diff upgrade options

[c.h.i.e.f]

recently i have pulled the front diff out from under my 110 county as i am doing alot of engine modifications its a tad easier with the front end removed and will also give me time to modify the diff while im at it.

since i am looking at getting well over 500Nm of toque and running 35's i cannot imagine everything lasting to well once asked to do some offroading:angel:

so heres what im planing on doing:
1.once i snap something on the rear end i will be doing the same as cal415 and do a dana 60 conversion which will then settle any issue with weakness :D
2.front diff in the rovers are not renowned for being strong so firstly i am going to do what isuzurover has done and strengthen the housing but then i am not sure what to do to make it internally strong so heres what i have in mind....

A.remove the whole diff and graft a gq front end in as i have one sitting around.

B.graft a 80series front end under as i also have one of them laying around.

C.keep the rover front housing as i can then have the advantage of bolted on swivels which i can then slot to accomodate lift etc etc but somehow put a gq or 80series centre into the housing.

obviously theres the ratios that need to be thought about but has anyone done any of these ideas? or recon it could be doable?or if anyone has any other ideas maybe?

if machining needs to be done which i asume will have to be i have 2 milling machines,3 lathes,surface grinder,filing machine,tig welder,stick welder but no mig welder :( do have access to one though so i hope everything can be done at home and i will post pics up of the process but im not sure about everything that needs to be done.

or just see how long it last without any mods :D

[isuzutoo-eh]

Do you have a spare Sals lying around? If so, whilst your front is out do you reckon you could have a look and see if a Sals would clear the Isuzu sump at the bumpstops? Realising the pumpkin will be offset to the wrong side etc...

[vogue]

I would sugest doing something that keeps a rover housing otherwise you will have two different stud patterns.
What about the toyota center in the rover diff with longfields etc?
RovingTracks Extreme Duty Land Rover Drivetrain Accessories (http://www.rovingtracks.com/products/driveline.html)

[33chinacars]

If going to use a Dana 60 in the rear. How about a Dana 44 for the front. Just a thought.

Gary

[rick130]

I would sugest doing something that keeps a rover housing otherwise you will have two different stud patterns.
What about the toyota center in the rover diff with longfields etc?
RovingTracks Extreme Duty Land Rover Drivetrain Accessories (http://www.rovingtracks.com/products/driveline.html)

A reverse cut Toy diff is weak as water in reverse.

Jac Mc have a conventional, low hypoid Hilux centre that bolts in, or;

From what's been written lately, I'd be using one of Ashcrofts new spiral bevel reverse cut CWP's with whatever centre you choose in a pegged housing and decent axles and CV's.

That way you can use stock LR bits for emergency, temporary repairs, if needed.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Thanks guys for the response to this...
I have heard good things and then terrible things about the Toyota components but I am not familiar with diff components really so excuse my lack of knowledge ...
Wonder if the gq centre would fit with if the diff pan was chopped and a pipe cap re-welded to protrude out further?
I wonder if the dana44 could work ?
I'm up for any suggestions really so maybe what Rick said may be a good option but where to source the parts etc etc as I am not up on where the best places are to buy these parts...

As for getting measurements I could do that as I also have a spare sals laying around but it's a drum brake one that's all ...

[goingbush]

another idea

get a pair of Landcruiser 60 series housings, they run the same big diff front and rear, unlike the 80 which uses the small front diff. Probably the most bulletproof toyota diffs, no axle & cv issues.

60 series track is about right , parts easy to get anywhere, and cheap,

Pretty easy job to clean off the spring perches and graft on all the defender suspension mounts etc.

Otherwise a GQ front & 80 Series Rear complete, both run the same stud pattern but not sure about the track

[clive22]

Hi,

I have done pretty much to a tee what Rick130 recommends to my V8 County.

My V8 is not putting out 500 NM of torque maybe 300 Nm tops, it's a 4.2 out of a Rangie LSE, but I run Maxi drive 30% reduction gears so probably in the same order. I had it in for 18 months and probably 20+ hard trips, no problems at all.

The parts you will need are:
CV's and CW&P Ashcroft. Reverse cut I ran mine for strength forward and I am careful in reverse.
The course cut 8/28 diff is not noisy, and after about 15K+ Km I have never noticed a difference with the stock diff or the slight difference with the rear.
These CW&P have a much larger tooth so are less sensitive to CW movement and the wheel is thicker than stock again helping with CW flex.

Axles and Locker the County are Jac Macnamara

Diff Pegging: Ashcroft supply modified centres, but really too heavy to freight in. I had mine done at Total Traction Drivelines in Moorabbin Melbourne.

The pegging I have is set up without the bronze bush per Ashcroft setup which neither myself or Matt at TTD like, it has to wear - requiring re-adjustment ie pull your diff every year or so - no thanks.

Mine is set up with two H.S. studs (Unbrako) about 0.5mm behind the crown wheel so they only engage when the CW flexes, keeping it on pinion. At all other times the pegging is inert in the diff. I reckon you could do it yourself, but you need to good at welding, pre-heat the diff and carefully mill the plates.

I'd reckon a Toyota conversion may work out a bit cheaper, and may be a bit stronger, but you can't rotate your swivels as I have done and you can't keep all your parts as spares.


I don't have any photos to post up unfortunately


Clive

[c.h.i.e.f]

mmmm theres so many options personally it would be easier to fit the whole gq front under the front but the only thing stopping me is the swivels and steering ect etc..
i did read awhile ago about a fella that was making an "indestructable" diff by mixing parts from 80series and gu diffs and then chromoly axles,cvs etc etc but cannot remember who it was or where i seen it :(

i would have liked a front sals but then again i would have more luck winning the lotto then finding one of those!

so basically the best option at this stage by the looks of it is simply upgrading the rover stuff to ashcroft gear and then fitting a e-locker im thinking

[Bearman]

If you can find one, this is the housing to use ( from an army RFSV Perentie 110). Better than a Salisbury makeup. Combine this with a Trutrac and heavier axles and AEU2322 CV'S and if you really want to spend a bit more an Ashcroft Cw & P. Indestructible!

