from other images the number looks like the 5.5" NRC7578 type from the County. It definately starts NRC7 and ending in 78 so I'm happy to accept NRC7578.

Oops I just noticed the last line and realised it IS one of the early rims, that is likely one of the rims I bought from Anthony Johnson British 4WD Imports, who, like me got confused about it being a 569203 SIIB rim. They got sold to someone building a Pretendie.

Pugs sure are cute aren't they. (Theres one giving my foot a bath at the moment! :) )

I'm now on a quest to find the rest of the image sequence.

[zwitter]

I have 2 Sets of original rims for my 130. Never looked at the bead bump? One set is riveted and the other welded. I in all of them with tubeless tyres as tubeless as I had tyre place refuse to fit tubes but said they would fix any leaks! Never had any issues except a bolt through one and can't blame that on the fitter!

I asked the insurance questions as was going to fit aftermarket but as 130 has different offset and width etc than 110. They sad any rim would need to be specifically approved for use on 130 to full loading etc. I struggled to find anyone wanting to do that.

I asked about tubes in tubeless and they said only if manufacturer would put in writing it was ok to do so.

When I used to run tubes on a Toyota troopy, I would buy good quality tubes, remove the little stickers as I found they folded up and cut the tube, and put heaps of talc (baby powder) in to lubricate the tyre and tube. Never a problem. Without the baby powder the tyres would get much hotter.

I Carry bead breakers etc but never get to use them.
James

[Lotz-A-Landies]

O.K found the image series (and you know that I dont have much of an interest in 130 rims).

I no longer have any of the rims so can not measure, suffice to say that the rim does indeed say 6 1/2 L X 16 20.6 and if the outside bead seat is only 2 1/2" the axle pad doesn't need to be very far outboard to make a 20.6 mm +ve offest.

Given the rim diagramme is not accurate, its been deleted until a new fact checked diagramme is prepared.

[123rover50]

People talk of good quality tubes but no brand names.
Lets have some examples especially in 900 x 19.
I cant find thick tubes any more only thin crap that gets pinched under the bead.
Keith

[pjlhat]

[QUOTE=danialan;1634139]Getting back to The Couch's original question....

I have run 130 tube type rims with tubeless tyres for the last 200,000km.

Having read the whole thread I am still unsure if there is a danger or legal reason not to fit a tubless tyre, without a tube, to the rim of a 1998 130? I have done this a couple of times due to frustration from poor quality tubes, but have always been concerned that I might roll a tyre off when trying to avoide an accident or loosing control myself. And from a legal point of view what might be the concequences.
From your post Alan I take it you would always use tubes and seek out quality tubes giving them a good coat of powder. Thanks for your comments.
Peter

[Lotz-A-Landies]

People talk of good quality tubes but no brand names.
Lets have some examples especially in 900 x 19.
I cant find thick tubes any more only thin crap that gets pinched under the bead.
Keith
...
Tubed tyres are a rare commodity these days so the only answers are to either use the tyres tubless on the standard rim or use a good quality (either Michelin or Bridgestone) tube with the tubeless tyre.
...Don't know about them doing 9.00 X 19

Be aware that another factor not mentioned before when using tube rims tubeless, is that riveted rims are more likely to leak than welded rims and as such, riveted rims SHOULD NOT BE USED TUBELESS

[PAT303]

[QUOTE=danialan;1634139]Getting back to The Couch's original question....

I have run 130 tube type rims with tubeless tyres for the last 200,000km.

Having read the whole thread I am still unsure if there is a danger or legal reason not to fit a tubless tyre, without a tube, to the rim of a 1998 130? I have done this a couple of times due to frustration from poor quality tubes, but have always been concerned that I might roll a tyre off when trying to avoide an accident or loosing control myself. And from a legal point of view what might be the concequences.
From your post Alan I take it you would always use tubes and seek out quality tubes giving them a good coat of powder. Thanks for your comments.
Peter
Mate,I have run tubeless tyres on tubed LR rims for 15 years and haven't had a puncture in I don't know how long,just run tubeless and be happy. Pat

[Wolfman_TWP]

I'm surprised that I saw that only one person mentioned, that there are two types of defender rims. Ones that are riveted, and ones that are welded.

I was told that you can't put tubeless tyres on the riveted type, due to them leaking from the rivets. The welded ones, no problems. Hence the reason why the Series land rovers all have tubes. They are all riveted. I purchased a set of 5 defender rims recently. And found that 4 are riveted and one is welded. I will still be putting on tubed tyres on them, to make sure they don't leak. (By that I mean the welded one as well)

Wolf

[2stroke]

I've had my 300 Tdi 130 for about 10 years now and in many beach, bush and desert trips I've run the 6.5" rims both with and without tubes. Only time I ever got flat tyres was with tubes in. Always when loaded and deflated (below 30psi) for sand, always on the rear. Have 16 x 8 King rims with 255 85/16s now, tubeless, only issue was some mud squeezed between the bead and rim and caused a slow leak, easy fix with tyre pliers but probably wouldn't have happened if I was still using the 6.5"s.

[goingbush]

Im running 130 tubed rims with bfg 235/85r16 , without tubes !!

funny thing happened on Monday,
I pulled up to a job site & parked on the grass ,
Job done pack gear back into trailer & go to drive off to find its a bit hard, maybe I'm in the wrong gear, so make sure I'm in 1st & give it a few herbs & its like a wheel is chocked --- I've got a flat.
I think to myself - oh crap , just what I need.

get out to find the tyre is completely unbeaded, whats more the Valve stem is completely missing - WHAT THE !!

Have a good look around and I can't find it anywhere, Bizzarre !!

Normally I would spray WD40 in there & use the old flame trick to pop the beads back on but I took it to the local tyre bloke as I didn't have any 16mm valve stems, He said its not uncommon - but could not explain how it happens - For the life of me I can't pull a Tubeless valve out thru the hole even with multi grips - how the hell could it happen !!!

Anyway my advice to y'all is order yourself some 16mm valve stems to put in your toolkit, normal car stems don't fit as they are too skinny.
$5.00 for a pack of 10
eBay Landrover tubeless Valve Stems (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390413804350'ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)

[DeanoH]

[edit] everytime I see that face peering back at me I crack up :D

You know, never even noticed till I read this !!!!!!!



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1388.jpg


Smart as a whip me!!

Deano:)

[DeanoH]

People talk of good quality tubes but no brand names.
Lets have some examples especially in 900 x 19.
I cant find thick tubes any more only thin crap that gets pinched under the bead.
Keith

If you mean in 900 R16's or 255/100 R16's Michelin make the best (thickest) tubes, though tractor types may also be available which may be even thicker. Dunlop in my experience come a close second (don't know about Bridgestone Dianna), with the cheapy Korean types coming a distant last. Only good for the kids swiming in the dam IMO. Similiarly if your'e using split rims, Michelin's rust/sweat bands are heaps thicker than the rest. They might cost more but they are NOT more expensive, all things considered.:D

Deano:)