Choosing a Defender ?

[DeanoH]

I am thinking of buying a Defender but need some information to help me refine my Defender model search criteria.
I have a window of opportunity here, SWMBO's off OS for 5 weeks and now is the time to strike, err..............i'll have more non interupted time to consider the options :). (paulk if you read this, not a word.)

Seriously though, I've owned Series II & III , RRC and P38a and we've SWMBO's D2a. The kids have inherited the RRC and I've the OKA but my knees are detiorating and it's increasingly difficult to 'climb' into the OKA so i am thinking about 'downsizing' to something more easily accessable.

What I'm thinking about is a 130, but as I'm of an 'older' generation I havn't totally taken on board the 'benefits' of 'electronickery'. In short I'm an old fart who would rather have an old technology diesel and though I enjoyed my P38a I'm not blind to its weak points, diffs included. Did LR make a 130 dual cab 300 TDi with salisbury type diffs in a 5 speed manual ? or am I going to have to make compromises or build a vehicle. I/we travel extensively off road in remote areas and reliability/strength is very important.
Without re-igniting a 200/300 TDi vs TD5 vs Puma engine bonfire I am concerned though regarding the various 300TDi head failure posts. Has this engine reached its used by date ? Is the gearbox as weak as some would suggest ? What needs to be done to achieve strong axles ?
These are all things I need to know before taking the plunge and would appreciate some non 'rose coloured glasses' information.

Thanks Deano:)

[tonic]

My mates 130 and my 110 both 98 have both had heads at around 225k. Talking to Alli Sport in the UK, they suggest that the radiator is at minimum capacity to cool the engine in our temps. On top of that, I have read in here that the temp gauge is unreliable and everyone seems to recommend a digital temp gauge. During my refurbishment I intend to put in a bigger capacity radiator from Alli Sport or similar and a digital temp gauge. Would go maxi drive from MR for diff axle. Having taken 2 years to buy one, expect to spend a bit to do it up to new standards.

[Summiitt]

My 3 work utes are all defenders, and all are loaded to the max and driven hard including off road forestry work, they are a 97 110 cab chassis (460,000km),a 2003 130 cab chassis td5(160,000km) and a 2011 130 cab chassis(68,000km) all have been very reliable, but I am really impressed with the old tdi 110, in that time I've done 2 clutches, 1 injector pump, put maxi drive shafts/flanges in the diffs and a few oil seals here and there, but it has never ever failed to start or not got me or one of my guys home, as for gearboxes, never had a drama, and we do a lot of towing..hope this info helps.

[PAT303]

I've got both a Tdi and TDCi and I'm the worlds biggest Tdi fan but the TDCi is better in every way,my next defender will be a 130 TDCi.Forget the electric's and the doomsday talk,I've had two common rail electric vehicles and I live in the outback and niether have given me a hint of trouble,too many people talk crap based on rumour,opinion or hersay, not on experience or knowledge. Pat

[Allan]

We've got both TD5 and Puma, but for me and S.H.M.B.O. the Puma is the best.The Puma is just that little bit better, better performance, better air, better heating, better ride, better T.C. etc.etc. Allan

[camel_landy]

Did LR make a 130 dual cab 300 TDi with salisbury type diffs in a 5 speed manual?

Yes. :D


Without re-igniting a 200/300 TDi vs TD5 vs Puma engine bonfire I am concerned though regarding the various 300TDi head failure posts. Has this engine reached its used by date ? Is the gearbox as weak as some would suggest ? What needs to be done to achieve strong axles ?

Don't be concerned, on the internet you will only hear problems, never the nice stuff. The 300TDi is pretty much bomb proof and the R380 is a strong box.

Usual things apply, look after it & it'll be fine. The only thing to make sure is that the gearbox is using the correct oil as the original spec (which LR later changed) for ATF it too thin.

The main thing that causes failures of the gearbox/axles is driving it like a knob, revving & dropping the clutch, etc... This snatches the drive train & can cause the premature failures.

Drive sympathetically and you shouldn't have problems. However, if you're still paranoid, a set of Maxi rear axles is more than you'll ever need.

HTH

M

[ugu80]

My 2c. Once the maxidrive gear is fitted to the rear, consider a detroit (locker or LSD) or such for the rear. I have a 300tdi and the detroit transforms its offroad ability, and I don't mean tearing up tracks with balloon tyres sort of thing, it allows you to do just about anything you used to do at a far gentler pace (less stress on the drive train, less stress on tracks). The latest detroits are almost unnoticable in operation, all the noise and banging and tales of old have been engineered out.

[DeanoH]

Thank you all for the information, so far so good. A bit of explanatory info and some more questions (sorry) :).