[justinc]

If you can find one, this is the housing to use ( from an army RFSV Perentie 110). Better than a Salisbury makeup. Combine this with a Trutrac and heavier axles and AEU2322 CV'S and if you really want to spend a bit more an Ashcroft Cw & P. Indestructible!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
:cool::cool::cool::cool:

is it in yet???????

stop teasing the poor man brian :) :)

JC

[Bearman]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
:cool::cool::cool::cool:

is it in yet???????

stop teasing the poor man brian :) :)

JC

Not yet unfortunately, have had a bit of a delay with helping a sick neighbour get his house ready for sale and last week decided to buy new rotors and brake hoses which have arrived so will get stuck into it over the next 2 weeks. BTW I discovered the radius arm bushes are the shorter ones (NTC1774), same as the standard diff - not what the manual says!

[isuzurover]

If you can find one, this is the housing to use ( from an army RFSV Perentie 110). Better than a Salisbury makeup. Combine this with a Trutrac and heavier axles and AEU2322 CV'S and if you really want to spend a bit more an Ashcroft Cw & P. Indestructible!

No Rover diff can be described as "indestructible". Mythbusters may have shown that with enough time and effort you can indeed polish a turd, but there are limits.

Chief - how much power and torque you have is less important than the size of tyres you will be running???

[Bearman]

No Rover diff can be described as "indestructible". Mythbusters may have shown that with enough time and effort you can indeed polish a turd, but there are limits.

Chief - how much power and torque you have is less important than the size of tyres you will be running???

You're right there Ben, I even managed to destroy a Salisbury years ago - without much effort, they are supposed to be indestructible.

[c.h.i.e.f]

That's a nice looking diff there bearman I will ask my mate that works at a local army base workshop see what he can find ....
Im running 35's at the moment but in the future am planning at least 37's maybe 42's one day in the distant future :angel: I am planing on gearbox to let go before diffs do anyways :(
It's a never ending story !!!

[clubagreenie]

While you're looking at reinforcing the housing, KAM have a new kit for a std axle

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/533942_10150639990798927_123570148926_9435573_1317 688155_n.jpg

not sure when it'll be available but L8 have posted about it's release about a week ago on FB. They also have a toyo axle kit upgrade as well and a variety of bits and bobs. Might be worth just looking at their listings to get some ideas of what's been done.

[c.h.i.e.f]

That looks nice with those speed holes in it :D isuzurover's is pretty much the same ...isuzurover can you plz post up some of your photos of your diff that you modified so everyone can see ?
Although a set of rockwells could solve all these problems ...

[c.h.i.e.f]

Check this out ...Stage 12 (http://www.washbrook.net/Stage_12.htm)

[isuzurover]

...
Im running 35's at the moment but in the future am planning at least 37's maybe 42's one day in the distant future :angel: I am planing on gearbox to let go before diffs do anyways :(
It's a never ending story !!!

OK - well if you are serious with 37-42" and plan to use it seriously offroad then you will need 35spl D60 or better F+R.




That looks nice with those speed holes in it isuzurover's is pretty much the same ...isuzurover can you plz post up some of your photos of your diff that you modified so everyone can see ?

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Pics_Apr_2010406.jpg
The diff pan is a butt weld pipe cap which is >8mm thick and adds a LOT of strength in addition to the bracing.

Are KAM still in business???

Their option eats up clearance, would foul an ISUZU sump, and looks like it forces you to use their crappy locker (or at least their diff pan).

[isuzurover]

You're right there Ben, I even managed to destroy a Salisbury years ago - without much effort, they are supposed to be indestructible.

So what broke Brian?

[rick130]

[snip]

Are KAM still in business???

Their option eats up clearance, would foul an ISUZU sump, and looks like it forces you to use their crappy locker (or at least their diff pan).

I think Allmakes4x4 or one of the other big wholesalers over there bought into the business.

[clubagreenie]

KAM have just restarted and all bits and pieces will be available for lockers etc apparently.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Thanks isuzurover...I will stick with what you have done as as u said the clearance issue and reduced clearance on bottom plus I doubt it would be any stronger than yours anyways....Dana 60 front ??? I'm intreagued :D

[Bearman]

So what broke Brian?

Was travelling along a dirt road up near Burketown in the Gulf country when the diff locked up and I came to a sudden stop. When I looked under to see what had happened, I found a neat hole through the cover on the Sals diff and no oil left in it. Basically it cooked itself until the front pinion bearing melted and fused things together. The pinion had a flat side, several teeth missing from the crownwheel, carrier cracked and everything was a pretty electric blue colour:eek: When I stripped it down I found all the crownwheel studs were loose and one of them had come out far enough to snag on the housing and being hi tensile had broken and went straight through the cover and let all the oil out. No sign of any loctite on any of the studs so assume my diff was assembled on a Monday morning at the factory by someone with a fuzzy head.

[rick130]

Brian, I didn't realise the HD front ends came in stock track width too, I always thought they were a 6x6 thing.

I know where one used to be, I just keep forgetting to ask if it's still there.

[Bearman]

Brian, I didn't realise the HD front ends came in stock track width too, I always thought they were a 6x6 thing.

I know where one used to be, I just keep forgetting to ask if it's still there.

