Traction Control

[Flaps]

I went out 4bing on the weekend for the first time this year and what seem let me down was traction control or lack of it. i had the back left tire off the ground and only got wheel spin from the front right and back left isn't traction control meant to come in and brake the spinning wheel.

Can u adjust the traction control so it brakes harder or do i need to fork out more cash and buy some better brakes.

[miky]

I went out 4bing on the weekend for the first time this year and what seem let me down was traction control or lack of it. i had the back left tire off the ground and only got wheel spin from the front right and back left isn't traction control meant to come in and brake the spinning wheel.

Can u adjust the traction control so it brakes harder or do i need to fork out more cash and buy some better brakes.

The traction control should use the abs system to brake a wheel if it lifts off like your back left.
Mine works perfectly (2010 Puma waggon), awesome.

What vehicle do you have - year and model.

Mike

[trumby]

Had a defender 2001 td5 use to go on the sand a fair bit with mt bf goodys' would get stuck all the time. So one day, I pulled out fuse number 17 or 7 can't remember, never got stuck for the next 5 years burn your traction control only good on gravel I say!

[Flaps]

i got a 2004 td5 defender. Man i got out done by my brothers jeep on the weekend cause it wasn't working. Man i feel like an idiot. Im sure it can do better.

[scarry]

Centre diff lock was in?

[MR LR]

With the centre diff lock in you won't need it in sand, unless you are cocking opposite wheels all the time, even still it should brake the ones with no traction and send power to the ones with it.

[Flaps]

yea i was out in the mud i always use the center diff lock if it looks slippery. Do u know if u can turn the traction control up so that it brakes harder.

[goingbush]

The Td5 Traction control only works across one axle - YOU MUST have the Center diff lock engaged.

On a Puma it works across both axles together,

But in either car I think you are nuts if you don't engage the CDL,
Both for the longevity of the driveline & to stop you making the LandRover look bad in front of your Toyata mates.

You guys have no idea how much stress the Traction control, puts on your diff side gears & all that chattering is wearing out all the splines. No wonder Puma diffs are not lasting.

Below is a bit off topic but the guys opinion of the effect of Traction Control on a Rover diff should be noted. (I upgraded my Defender open diffs to Eaton (Detroit) TrueTracs )

This Quote is from an email I got from CEO, Great Basin Rovers, Utah


In my opinion, upgraded axle shafts/CV joints are strictly optional when running Truetracs. First Land Rover axles and CV joints are not as bad as many people think. Second, since a TT is a limited slip they do not stress out axle shafts nearly as much as fully locking differentials and they bias torque in a very smooth and controlled manner unlike a hard ratcheting type of system. CV joints don't like shock loads so if you are a finesse driver and run TT's you won't have much problem with them. Another advantage of TT's especially in 2 pinion Rover diffs is they are massively more durable. The lifespan of a Rover diff with traction control engaged is between 30 minutes and 1 hour! The pulsing literally starts to dissolve the two spider gears. If you have used traction control a lot and want to do a quick check on the condition of your diff is to drain the gear oil and pay attention to the color when it first comes out. If it is silver as I describe it, this is your spider gears returning to their elemental state!

So guys, engage your CDL, its a basic off road driving skill !!

[Flaps]

Man that's good to know might have to get me some truetracs just had a look on the net not that expensive. That might have to be the next upgrade.

[OffTrack]

I know it's a bizarre concept, but have you tried driving the conditions using the technique LR recommend in the Owners Manual for slippery surfaces?

CDL locked, select as high a gear as possible, and use minimum throttle possible.

The idea is to keep power sent to the wheels below the level that will break traction so you maintain forward drive. LR seem to develop the driver aids like traction control as an enhancement of the techniques they recommend so in theory at least you'll get the best results driving in the LR style.

Tom Sheppards "The Land Rover Experience (2nd Ed)" (http://clickserve.cc-dt.com/link/tplclick?lid=41000000024289215&pubid=21000000000532625&cm_ven=PFX&cm_cat=affiliates&cm_pla=dlt&cm_ite=21000000000532625&redirect=http%3A//www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults%3Fbi%3Dh%26bx%3Doff%26ds%3D30%26isbn %3D0951449346%26sortby%3D15) (link to listings on ABE Books) from 1994 gives excellent coverage of the rationale behind the driving techniques recommended in the Owner Manual, including some great material on the horizontal and vertical strength of surfaces.

[djam1]

The Td5 Traction control only works across one axle - YOU MUST have the Center diff lock engaged.