Regarding my preference for a 300TDi over a more 'modern' engine, the problem is more me than Land Rover. I just sleep easier when I'm somewhere remote knowing that the vehicle is a 'non-electronic' one. Probably quite irrational considering we've had SWMBO's Td5 Disco all over the place and the only electronic failures have been the bloody auto inhibitor switch (5 times), which wouldn't be a problem with a manual anyway. Though its never stranded us off road. One of the reasons I bought the OKA was because of its lack of electronics and the feeling of 'simplistic reliability' it gives.
I would probably go with the maxi drive option and assume something like Dana Spicer Power Lok LSD's would be available ? I have these both ends in the OKA and find them to be smooth and seamless in operation. I fully agree with ugu80 here, a lot less stress on the vehicle, track and driver. Definitely set and forget, though with the lighter 130 I would probably not have one in the front for fear of 'steering on' problems. Comments ?

Looking through 'carsales' there are no 130's for sale from 2000-2008. Is this just coincidence or weren't they imported during this period ?

All Defenders listed (92-99) show as 5 speed, is this right, I'm sure I've seen 4 speed models advertised before ?

Are there any important improvements in the 300 TDi that may not be noticable to a 'Defender newby' ? ie. is one model year better/worse than another ?

Thanks again Deano:)

[PAT303]

The trouble with going to a Tdi is it's age,it might be easier to fix than a TDCi but a 15 year old vehicle is going to have more problems than a new one regardless of the non electrics simply because it's 15 years old.I had that problem with mine,spend some coin on it to bring it up to standard or buy a TDCi,it won't matter how much you pay it's still an old vehicle so I bought new. Pat

[bcj]

u'r tdi's are all 5 speed, later 300tdi's r380 box had output gear upgrade to reduce wear on mainshaft
Rural fire here in Nsw are selling of 130's occasionally with low k"s if u'r lucky to find one, gotta watch auctions

Brett

110 300tdi

[newhue]

DeanoH, to find a 130 tdi is a long game of patience, they do come along but are usually well used. Good ones seemed to be kept.

IMO if any front axel aid was to be installed, a "soft locker" as they are known would be a good choice. True-trac by mob who do Detroit, or Ashcroft's ATB. They are effectively Limited slip diffs.

[ugu80]

IMO if any front axel aid was to be installed, a "soft locker" as they are known would be a good choice. True-trac by mob who do Detroit, or Ashcroft's ATB. They are effectively Limited slip diffs.

They do affect the steering in low traction situations (mud, sand, river stones). You turn the wheel and the LSD tends to plough straight ahead.

[DeanoH]

The trouble with going to a Tdi is it's age,it might be easier to fix than a TDCi but a 15 year old vehicle is going to have more problems than a new one regardless of the non electrics simply because it's 15 years old.................................. Pat

Exactly :(.

The problem is Iunderstand how every part of my 4WD works and this gives me piece of mind when I'm a long way from support. It's a major leap of faith for me to rely on a vehicle in which I know I've got no hope of fault diagnosis / repair. May not be an issue for most but the safety considerations / worry is something I need, or feel I need to take seriously. Just being able to jump on the HF or satphone to whistle up help feels irresponsible not to mention very expensive.

Essentially, my head tells me go new or near new, ie. TDCi, do it once and it will last me out and with the benefit of a bit of luxury. (I don't really need air flaps under the windscreen). But my heart tells me go old style then at least I've control on the outcome, even if wearing a Tdi hair shirt.

Other issue is cost. Roughly $60K new, $40K 4 yo, $20K 10yo and cheaper,
and while cheaper is good it is not always the least expensive.:)

Thanks again for the input

Deano:)

[tonic]

The trouble with going to a Tdi is it's age,it might be easier to fix than a TDCi but a 15 year old vehicle is going to have more problems than a new one regardless of the non electrics simply because it's 15 years old.I had that problem with mine,spend some coin on it to bring it up to standard or buy a TDCi,it won't matter how much you pay it's still an old vehicle so I bought new. Pat

I agree with Pat for the most part, except that, a newby although I have not looked would be between what, 50 60? Then you start adding extras.

I paid 12k for my 98 110, I have a budget of 20k to bring it back up to scratch, including some nice things. Even if I blow out by 5k(found a few more nice things[bigwhistle]), I'm still only in for 37k. This way I also get what I want and know I can fix it myself.

When I went looking I knew I was buying a shell. As Pat quite correctly said, 15 years old.

For me it is also part of the adventure, build the truck and go.