Hi Rick, Same housing only longer both ends for the 6X6. Only the RFSV's got the heavy one. You can modify/shorten the 6X6 housing to suit 4X4 if you can find one and know someone who is competent at doing it. Part number is AYG4319 for the 4X4 and AYG4316 for the 6X6. There are a few around - Rar110 in Brisbane found a brand new one at a LR dealer who used to do army servicing and acquired it for a very modest sum. Last time I checked LR wanted about 3K for a new bare housing. If you know where one is I would advise you grab it - if you dont want it I will take it off your hands.

[Bush65]

...
i did read awhile ago about a fella that was making an "indestructable" diff by mixing parts from 80series and gu diffs and then chromoly axles,cvs etc etc but cannot remember who it was or where i seen it :(

...
I have a hybrid front axle assembly. I bought a bent axle without diff from a 105 series cruiser, a 4.11:1 H233B diff centre from a patrol, and picked up a bare 60 series cruiser rear housing from a scrap bin (stronger housing than 80 series).

The swivel balls were removed from the 105 series housing and welded into the 60 series housing after preparing the axle tubes for length and machining for the spigot on the balls. The housing had to be flipped and the flange replaced for the H233B diff.

80 series side gears were fitted to an H233B ARB locker.

Half shafts are 80/105 series, cv's are Longfield 80 series, all stock 105 series from swivels outboard.

[goingbush]

I have a hybrid front axle assembly. I bought a bent axle without diff from a 105 series cruiser, a 4.11:1 H233B diff centre from a patrol, and picked up a bare 60 series cruiser rear housing from a scrap bin (stronger housing than 80 series).

The swivel balls were removed from the 105 series housing and welded into the 60 series housing after preparing the axle tubes for length and machining for the spigot on the balls. The housing had to be flipped and the flange replaced for the H233B diff.

80 series side gears were fitted to an H233B ARB locker.

Half shafts are 80/105 series, cv's are Longfield 80 series, all stock 105 series from swivels outboard.

Seems a lot of trouble to go to.
why not just use a 60 series front end complete sans spring perches and shocker mounts with defender mounts welded on ??

[c.h.i.e.f]

Going the 60 would also mean pinion angle problems or castor problems if the nuckles are not cut and rotated like John has had done :(

[Bush65]

Seems a lot of trouble to go to.
why not just use a 60 series front end complete sans spring perches and shocker mounts with defender mounts welded on ??
I also changed rear to 105 series - IMHO far stronger than 60 series or 80 series. These were originally put under my bushie with 37" tyres - replacing the stock rangie front and rear diffs which didn't have a snowballs hope, and IMHO was better than fitting a rear salisbury (strong enough, with better ground clearance).

I wanted a high pinion front diff.

Much stronger cv's than 60 series

I wanted wider track and better brakes than stock

[c.h.i.e.f]

ok i have my front diff out and all in pieces ready to slot the swivel balls and bracing the housing..
as per my previous statements about stronger diff options i have been discussing with a friend about "pegging" the rover diff centre for those that dont know its placing slight pressure on the crown wheel by putting 2 bolts down through the casing and a phosphor bronze pad that touches the back of the crown wheel where it contacts the pinion there is some info on ashcroft site for those that are interested.
ok but heres my thoughts on this:
1.i am wondering if it is worth doing as its alot of work and in the end i am probably left with a piece of s##t still

2.im not sure how to place the pad down there near the crown wheel as it looks like it will be a guessing game??

3.as said before im probably trying to make crap into gold!!!

4.then again this idea has been used in the UK in competition use and 40" tyres without fail i have been told.

5.all this will cost say $1200 for locker whilst its out,$100 in material for pegging,$100 for bracing material,if i cannot figure out how to set the diff up well that will cost to get someone to do that im guessing,im planning on running the standard cv's and axles until i snap one then it would be rovertracks going in which will be another what $1200?? thats already at $2600 and in the end its still a rover diff.

6.when pulling everything apart everything is marked with white and yellow paint things such as cv's have white paint on them the diff housing has white paint marks on it the inside of the swivel balls also have yellow paint on them does anyone know what this may mean? im asuming its just factory markings?

7.i have been seeing crate diffs from america that look indestructible and are using stuff such as dana60 etc etc and there around the $2000-$3500 mark maybe they might be worth looking at?

sorry about the length of this :angel:

[clubagreenie]

There shouldn't be any constant pressure on the backside of the crownwheel as it will just wear away anyway. It should be close but not touching, I think there's a reference measurement in another thread which mentions it but I'm not sure which.

[c.h.i.e.f]

auh ok well even so im still worried that im as people would like to say "polishing a turd"... i tried a gq centre today but there is no hope in hell that one is gunna fit in the rover housing...i am tempted to buy some unimog diffs off a guy selling 2 fronts (could have rear steer then) only problem being i will not be able to drive on the road so thats still a dream at this stage:(

[Vern]

buy a front sals from the UK, or off popemobile on here, he makes a housing:)

[isuzutoo-eh]

buy a front sals from the UK, or off popemobile on here, he makes a housing:)

But will it clear the Isuzu sump? Has anyone actually measured/tested to see if the longer/beefier nose will clear everything?

[ashtrans]

The pegging I have is set up without the bronze bush per Ashcroft setup which neither myself or Matt at TTD like, it has to wear - requiring re-adjustment ie pull your diff every year or so - no thanks.

Mine is set up with two H.S. studs (Unbrako) about 0.5mm behind the crown wheel so they only engage when the CW flexes,

Clive

We back the 2 studs out 1/4 turn to give 0.5mm clearance, the pad doesn't wear much at all as it is only in contact under deflection,

We have seen high tensile bolts used before but you really want a bearing material in there to stop it picking up,

Dave

[c.h.i.e.f]

But will it clear the Isuzu sump? Has anyone actually measured/tested to see if the longer/beefier nose will clear everything?

Sorry I have not yet had a chance to try the rear sals under the front to check clearances yet... Um I will probably be making a new sump any how to get rid of the wing so I can fit my exhaust easier !