On a Puma it works across both axles together,



Not wanting to be argumentative but I cant see how that this the case
This TD5 Traction control appears to work on both axles
I am not disagreeing about the locking of the centre diff though
The Best Defender video ever made - YouTube

[landy]

At the risk of highjacking the thread- Fit lockers of some sort, Preferably Air Lockers (IMO) You won't regret it. By the time the traction control has worked out it is needed you would have engaged the locker before the obstacle and driven though, round or over it.

Nino.

[superquag]

I thought you were'nt allowed to read the Handbook if you wanted to be a Real Man....:p

[Blknight.aus]

The Td5 Traction control only works across one axle - YOU MUST have the Center diff lock engaged.



bzzt, sorry, but dont worry a consolation prize is coming your way....

check your pads and rotors. if the pads are glazed, the rotors polished or either contaminated you can wind up in this exact situation.

as its a 2001. unless its been rebrained it will have the early TC so you need to be a bit more agressive to get it to work properly. That Said.

TC is a warning that you are approaching the limits of the native capability of the vehicle, nothing more.

[OffTrack]

Not wanting to be argumentative but I cant see how that this the case
This TD5 Traction control appears to work on both axles
I am not disagreeing about the locking of the centre diff though


With the CDL locked TC works across each axle. TC is still working on both front and rear axle, but only compares the speed of wheels on the same axle. So wheel spin on the front axle doesn't influence the behaviour of the TC on the rear axle.

[OffTrack]

I thought you were'nt allowed to read the Handbook if you wanted to be a Real Man....:p

I suppose that is the reason Real Men try to drive a Land Rover like a Land Cruiser, and why they hate Traction Control :D

[goingbush]

With the CDL locked TC works across each axle. TC is still working on both front and rear axle, but only compares the speed of wheels on the same axle. So wheel spin on the front axle doesn't influence the behaviour of the TC on the rear axle.

EXACTLY -- That is what I was trying to say, but you said it more eloquently.

[goingbush]

At the risk of highjacking the thread- Fit lockers of some sort, Preferably Air Lockers (IMO) You won't regret it. By the time the traction control has worked out it is needed you would have engaged the locker before the obstacle and driven though, round or over it.

Nino.

Actually the perfect diff for cars equipped with traction control is the Eaton (detroit) Truetrac , Not to be confused with the Detroit Locker.

I reckon it better than a Manual difflock because its operation is seamless , quiet, gradual and much nicer on your axles and driveline, and totally benign when on the highway.

Truetrac and Traction control compliment each other.

good value too the front inc bearings was $634 au to my door
and the rear (Salisbury) inc bearings & shim kit was $925 ($300 of that was shipping)

some info here http://www.alljeep.com/tech/install/8.8_true_trac/8-8_true_trac.htm

When I get into a situation where my diagonal opposite wheels are off the ground & car is teetering, It just keeps driving, I can not even hear the Traction Control operate, Same situation before the car (TD5 110) would sit there for about 5 seconds before the brain engaged & the car would grind its way forward.

[Naks]

No wonder Puma diffs are not lasting.

Rubbish!

My Puma is now 2yrs old with barely 31,000km on the clock. Of that, we have done 3 mild off-road trails (2 sand, one rocky), with TC barely kicking in. In fact, I can count the number of times TC has kicked in when we are off-road on one hand - CDL is always locked and tyres deflated.

The rear diff was replaced a couple of months ago and so was the gearbox.

So no, it can't be the TC causing all these diff failures ;)

[Blknight.aus]

I actually think I have a valid line on why the puma back diff and and rear Tcase outputs are not lasting...

And you're not going to believe it But if what I think I've found is correct, Landrover has already visited and solved this problem previously.

Check out the angles on the rear shaft flanges and the shaft phasing.

[PAT303]

Going on the video posted above I would like to see ANY non Land Rover showroom standard 4wd drive through the obstical at the 2 minute 10 sec mark,anyone who thinks TC doesn't work might like to take a look.A standard Defender with two wheels unloaded and she doesn't miss a beat,and to think the TDCi is better again,but hey,all that electdickery is evil I tell's ya,evil. Pat

[Flaps]

That video is where me and my bro went mundaring power line track and my car defenently didn't behave as good as his but mind u it was extremely muddy when i was out there. At the 24 sec mark in the video is where i got stuck but i was going up not down but it doesn't quiet look the same its more rutted out at the moment. It could be that i haven't got muddies on my car most of the cars i went with couldn't get up there.

[PAT303]

I'd like a day thier. Pat

[goingbush]

Rubbish!

My Puma is now 2yrs old with barely 31,000km on the clock. Of that, we have done 3 mild off-road trails (2 sand, one rocky), with TC barely kicking in. In fact, I can count the number of times TC has kicked in when we are off-road on one hand - CDL is always locked and tyres deflated.