[brendanm]

After owning a TD5, I upgraded to a Puma130. The TD5 was quite modified and could go most places, though was a bit brittle. The sale of the TD5 funded mods to the Puma. I have now clocked up 120k of some of the hardest tracks Australia has to offer from the high country to the Cape. Having new car reliability backed by factory warranty gives great piece of mind. The gearing in the Puma will crawl the steepest inclines or coast the open road with ease. The TD5 revs higher on open road and wants to stall if the revs drop below 1500rpm. Bottom line so often is dollars. Though to build a car, could the same satisfaction/ ownership value be gained from customising a solid base unit rather than a ground up rebuild and be back on the tracks sooner.

[DeanoH]

...........................................
For me it is also part of the adventure, build the truck and go.

I've done this over the years. First the SIIA then the SIII then the RRC then a Troopy and a Jeep even the OKA. A lot of money can be saved buying a run down or broken 4WD and then re-building/fixing it up. And at the end of it you know EXACTLY what you've got. But the 'gloss' of re-building wears off after a while and it's a real delight to buy a 4WD that actually needs nothing done at all. Was like this with the P38a and SWMBO's D2a. Nice but boring.
Might even buy a 300 Tdi 110 and make it how I want for my run around and a 'decent' 130 TDCi to set up as our 'camper' tourer :D. I wonder if Pat's moved on enough from his old under powered noisy uncomfortable 110 to let it go for a song ?;):D. Just thinking of the possible route(s) home from Newman is pure bliss.

Deano:)

[PAT303]

Mate my Tdi is going to my Boss,he has been hounding me for over 6 months to sell it and it has been sitting in the drive doing nothing,I really don't have a need for a Tdi,TDCi and Prado,our new 150 Prado is turning up in 6 weeks,really looking forward to that!!!,overpriced,overrated POS.So I'm spending a bit of coil to make it presentable and the old girl will find a new home.The memories will stay. Pat

[DeanoH]

Well I've bought a Defender. Not a fancy new one but an older 130 Tdi. Ultimately I'll probably go for a near new TDCi twin cab to replace the OKA, but for the time being I'll have a play with this.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/666.jpg

1995 Land Rover Defender 130 Tdi, one owner, 319,000 Km.

Couldn't help myself, well actually I did help myself. Body and interior are in really good condition. Tray finishes at the end of the chassis and comes with a frame (upside down in photo) and good canvas canopy as well as the drop sides.
Has been a 'farm' ute for the last few years and has been a bit neglected. A lot of little things need doing. No lights working at all!, tie rod end (at least one), drivers seat upholstery etc. A bit of a general clean-up.
Drives and runs OK, nothing obviously wrong, rear pinion seal doesn't leak!:o, no leaks from swivel pin housings , uni's and rear drive shaft OK, rear springs are doubled, an inner and an outer (like double valve springs), is this normal ?, engine bay was absolutely filthy. Gerni'd up OK (removed cover for clean up).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1163.jpg

But underneath the engine, well, lets say it will NEVER rust. There is obviously an engine oil leak somewhere and has been for a long time. Rocker cover has been leaking but Gerni'd up OK, but underneath is very 'carbon rich' , lucky not to be included in the Governments top 1000 :D. I reckon it's a small leak for a long time as oposed to a large leak, I'll Gerni it up tomorrow and have a look.

Oil is pretty black and needs changing. I've got (at least) 20 litres of SAE 30 motor oil and I was thinking of replacing the oil with this and 'Wynn's Engine Flush" with a Z89, run for half an hour and replace with HD oil filter and Castrol RX Super. Will the mono 30 be OK or is this a bad idea ?

These are probably the first of many questions, for which I apologise in advance. I've no idea what the engine life is of a 130 Tdi ( I just hope it's not 320K Km :)). There are a number of parts (hopefully minor) that I will need to obtain, I can use eBay but I feel it would be 'proper' to support fellow forum members/supporters as a first option. I would appreciate a bit of direction here but don't know if this comes under 'touting for business' or such, if so a PM would be good.

A couple of issues that I know of

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1164.jpg

Drivers door needs a internal door handle

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1165.jpg

This ones a bit more interesting, the 'joining strip' has come adrift and moved, havn't had a good look yet, is this a common problem/solution?

Though on the plus side, this is good I figure.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1166.jpg

The previous owner had an over heating problem 10 years ago when this hose met the pulley and lost! Head gasket etc at the time but still looks a bit dodgy. Even with a new hose, is it likely to happen again ?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1167.jpg

As for the electricals, that's tomorrows entertainment. No headlights or side lights, no blinkers, got the brake light going (blown fuse). The front BIG fuse is missing from the fuse panel near the heater, looks like a 30 Amp, but a wiring diagram would be handy. Are these on line somewhere or do I need to buy/obtain a manual for this ?