[c.h.i.e.f]

We back the 2 studs out 1/4 turn to give 0.5mm clearance, the pad doesn't wear much at all as it is only in contact under deflection,

We have seen high tensile bolts used before but you really want a bearing material in there to stop it picking up,

Dave

Only thing that still worries me is that it prevents crown wheel flexing but I'm not sure that the diff will still Handel hard going as they are not a as robust as Nissan or any other for that fact... All my concern is that if I am going to this trouble I might be better off going a tad further and making it twice as good but then again I could be under estimating things !!!

[Bush65]

... i tried a gq centre today but there is no hope in hell that one is gunna fit in the rover housing...
I know the H233B high pinion diff can be fitted into the early (non-flat bottom) rangie front housings.

The early housing has 1 less bolt (6 vs 7) for the swivel balls, but has the advantage that there is space for adding 2 extra bolts, one either side of the bottom bolt where you need them, thus much stronger than the later arrangement.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Thanks John ... I unfortunately have the later one of the 2 :( I may have also picked up the incorrect gq centre as I have 1 out of a petrol one , one out a diesel and a rear one maybe I picked up the wrong one I'll double check!!
In your opinion John with my swivel slotting I'm looking at around 8mm of slotting that will have to be done do you recon that is to much ? I'm planning on making thick washers to fit under heads of the bolts to try and help

[Bush65]

Thanks John ... I unfortunately have the later one of the 2 :( I may have also picked up the incorrect gq centre as I have 1 out of a petrol one , one out a diesel and a rear one maybe I picked up the wrong one I'll double check!!
In your opinion John with my swivel slotting I'm looking at around 8mm of slotting that will have to be done do you recon that is to much ? I'm planning on making thick washers to fit under heads of the bolts to try and help
how much you slot the holes depends on how much castor correction is needed.

Thick washers will help with the fatigue strength og the bolts, also not having the slot extend past the shank of the bolts, i.e. don't make the slots any longer than necessary. For fatigue strength it is necessary to maximise the area of flange that is under compression when the bolt is tightened - this area is a sort of cone shape region, through the flange from the underside of the bolt head, i.e. it enlarges as the compression extends through the thickness of the flange. Slotting reduces the area, and the thick washer helps to restore some (but not all) of the lost area.

Edit: these bolts loosen or break because because the fatigue strength is reduced by insufficient pre-tension or because stiffness of the flange in the area under the bolt head is reduced (gasket instead of metal to metal joint, thick sealant or dirt in the joint, or mating surfaces not flat (burred).

[uninformed]

John, when you say there is room for a bolt either side of the bottom bolt on 6 bolt swivels, would this be a bolt of the same dia as factory?

Also would there be any benefit of fitting additional smaller id bolts?

[c.h.i.e.f]

using the maths that lambrover used to figure out correction needed i came out with 8mm so at the moment i have my old boy making up a shaft that fits through the swivel ball and will be held in the dividing head and slots machined...
as for the mating surfaces (flanges) i would like it so that i did not need to use any gasket but im not sure if it will be doable?

[Benny_IIA]

I just skimmed throught the thread sorry if it has been posted before.

But why not just put complete gq front diff in radius arms and all?

They just about slide straight in, the nissan and rover panhard can even been sleeved together.

Then just a put a set of heat treated garner cv's or his new long field conversion for nissans.

would be an easy and strong front end.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Problem still being then either pinion angle way out or need swivels rotated :(

[rick130]

Problem still being then either pinion angle way out or need swivels rotated :(

The pinion shouldn't be out with the Nissan diff, should it ?

And being a high pinion centre, it at least reduces the uni angles.

BTW, you can't rotate the swivels easily on a Nissan (or Toyota) as they are welded on :(

If you need to alter castor and/or camber on a Patrol you use eccentric swivel bearing cups.

[c.h.i.e.f]

The pinion shouldn't be out with the Nissan diff, should it ?

And being a high pinion centre, it at least reduces the uni angles.

BTW, you can't rotate the swivels easily on a Nissan (or Toyota) as they are welded on :(

If you need to alter castor and/or camber on a Patrol you use eccentric swivel bearing cups.

Sorry with the swivels that's what I was referring to about rotating them is a nightmare as the work would have to be done by someone that can get them perfect once cut and rewelded.

I'm not sure how good the eccentric bearing cups work as I personally have not had anything to do with them...

Also good point with the point about high pinion as that should resolve some problems I would assume ...

Anyone know if the radius arm brakets are the same distance apart on the gq diff compared to the rover ones ?

[rick130]

The eccentric cups work great, we've had them for years in our Patrol to correct the wanders, but I don't know how much total adjustment you can get.

I can measure the GU in the morning if you need.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Mmmm would be interesting to know the total adjustment but then again combine that with the higher pinion than the rover diff it may allow room for the whole diff to be rolled back when welding radius arm brakets on...

If you have a spare minute a measurement would go good please and thank you ...

[Bush65]

...
as for the mating surfaces (flanges) i would like it so that i did not need to use any gasket but im not sure if it will be doable?
Perhaps my earlier post wasn't clear - use metal to metal (no gasket) as a gasket with lower elastic modulus reduces the fatigue strength of the bolts.

...
Anyone know if the radius arm brakets are the same distance apart on the gq diff compared to the rover ones ?
Close enough. I have Nissan GU diffs (with portals) and radius arms under my bushie.

[Bush65]

John, when you say there is room for a bolt either side of the bottom bolt on 6 bolt swivels, would this be a bolt of the same dia as factory?

Also would there be any benefit of fitting additional smaller id bolts?
I'll measure up and get back with more detail, - the main issue is socket clearance.