The rear diff was replaced a couple of months ago and so was the gearbox.

So no, it can't be the TC causing all these diff failures ;)

Yeah, Fair enough
I think Blknight might be onto something

[goingbush]

I actually think I have a valid line on why the puma back diff and and rear Tcase outputs are not lasting...

And you're not going to believe it But if what I think I've found is correct, Landrover has already visited and solved this problem previously.

Check out the angles on the rear shaft flanges and the shaft phasing.

I think a solution might be to shorten the trailing arms by an inch,
that way the diff pinion & TC shaft will be on the same relative plane & solve the problem.
But will Puma drivers will want to be getting around in 109's :o

[Loubrey]

That video is where me and my bro went mundaring power line track and my car defenently didn't behave as good as his but mind u it was extremely muddy when i was out there. At the 24 sec mark in the video is where i got stuck but i was going up not down but it doesn't quiet look the same its more rutted out at the moment. It could be that i haven't got muddies on my car most of the cars i went with couldn't get up there.

Muddies does obviously make a huge difference (and not all muddies are the same either) and remember that lower pressure in your tyres are not just for the beach.

That said, the clay on the powerlines track has a particularly high plasticity (increasing tendency to be slippery when wet) and you often get a very slick surface with a consistency of pottery clay that no muddie will be able to grip on, especially uphill through an obstacle.

Pat,

Definitely worth a day out if you ever have your Deefer in Perth. Most obstacles have one or two grades and an escape route, so vehicle damage can always be avoided. You’ll always get a couple of the Perth guys to come along if you post on here!

[PAT303]

Tracks like that are what I like,I'm not interested in modded vehicles jumping up rocks. Pat

[DeanoH]

This Quote is from an email I got from CEO, Great Basin Rovers, Utah
Quote:
In my opinion, upgraded axle shafts/CV joints are strictly optional when running Truetracs. First Land Rover axles and CV joints are not as bad as many people think. Second, since a TT is a limited slip they do not stress out axle shafts nearly as much as fully locking differentials and they bias torque in a very smooth and controlled manner unlike a hard ratcheting type of system. CV joints don't like shock loads so if you are a finesse driver and run TT's you won't have much problem with them. Another advantage of TT's especially in 2 pinion Rover diffs is they are massively more durable. The lifespan of a Rover diff with traction control engaged is between 30 minutes and 1 hour! The pulsing literally starts to dissolve the two spider gears. If you have used traction control a lot and want to do a quick check on the condition of your diff is to drain the gear oil and pay attention to the color when it first comes out. If it is silver as I describe it, this is your spider gears returning to their elemental state!



Have I missed something here, are we talking 2 'spider gears' here as opposed to 4 ?:o


Deano:)

[Blknight.aus]

2 pinion?

its a 4 gear diff, 2 side gears and 2 spiders on a common cross pin, Same basic design as the first diff with about the same metalurgy as put in the model T by Henry Ford....

Hang about, you dont suppose they're just unloading more left over, surplus ford stuff?

[Flaps]

i tested my tc today and all was no good has anyone else tested with hawkeye. it sounded like the valves were opening and closing but when i tested wheel lock they would not lock up. any help

[camel_landy]

I know it's a bizarre concept, but have you tried driving the conditions using the technique LR recommend in the Owners Manual for slippery surfaces?

CDL locked, select as high a gear as possible, and use minimum throttle possible.

What it boils down to is this:

* What causes wheel spin? - Torque!
* What do you get more of in low gears? - Torque!
* 1st Low = Maximum torque.

Too much torque and you just end up with bucket loads of wheel spin... Which is utterly useless on a loose surface unless you want to look like a right plonker! :p

Selecting a higher gear, reduces the amount of torque at the wheels. That's where the advice in the manual comes from & it is what we teach.

The other thing to bear in mind is that if you're putting too much power down, even Traction Control isn't going to help you. The TC is going to respond to the wheel spin, stopping the spinning wheel and sending the power to the wheel with more grip. However, if you're sending too much power then all that's going to happen is that you're just going to spin up that wheel too! You need to find that 'sweet spot'.

As for the diffs... From my observations over the years, I wouldn't be surprised to find that driving styles are a contributing factor! Gunning the throttle & bouncing the car on the clutch is a sure fire way of causing premature failure!

M

[camel_landy]

TC is a warning that you are approaching the limits of the native capability of the vehicle, nothing more.

...or you're driving like a plonker!!

When we're teaching: TC = Talent Control... When you run out of driving talent, the car has to take control. ;)

M