The brakes need a fair bit of pedal pressure, they work fine, but I'm unsure if this is a vac pump or booster problem or just normal. Do these have 'heavy' brakes?

Sorry for all the questions :confused: but I'm looking forward to getting this 'on the road' and could use a bit of advice.

Thanks
Deano:D:D:D

[Summiitt]

Great ute, yep all 130s run an inner helper coil on the rear, it also looks like they have put some maxi drive flanges on the axles...

[towe0609]

That was good buying for they $ I reckon, I nearly headed out there to look myself. Good luck with it.

[PAT303]

Personally I'd start again,out with the rad,rodded or at that age replace,new viscous/belts/hoses,water pump and thermostat,don't think about it just do,timing belt/gears/tensioner and front cover,again don't argue just do,valve set,do the oil twice,run up 500K's and change again and again if you can see sludge looking down throught the filler cap,do all the fluids including the brake and clutch and check the rear PTO cover on the transfer to see if the splines are worn,from memory the upgraded gear came in '96.I'd pull the hubs and repack the bearings,seals etc.Spend the time and money now,it'll work out much cheaper. Pat

[Judo]

Nice purchase DeanoH. I've got a 95 TDI in a Disco. I'm no mechanic and have learnt most things from the forums here (so I'm just giving back what I learnt!), but I reckon Pat is on the money for a TDI. I would add an Elring head gasket if it's done more than 200,000 since last one.

I've done about half of all listed above (my TDI is low kms). I bought a few things off ebay (Eg. hose kits) and quite a lot from Karcraft in Sydney. They seem to have decent enough prices, decent postage prices to VIC and stock everything in genuine + aftermarket brands. They also have a price list (something like 100 pages) of just LR parts. I'd recommend getting a copy, even just for reference purposes. I can send you the last copy I received, but probably best to just email them and ask for the latest.

Karcraft Australia Pty Ltd (http://www.karcraft.com.au)

If you can wait a week or two, some stuff will be the cheapest buying from the UK. The major thing I bought from the UK was the timing belt kit that came with everything you need for the job (except for cam and crank seals if you change them as well - bought them local).

Land Rover Spares and Parts Direct (http://www.lrdirect.com/)

[wally]

Personally I'd start again,out with the rad,rodded or at that age replace,new viscous/belts/hoses,water pump and thermostat,don't think about it just do,timing belt/gears/tensioner and front cover,again don't argue just do,valve set,do the oil twice,run up 500K's and change again and again if you can see sludge looking down throught the filler cap,do all the fluids including the brake and clutch and check the rear PTO cover on the transfer to see if the splines are worn,from memory the upgraded gear came in '96.I'd pull the hubs and repack the bearings,seals etc.Spend the time and money now,it'll work out much cheaper. Pat

Agreed. And while you're doing all that, don't forget the "P" gasket.

[DeanoH]

Thankyou everyone for your input.

My first priority is roadworthy, and basic maintenance. To this end todays exercise was air, fuel and oil X2 filters. Drained the old oil, replaced filter and put through 2 lots of SAE30 with Wynns engine clean running each for 1 hour between changes. Finally filled up with the last of my Castrol RX Super with a new oil filter.

Major Gerni exercise underneath, very messy. Turns out the oil leak was from a finger tight oil filter, easy fix. It was 'raining' lightly underneath, with a bit of sleuthing this was isolated to the plastic water 'header tank', tomorrows exercise will be to sort this out. Maybe a bit of 'plastic welding' with a soldering iron and a cable tie ?! No other leaks I could see, nipped up the sump bolts out of spite and that was it.

I figure the vacuum pumps on the drivers side of the engine down low under the air cleaner? One thing I did notice (whilst looking for oil leaks) was a 'leak', just perceptible on the gasket or diaphragm on the cover of this 'appendage', will check my downloaded manual later. Maybe nipping up the cover retaining screws might make my brakes better? Another day.

A further bit of good news, the previous owner was concerned that the steering box was knackered and would need (very expensive) replacement. I don't think this is the case (now that I've blown all the black gunk away). The drop arm lower ball joint is stuffed as is the adjacent upper panhard rod bush?. I reckon this will fix most of the steering slack:).

Re lighting, from a zero start, I've now got brake lights, instrument, tail and front parking lights. Headlight flash works but no low/high beam. Managed to repair the crappy headlight switch, what a POS. Might stick relays in tomorrow to do the job right. Reckon the dip switch will be the problem but will know more tomorrow.

Thanks all

Deano:)

[DeanoH]

Great ute, yep all 130s run an inner helper coil on the rear, it also looks like they have put some maxi drive flanges on the axles...

Not only the flanges, according to the owner, axles as well.:D

Deano:)