[uninformed]

socket or spanner haha. I cant see how you would get a socket with any driving device attached. I have some nice Snap-on Hi performance 12 point ring spanners. The 14-17mm version is their longest in 14mm so you can get some good torque on those double hex bolts.

but yes tool clearance was my reasoning for maybe a smaller dia bolt between the others? this may be of some help to the 7 bolt swivels. Or a person could cut off the axle flange machine a new one and weld up the holes in the swivels flange and add as many bolts as posible all the way around, allowing of coarse for tool size to tighten the bolts. I have seen high pressure flanges on pipe work that has bolts almost touching all the way around. I figure there must be some small similarity in these???

[350RRC]

how much you slot the holes depends on how much castor correction is needed.

Thick washers will help with the fatigue strength og the bolts, also not having the slot extend past the shank of the bolts, i.e. don't make the slots any longer than necessary. For fatigue strength it is necessary to maximise the area of flange that is under compression when the bolt is tightened - this area is a sort of cone shape region, through the flange from the underside of the bolt head, i.e. it enlarges as the compression extends through the thickness of the flange. Slotting reduces the area, and the thick washer helps to restore some (but not all) of the lost area.

Edit: these bolts loosen or break because because the fatigue strength is reduced by insufficient pre-tension or because stiffness of the flange in the area under the bolt head is reduced (gasket instead of metal to metal joint, thick sealant or dirt in the joint, or mating surfaces not flat (burred).

Not sure which diff housing chief is using.

I slotted the 74 RR balls from my POS and welded up the slots so that effectively the holes just got moved. Was really easy to do in sequence after slotting on the end of a spare housing using an old oily bolt that the weld wouldn't stick to. I just ground the excess off the outside with an angle grinder.

Note: the flanges on the other balls I have (81 RR) are at least 20% thicker than the 74 ones for whatever reason. Internals are the same and internal spacing has been adjusted at the factory. I'd use those next time.

I used the widest thickest washers I could find under the bolt heads. No probs to date. (80 thou)

cheers, DL

[c.h.i.e.f]

i am using a 1986 110 diff housing and have 7 bolts...how did you slot your holes? and also with welding was it easy or was it a mission? as i was wondering if oil impregnation may have occured to the steel making welding difficult...
i am going to slot holes use thick washers as previously stated then for extra security i am considering drilling a 10mm hole through swivel ball flange and then assembling it all back together to new adjustment point then marking diff side flange then remove swivel ball again drill and tap diff side flange and then i will have a lock bolt so to speak...

[350RRC]

Hi Chief,

Made a circular jig out of ply clamped to a drill press with a slotting bit. Bit tedious as the flanges are quite hard. You have to double check you're clocking the holes the right way!!

I am no gun welder. All traces of oil were removed from the flanges, balls were mounted on a spare housing using two opposite bolts in the new rotated position. Slots were filled with weld one by one using an old oily bolt in each as I went. Surprisingly easy. Cleaned up the outer surface carefully with a 4" grinder.

cheers, DL

[c.h.i.e.f]

mmmm interesting...any pics of the process?
one advantage of how you do it was that the holes were already slotted then you welded but the problem i can see with welding holes prior then drilling new holes is that no matter how good your marking out is it will never be spot on compared to the other side...
i have already marked the direction of where the slots will need to go (hopefully my mind didnt slip up that day :angel: ) then use a dividing head on the mill and see how well it turns out i shal post pics up when im doing it if i can figure out how :D

[350RRC]

Hi again,

Slot first, rotate, then fill the slots to create holes only. Was a long while ago and I think I was going for 7 degrees.

To get them the same you just pick a slot on each that is closest to the end rotation you were after and use that as your reference (leave a bolt in that slot end) when welding up the rest.

Don't have pics and a milling machine would be a gazillion times better than doing it the way I did.

cheers, DL

[rovercare]

If you slot them in a mill over 5 degree's, they aill leave an edge that is good enough to stop any rotation, I ran these for years

If you wanna build diffs, get a front sals, convert rear to 35 spline front to 30, if you wanna do diffs on a budget, use GU 3.5 ratio diff's

I have a question, all this theory and all these posts, do you have the time and dollars to achieve what your after? none of this stuff is new, no leadin edge technology, its all been doneded beforeded:D

You need to answer 3 things

1. your budget
2. The desired result
3. what your capability (hands on to build stuff) is

Simply mathematics will tell you if its viable

[350RRC]

If you slot them in a mill over 5 degree's, they aill leave an edge that is good enough to stop any rotation, I ran these for years

If you wanna build diffs, get a front sals, convert rear to 35 spline front to 30, if you wanna do diffs on a budget, use GU 3.5 ratio diff's

I have a question, all this theory and all these posts, do you have the time and dollars to achieve what your after? none of this stuff is new, no leadin edge technology, its all been doneded beforeded:D

You need to answer 3 things

1. your budget
2. The desired result
3. what your capability (hands on to build stuff) is

Simply mathematics will tell you if its viable

That's about the guts of it.

Time - wise I had the slotting bit already: then balls off, made the jig, slotted the holes, welded up the slots, re-assembled all in a day. Welding part was quick, slotting was slowest but a mill would be much quicker.

Then took the POS for a drive.....................no more shopping trolley. :cool:

DL

[c.h.i.e.f]

If you slot them in a mill over 5 degree's, they aill leave an edge that is good enough to stop any rotation, I ran these for years

If you wanna build diffs, get a front sals, convert rear to 35 spline front to 30, if you wanna do diffs on a budget, use GU 3.5 ratio diff's

I have a question, all this theory and all these posts, do you have the time and dollars to achieve what your after? none of this stuff is new, no leadin edge technology, its all been doneded beforeded:D

You need to answer 3 things

1. your budget
2. The desired result
3. what your capability (hands on to build stuff) is

Simply mathematics will tell you if its viable

the problem i can see with the front sals is trying to find one....
budget is like most people which = least amount possible for the best outcome :angel:
well the desired outcome is to have a diff that is reliable under offroading circumstances having said this i have yet to have a problem with a rover diff apart from in my puma which is on its 3rd rear diff :mad: so will be interesting to see if the rover front holds up (im not in competition use for now as i would like to keep it road registered to do trips and play around with diesel performance so to speak) however i am on teh look out for a gu front now you have said that
as for capability ...brain surgery is possible all you need to do is read the book :D being serious though my father is a fitter machinist that hates fitting but loves machining who will help if i get stuck but i prefer to try myself.

[Bush65]

socket or spanner haha. I cant see how you would get a socket with any driving device attached. I have some nice Snap-on Hi performance 12 point ring spanners. The 14-17mm version is their longest in 14mm so you can get some good torque on those double hex bolts.

but yes tool clearance was my reasoning for maybe a smaller dia bolt between the others? this may be of some help to the 7 bolt swivels. Or a person could cut off the axle flange machine a new one and weld up the holes in the swivels flange and add as many bolts as posible all the way around, allowing of coarse for tool size to tighten the bolts. I have seen high pressure flanges on pipe work that has bolts almost touching all the way around. I figure there must be some small similarity in these???
I realised after I posted that I should have said spanner, not socket.

Anyway I took some measurements as per my earlier post and pics and made the following comments.

The round bottom front diff housings, as found under early rangies, use imperial (not mm) dimensions and bolts for the bolted joint between the axle housing and swivels. They have 6 x 3/8" UNF bolts equally spaced (60* arc) on a 3.75" (95.25 mm) PCD (pitch circle dia).

These bolts sometimes suffered from loosening or breakage and when the later flat bottom housing was introduced an extra bolt was added (7 vs 6). Bolt size also changed to M10 fine (10 mm is 0.475 mm larger than 3/8" - from memory, comparing the root diameters, the M10 fine thread doesn't show as great an increase over 3/8" UNF). However the new 12 point bolt heads, given their larger intergral washer will improve the fatigue strength - see my earlier post about using a thick washer when the holes are slotted.

I have not measured the new PCD - I would be surprised if it was not changed slightly to a nice round number of mm's. From a quick look it appears that 5 of the bolts are still equally spaced on 60* arcs, but the lower bolt position was replaced with 2 new bolts on a spacing of 40* [40* = (2 x 60*) / 3].

For pricipally vertical (gravity) dynamic loads applied from the terrain at the tyres, the bolts located near the bottom of this joint carry most of the load - the other bolts see much less load. Note that the load tries to pull the joint apart at the bottom (increasing the pre-tension in the lower bolts) and push the joint together at the top (this compression reduces the pre-tension in the upper bolts).

In an earlier post I stated that for the early housing and swivels, an extra 2 bolts could be added, one either side of the bottom bolt, bringing the total number of bolts to 8. This would be somewhat stronger than the later 7 bolt version.

I have confirmed that the extra bolts can be the same size as the originals (3/8" UNF) - see comments and pics of an early housing below.

Check new bolt pitch if extra bolts are added mid-way between existing bolts, i.e. spaced on 30* arcs.

From simple trigonometry; chord = PCD x sin (arc / 2).

Then chordal bolt pitch will reduce from 1.875" (47.625 mm) to 0.971" (24.652 mm).

The new pitch is approx 2.6 x bolt dia (OK).

Check for spanner clearance between bolt heads.

Obtain the maximum allowable size across the outside of the spanner by subtracting the dimension of the bolt head across it's corners, from the 60* chordal pitch.

47.625 mm - 16.5 mm = 31.125 mm (OK for 9/16" ring spanner).

[c.h.i.e.f]

Also People have said about welding the flanges once back together I would just like to remind people just so no one makes a mistake that once welded or tacked etc etc remember its going to be near impossible to change any seals once this has been done especially if your on a trip and no grinding device is present!!!

John.
It's interesting that the bolts are of a different appearance (single hex) compared to as you have stated 12point or double hex with a collar like my later ones,what is the tensile strength for the bolts used on the earlier ones ?

[Slunnie]

The pinion shouldn't be out with the Nissan diff, should it ?

And being a high pinion centre, it at least reduces the uni angles.

BTW, you can't rotate the swivels easily on a Nissan (or Toyota) as they are welded on :(

If you need to alter castor and/or camber on a Patrol you use eccentric swivel bearing cups.

It's probably quicker on a Toyota. The swivel ball assy is pushed into the axle housing and then welded on at the end of the axle housing. When they do the castor corrections they make a fine cut around the axle housing next to the weld (but not into the swivel ball assy) and then rotate the swivel ball assy to correct the castor before rewelding. The swivel ball assy should keep the angles (camber) pretty close due to its fit in the axle housing but of course it depends on your work.

[c.h.i.e.f]

ok done some measurements on the diffs today and found that nissan centres will not fit in the later model rover front housings :(
note: bush65 has pointed out the the earlier range rover diff housings do not have the flat on the bottom where the centre fits and i do not have measurements for this diff like he has mentioned!

rover PCD = 215.5mm
toyota 80series PCD= 215mm
Nissan patrol 3.9 ratio and 4.3 ratio PCD = 240mm

the nissan long side axle would be lucky to be 1" longer than the rover long side...
the diameter of the hole where the axle seal sits in the swivel ball is obviously to small for the nissan axles and would need to be taken out to a larger diameter which i would start to be concerned about strength compared to the 0.010" that needs to be taken out of the "diameter" to fit the toyota axles...

the toyota front diff however would be a good candidate for a conversion but i am left with a few options now...

1.do the 80series conversion and see how much stronger it is compared to the rover which might end up being a pointless exercise.

2.try the whole gq front under and see how bad the castor is out whilst still maintaining a reasonable pinion angle.

3.keep trying to find a FC101 diff and be done with it.

4.see how long the rover setup lasts and not go to stupid offroad :angel:

[Slunnie]

Or contact Buds customs in QLD and see if he can make you a housing to suit your diff of choice with your ends of choice. I think its about $1k.

[c.h.i.e.f]

thanks slunnie i was about to ask who does this work :D

[clubagreenie]

Any of the larger diff mobs who cater for drag/custom/rod guys generally build their own housings, and you could go 9" both ends and get cheap lockers and axles etc.

[Slunnie]

I think 9" Hi-pinion setups are expensive if thats what you're after otherwise the pinions are lower than normal as the 9" pinions are offset further than normal off the diff centre line.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Both good points and I have looked into it there is also places in America that make custom DIY kits and would be probably better than 9" with something around the 12" region they also use open CVs (uni type) and used in such races as KOH...the problems that would occur in modifying my housing or making one even though my largest lathe has a 4m bed and would be suitable for such mods is getting the swivel mount flanges on either end parallel and have the bolt holes in the same positions on one end as the other and also making sure that the bores line up however it would be possible and with a rediculous amount of marking out and setting up...

[Bush65]

... i am considering drilling a 10mm hole through swivel ball flange and then assembling it all back together to new adjustment point then marking diff side flange then remove swivel ball again drill and tap diff side flange and then i will have a lock bolt so to speak...


If you slot them in a mill over 5 degree's, they aill leave an edge that is good enough to stop any rotation, I ran these for years

...
Lots of people think (wrongly) that the bolt hole plays some part in preventing rotation of the swivel at the bolted joint.

The bolt holes only stop rotation while in the process of assembling the swivel to the axle housing. Once the bolts are properly pre-tensioned, the bolt shank bearing against the side of its hole does not prevent rotation.

The bolted joint relies on friction between the mating surfaces to prevent rotation. This is the way all bolted joints subjected to eccentric, dynamic loads should be designed - it is also the recommended method for any bolted joint where movement can't be tolerated. The only exception which comes readily to mind is where cone washers and their like are used, e.g. Toyota hub/axle flanges. Fitted bolts, fell out of fashion many years ago, because they expensive and not as reliable - bolts in clearance holes, even with less than 0.5 mm clearance are not suitable.

Once these bolts are tightened properly they are never subjected to any shear load whatsoever - this fact can be difficult to grasp.

BTW the only applied load that tries to rotate the swivel about the axle centreline (which is the rotation referred to here) is braking. With braking the horizontal (traction) force between tyre and road is transferred through the brake caliper mounts etc. to the swivel, then to the axle tube via the bolted joint in question. it is then transferred to the chassis via the radius arm.

[c.h.i.e.f]

On further investigation front sals diffs look like they do not have removable balls :o no good :(

[isuzutoo-eh]

On further investigation front sals diffs look like they do not have removable balls :o no good :(

Thats the 101 sals, correct. How about the Shorland armoured car Sals from ol' blighty? Or a custom job?
Being tube rather than a casting, welding new flanges on a Sals would be easier than the rover front too i'd have thought.

[isuzurover]

Thats the 101 sals, correct. How about the Shorland armoured car Sals from ol' blighty? Or a custom job?
Being tube rather than a casting, welding new flanges on a Sals would be easier than the rover front too i'd have thought.

Yes you are correct - all front sals EXCEPT the FC101 had bolt-on swivels.

However the rover housing is made from pressed steel, not cast.

[c.h.i.e.f]

I'm not familiar with the shorland type diff ! would you have a photo ? And yes the sals having tube style design it would make it more easy and accurate to machine...im not sure if the tubes on salisbury diffs are screwed in or pressed in or how hard they are to remove ?

[Bush65]

I'm not familiar with the shorland type diff ! would you have a photo ? And yes the sals having tube style design it would make it more easy and accurate to machine...im not sure if the tubes on salisbury diffs are screwed in or pressed in or how hard they are to remove ?
From the little I know, these are the armoured Defender 110's that were used in Northern Ireland during the conflicts with the IRA. Because of the weight of armour, Land Rover fitted Salisbury front diffs as a direct replacement for the Rover front diff.

Sals are a variation of the Dana 60 built by Dana Salisbury in the UK. With Dana 60's the tubes are a shrink fit into the diff casting then the tubes are plug welded through the holes in the casting. I haven't taken enough interest in Sals, but mine seem not to have been plug welded - but then I need to clear away some mud and crud and have a proper look to be sure.

If welded like the 60's the weld is very hard, making them difficult to drill out. Once that is done the tubes can be pulled out, similar to removing any other shrink/press fitted parts of similar diameter, which any competent fitter should be capable of doing - scrap steel, welder, jack and oxy torch are your friends.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Thanks John for clearing that up..
As for the sals I am planning on leaving rear in and converting over to the dana60 internals one day which I think sounds like a good idea but the front concerns me so depends how hard one of these shorland front sals are to find if not I'll be keeping the rover front until it breaks which will give me time to figure out a plan... I have looked at other front diffs such as Dana44 etc etc and don't really know if it's a step forward or a step back!!

[isuzurover]

...

I haven't taken enough interest in Sals, but mine seem not to have been plug welded - but then I need to clear away some mud and crud and have a proper look to be sure.

...

Sals are also plug welded



Thanks John for clearing that up..
As for the sals I am planning on leaving rear in and converting over to the dana60 internals one day which I think sounds like a good idea but the front concerns me so depends how hard one of these shorland front sals are to find if not I'll be keeping the rover front until it breaks which will give me time to figure out a plan... I have looked at other front diffs such as Dana44 etc etc and don't really know if it's a step forward or a step back!!

It is quite easy to have a rear sals (or a Dana60) turned into a front. Buds Customs has been mentioned already in this thread. He would be able to do the work for you. I believe Popemobile was also having front sals housings made from rears.

[c.h.i.e.f]

thanks isuzurover...

i did remember seeing a thread on here somewhere with pics of i would say "popemobile's" rear sals to front sals conversion i cannot seem to find it again :angel: i am concerned about hub and swivel arrangement they have used on this because all this seems alot of work when standard nissan axles are to large to fit through standard landrover balls..

how are you finding your front setup isuzurover?

[Bush65]

I just skimmed throught the thread sorry if it has been posted before.

But why not just put complete gq front diff in radius arms and all?

They just about slide straight in, the nissan and rover panhard can even been sleeved together.

Then just a put a set of heat treated garner cv's or his new long field conversion for nissans.

would be an easy and strong front end.
The GQ is a fairly simple conversion worthy of consideration, but ...

1. With Nissan radius arms, the bushes are widely spaced, which adversely affects articulation. Radius arm brackets can be grafted on from a rover diff so that rover radius arms can be used.

2. Suspension up-travel on the RH side suffers because the Nissan housing hits the bump stop part way up the pumpkin for the diff. Those with Isuzu engines (like the original poster) have aready lost some up-travel because the front bump stop mounts are extended from the factory.

3. Stock Nissan cv's are no stronger than rover. Yes you can replace these with upgraded cv's and get similar strength to upgraded rover cv's. The only option for larger cv's are later cruisers e.g. 80 and 105 series, or the even harder to use 101 fronts.

[clubagreenie]

Stock Nissan cv's are no stronger than rover. Yes you can replace these with upgraded cv's and get similar strength to upgraded rover cv's. The only option for larger cv's are later cruisers e.g. 80 and 105 series, or the even harder to use 101 fronts.

Is this to say that the 80/105 cv's can be adapted to the nissan or rover?

[Bush65]

Also People have said about welding the flanges once back together I would just like to remind people just so no one makes a mistake that once welded or tacked etc etc remember its going to be near impossible to change any seals once this has been done especially if your on a trip and no grinding device is present!!!

John.
It's interesting that the bolts are of a different appearance (single hex) compared to as you have stated 12point or double hex with a collar like my later ones,what is the tensile strength for the bolts used on the earlier ones ?
The earlier rover diff had SAE Grade 5, 3/8" UNF bolts. Their strength (SAE Grade 5) is comparable to ISO Property Class 8.8.

With UNF bolts, SAE Grade 8 is readily available. I don't have my bolt hanbooks and Standards with me, so I can't confirm if Grade 8 is comparable to Class 10.9 or 12.9 and I don't want to go from memory.

However I do know that Grade 8 is the highest strength in any of the Standards for imperial bolts. Now Unbrako socket head cap screws are Class 12.9 and readily available, but the strongest bolts in the world (sorry can't remember the manufacturer, but I have a catalogue - not with me) as a stock line are called Grade 9 - these have the strength of Grade 9 if the Standards were to be extended to include such a high strength - so this make me think that Grade 8 is stronger than Class 10.9, but may be a bit less than Class 12.9

[justinc]

The earlier rover diff had SAE Grade 5, 3/8" UNF bolts. Their strength (SAE Grade 5) is comparable to ISO Property Class 8.8.

With UNF bolts, SAE Grade 8 is readily available. I don't have my bolt hanbooks and Standards with me, so I can't confirm if Grade 8 is comparable to Class 10.9 or 12.9 and I don't want to go from memory.

However I do know that Grade 8 is the highest strength in any of the Standards for imperial bolts. Now Unbrako socket head cap screws are Class 12.9 and readily available, but the strongest bolts in the world (sorry can't remember the manufacturer, but I have a catalogue - not with me) as a stock line are called Grade 9 - these have the strength of Grade 9 if the Standards were to be extended to include such a high strength - so this make me think that Grade 8 is stronger than Class 10.9, but may be a bit less than Class 12.9

I do believe this is correct, yes.

JC

[isuzurover]

... so this make me think that Grade 8 is stronger than Class 10.9, but may be a bit less than Class 12.9

All the info I have shows 150000 psi (= 1034 MPa) tensile strength for Grade 8, and 1040 MPa for Class 10.9.

Grade 9, or bolts listed as "high strength grade 8" are listed as 170000 psi = 1172 MPa, so about the same as 1220 MPa listed for Class 12.9.

[crash]

Probably one of the toughest housings built in Australia, can have built with Ford F350 parts. The current Dirtcomp magazine has an article on them as well.
Ruff Stuff Housing (http://www.dragtec.com.au/product.php?id_product=10)

[uninformed]

Probably one of the toughest housings built in Australia, can have built with Ford F350 parts. The current Dirtcomp magazine has an article on them as well.
Ruff Stuff Housing (http://www.dragtec.com.au/product.php?id_product=10)

Ruffstuff is an all American company. I'm guessing dragtec are just importing. Ruffstuff have been working on a rover front housing for the Israeli military. I have suggested the sixty9 many times for a rear upgrade as the d60 and sals so close, you could make it a full rover drop in.

[isuzurover]

... I'm guessing dragtec are just importing. ...

given the text and images on this siteare identical... looks like you are right.
Axle Housings - RuffStuff Specialties (http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/AxleHousings.html)

[uninformed]

just had a flick through the dirtcomp mag. I saw the article and noticed they talk about housing thickness. The Ruffstuff axle tube is 3.5 inch and 3/8th thick, and they say compare this to a Nissan of 3mm thick and others as little as 1.6mm thick. BS! there is no way the axle tube on any solid alxe housing is 3mm or 1.6mm thick, yes the diff cover area maybe, but not the tubing which they are alluding to.

God I hate Journolism....:mad:

[c.h.i.e.f]

That is BS as the thickness of the rover housing is around 6mm thick stupid idiots...